The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Tom: THANK YOU!! I was going crazy trying to remember her last name!! I had heard something about Michael starting a new church but that it didn't survive which is a shame. It's been difficult trying to find churches outside the CofC that share doctrine similar to ours in the essentials.
We have all but decided to leave our current CofC congregation and explore others in the area. Fortunately, living in the sprawling Phoenix valley gives several choices within the siblinghood. Unfortunately, few of them, if any, are making a stand for greater participation of women in the life of the church. We have been to visit one over a couple of Wednesday nights that shows promise, and supposedly "allows" women to participate during Sunday worship, among other things. Is anyone familiar with the Tatum Blvd. CofC in Phoenix where Christopher Green preaches? It sounds like it may be more complimentarian than egalitarian. It seems like that is as good as it is going to get unless we are willing to either leave the CofC or start our own, both options ranking low on the totem pole of excitement right now. Is it better to hold out for the real thing, or to work with a church that is nearly there? I thought I remembered Katie stating something about how churches that get this far are usually only a few years away from committing to full inclusion. At any rate, we will be worshiping there this Sunday so I will post our impressions. This will be a first for us...
Grace and peace,
Sabrina
:::posted by Sabrina on 4/30/2004 11:59:04 PM
Chad,
Six degrees? In CoC circles, I think it's more like three degrees! So how does that help or hinder the cause of gender justice?
Sabrina,
It must be Amy Bonifay you mean. She's married and living in the DC area, too. Amy and Mike Williams and several other folks from ACU and elsewhere were part of an attempted church plant in Bethesda, MD. It was not a "sign-out-front" CoC, and was considerably more gender-just than most Churches of Christ. That congregation has since disolved, and scattered its folks around the area and to several other states. We have one couple at Frederick.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 4/28/2004 10:02:36 PM
Tom: I knew Bowie didn't sound quite right! I used Mark's full name as he was known by both while at school. I grew up going to Camp Manatawny in PA with a girl from Chatham, NJ but for the life of me, I can't remember her last name right now. Her first name is Amy and she later went to ACU, as did her older sister. Jim was at Preston Rd. with his father, Bob, during the mid 80's past the time of your dad, I'm assuming.
Chad: The world becomes increasingly smaller when you play Six Degrees, does it not? If you have opportunity to speak with Christy, do tell her hello from Jim and me. Jim married her and her late husband, Brett. They were a special couple and his passing was tragic. Also, be sure to introduce yourself to her parents, Jan and Leicle, as they visit Brookline occasionally. Jan is one of my dearest friends and has commiserated with me at length over church politics and injustices. I asked Jim if he knew your grandparents, but he said he did not as they attended Trinity Oaks. (And, yes, I *did* read through the entire archives...compulsion at it's best, or would that be worst?)
Grace and peace,
Sabrina
:::posted by Sabrina on 