The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
I won't take up space for it here, but wanted to share a post from my blog: Slants and Slopes and Can'ts.
:::posted by Keith Brenton on 3/29/2005 08:37:00 PM
Kirk,
Please know that your words were encouraging to more than just Katie and Lance. Thank you for sharing.
I was blessed more than I can say.
:::posted by Irie on 3/24/2005 07:08:00 PM
Many thanks, Kirk, for those gracious words. You articulate your movement down this path of faith in much the same way I eventually will, I think. I love the freedom your status as an "outsider" (from the C of C perspective) gives you to congratulate us for moving while at the same time embracing those who choose to stay.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 3/23/2005 08:31:00 PM
Katie and Lance,
It has been a few months since I last checked the postings on this forum. It seems that a lot of changes are underway here!
Although your story is unique, some pieces of it sound like my own.
On October 21, 1973 I was baptized into the non-instrumental Church of Christ, the church of my parents and maternal grandparents. As I went through my teen years, I was curious to learn why the Church of Christ was so different from other denominations. I eagerly studied its history and made a point of visiting other churches of the Stone-Campbell heritage. On August 7, 1983 I walked down the aisle and transferred my membership into a Disciples of Christ congregation.
It is not appropriate for me to share all of the reasons why I switched, but the issue of gender justice was consciously a part of my decision, even as a 19-year-old male. Visiting a Disciples church for the first time, I was struck by the active role women played as elders, deacons, and teachers. Then going back to my non-instrumental church, I could not understand why women were prevented from sharing their knowledge, helping make decisions, and leading in worship. When I asked questions, the Disciples pastor was very open and even gave me a book to help quench my theological thirst; the folks in the Church of Christ merely proof-texted a few hackneyed verses from St. Paul and talked about the need to maintain harmony by preserving the status quo.
Twenty-plus years later, I am certain that my transition was essential to my continued spiritual development. Without transferring, I would only have become more cynical and disillusioned and probably have dropped out of church life altogether.
There is an old hymn written by James Russell Lowell that comes to mind, and so I share Stanzas 1 and 2 below. It reflects the urgency of questions that come before us. Ironically it seems we are sometimes called to discern truth within our cozy communities of faith.
Once to every [one] and nation / Comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth with falsehood, / For the good or evil side;
Some great cause, God's new Messiah, / Offering each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever / 'Twixt that darkness and that light.
Then to side with truth is noble, / When we share her wretched crust,
Ere her cause bring fame and profit, / And 'tis prosperous to be just;
This it is the brave [one] chooses / While the coward stands aside,
Till the multitude make virtue / Of the faith they had denied.
Emotionally I feel somewhat vindicated that the church of my childhood is now beginning to struggle with its teachings about gender roles. Practically speaking, however, I agree with Lance that the pace of change and overwhelming resistance to change are discouraging. And I can understand Katie's desire to utilize her gifts in a wider-church environment that will be appreciative.
Katie and Lance, your departure will be a loss to the non-instrumental fellowship, but you are LEADING by showing you have the courage to change. Perhaps you even feel "called" to move on the way I did back in 1983.
To the rest of the bloggers here, please understand that I am not advocating a "one-size-fits-all" approach to spiritual growth. Obviously some need to stay, and some need to leave. You need to listen to what you are being called to do in your present situation.
To those who choose to stay, please give voice to what you believe. Do not be intimidated by those who presume to have authority. Ask questions. Make proposals. Get a critical mass to keep stirring the pot.
To those who decide to leave, know that there are others like myself who have already taken that path. We can affirm that God's church is more than the non-instrumental fellowship, in fact, more than the Restoration Movement tradition. And there are communities where gender justice is not a noble aspiration but a present reality.
I currently belong to a United Church of Christ (UCC) congregation that has a woman pastor and associate pastor, and in part due to their example, a young woman recently came forward and announced that she will be applying to seminary. She is now "in care" of the congregation as we suppport her in this process. I contrast this with my former non-instrumental Church of Christ, where young women today are "allowed" to pick up attendance registration cards but "not allowed" to preach, lead prayer, or even collect the offering. There is absolutely no way I would ever want to go back to that environment, and if I were a father, I would not want to expose my children to it.
I feel fortunate to be in a realm where I do not have to focus on "defending" women's equality. When called to do so, I will certainly articulate my beliefs, but today I am freed to direct my energy to other issues. Ultimately, for my spiritual grounding, I need to be in a community where justice is practiced. Commiting my time, talent, and treasure to such a community, for me, is an act of stewardship.
Kirk Imoto
Streamwood, Illinois
:::posted by R. Kirk on 3/20/2005 10:53:00 PM
I saw a headline on CNN.com tonight that caught my attention so I thought I'd share it with you. The headline read, "Women Leads Muslim Prayer Service." Here's the link if you are interested in reading it:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/18/muslim.prayer.ap/index.html
:::posted by Tracy on 3/18/2005 10:27:00 PM
Katie, much love and prayers sent your way.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/14/2005 10:11:00 AM
Friends, my apologies for being incommunicado for so long. I mind-compose paragraphs for this website all day and night, but the actual transmission of those paragraphs is blocked somehow. I can't find the will to type, edit, and click the "publish" button. But how about a short report on the mechanics of the move?
---Lance is waiting to hear dates for his accelerated German course in preparation for an exam he must pass to begin doctoral work at Emory in September 2005. So we're looking at a June 1 move, possibly, or a little earlier or a little later.
---I am applying for a job with a congregation in suburban Atlanta. It is a Disciples of Christ congregation and if God wills it, they will sponsor my "transfer of standing" whereby the Disciples of Christ will honor my ordination and allow me to continue ministry as a leaf on that branch of this big ole family tree.
---The West Islip congregation continues to be gracious in this time of transition, and they are becoming more excited about the new possibilities a new minister will bring to them.
---My little family has not been completely well since Christmas -- colds, stomach bugs, "the worst sore throat in the history of the world" being passed around... It's a difficult and busy time.
We are grateful for your prayers and well wishes. Don't let my silence here connote anything other than our own slow sorting out of the complex emotions and logistics implicit in this shift. I will write more substantially at a later time (next week?) about the whys and wherefores, or something like that.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 3/13/2005 09:25:00 AM
New Wineskins has posted a link to a RealPlayer streaming audio of Mike Cope's address "Women, Gifts and the Body of Christ" at Highland Church of Christ on January 16, 2005.
:::posted by Keith Brenton on 3/11/2005 03:18:00 PM
I also think a day of prayer is a great idea. There is so much to pray for that is relevant to this site...Lance and Katie, Chris and Chad, West Islip, Atlanta, the future of gender justice in the churches of Christ, our hearts and direction, gal328 and the forum...I could go on and on. I will post some prayer that day on this forum. If anyone else if comfortable doing that...we should just keep posting our prayers throughout the day. Thanks for keeping us posted David.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/10/2005 12:26:00 AM
I want to wish Katie and Lance and their family good luck in whatever they do and to thank them for the work that they have put in to pave the path for others.
And I want to announce to all of my friends at gal328 that I am pregnant with my second child and due at the end of September/ early October.
:::posted by Indie on 3/09/2005 11:10:00 PM
Keith,
Katie and Lance have not moved yet. They're still in West Islip. They and the West Islip church are in transition. I'll let them speak for themselves as to what they want to disclose, and when. Our church is in no particular rush to hire their successor(s), which means that applicants are still being recruited and resumes accepted.
I think the day of prayer is a great idea. I would ask that you include the West Islip church.
David Fritz
Amityville, NY
:::posted by Fritz on 3/08/2005 06:48:00 PM
I know I've only discovered this site of late, but feel a great kinship with Lance and Katie. If someone has heard from them - if they're past that great disaster that accompanies moving from one state to another - would you e-mail me at wryterkb@swbell.net and let me know how they're doing? (I like to know what I'm praying for, even though God already knows!)
And, would it be improper to suggest a day that we could set aside and pray together - perhaps even fast - for their success in a new location, for them both to find a place in God's work there, and for Chad and Chris as new caretakers of this very much-needed site/ministry? Would Friday, March 18 be a good day for that?
:::posted by Keith Brenton on 3/08/2005 05:12:00 PM
Chad and Chris have posted a new article:
A Word from the New Editors
:::posted by Lance on 3/04/2005 02:48:00 PM
Teresa,
I plan to attend the Women in Ministry Network Conference. I will also be speaking at the Pepperdine Lectures on Friday, May 6th, so I'll be there all week long.
Also, Wiley thanks for the link and the contact information for Sylvia Rose. The link didn't appear to have this years information updated yet, so I'll keep checking. Sylvia and I have been having wonderful dialogue via e-mail and telephone conversations.
Blessings,
:::posted by Irie on 3/04/2005 01:09:00 PM
My oldest daughter would like to and is really kind of planning on going if everything works out and she has a job to come back to but she probably won't have an answer on that in time for the conference and she is worried about missing any other opportunities to earn money through several other ventures she is involved in presently since money is really tight.
Grace to you and peace.
:::posted by Wiley on 3/03/2005 07:33:00 PM
Hey, I was wondering if anyone is planning on attending the Women in Ministry Network Conference at Pepperdine May 1-3?
:::posted by TKP on 3/03/2005 05:05:00 PM
Hi Irie,
You can get them online at http://www.gayloronline.com
:::posted by Wiley on 3/02/2005 11:46:00 AM
I'll leave the debate about gnosticism to those "in the know," but I do think it is worth mentioning that the scholarly consensus against Pauline authorship of the Pastorals doesn't turn on 1 Timothy 2 or the issue of gender generally; furthermore, I'm pretty sure that wasn't Don's point.
The case against Pauline authorship has to do, rather, with a range of issues throughout the epistles. Compare, for example, the use of the term "faith" in the pastorals against its use in the uncontested letters.
For the most compelling and widely respected defense of Pauline authorship, take a look at Luke Timothy Johnson.
For my own part, the issue of authorship is helpful for clarifying the meaning of the Pastorals, but should never be used as an excuse for dismissing or even marginalizing their meaning—thus the editorial caveat attached at the beginning of the article.
:::posted by Lance on 3/02/2005 10:13:00 AM
Hello All,
I'm interested in purchasing some of the tapes from the ACU lectures. What is the best way to make that happen? I went to the ACU site and couldn't quite figure out how to order any of the lecture series.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Blessings,
I
:::posted by Irie on 3/01/2005 10:52:00 PM
Hi Julie,
maybe next time? 8:30 was brutal for me, not a morning person, so no explanations necessary! I am sure that I will be in Abilene again sometime.
On Keith's blog: I am not a historian, so maybe I just need clarification on this, but I wasn't under the impression that reversal of privileged gender roles was a characteristic feature of Gnostic sects. Was this a common element to all or most Gnostic groups?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/01/2005 09:16:00 PM
I wanted to respond to Don Hayme's article 9.5 Theses, disagreeing with his ".5" conclusion that I & II Timothy and Titus were not written by the same Paul as the other epistles we call "Pauline."
Others have posited - and convincingly, I think - that the troublesome texts here may well have to do with early Gnostic beliefs which went beyond the Biblical perspective of equality between men and women and portrayed women as superior. At least two of the Gnostic texts found at Nag Hammadi, The Hypostasis of the Archons (or The Reality of the Rulers) and On the Origin of the World glorify Eve as having given life to Adam ... and credit the female goddess Sophia (Wisdom) as having created all the good things, to the consternation of the goofy lesser male gods.
Couldn't it be Paul's point here that what some dolled-up babes were teaching as truth was not welcome in the church? Not that women should generally be silent and submissive to men in all situations because that's the way it's been since Adam and Eve?
Many scholars - from admirers to detractors of Gnostic thought - agree these works were written early on in church history, and were probably preceded by oral traditions that sought to merge the Jewish biblical history with the "create-your-own-god-story" philosophy of the Greco-Roman culture. (The two citations above disagree with each other in many details, incidentally.)
I just have to wonder if the social-equality message of the gospel was so liberating in that time and culture that some people went too far with it ... perhaps some of them were the widows that Paul did not want Timothy to enroll, possibly because they had been taken in by male proponents of these Gnostic beliefs who were living off of them. That's speculation, of course, but it is speculation that happens to fit the available facts.
What do you folks think?
:::posted by Keith Brenton on 3/01/2005 08:37:00 PM
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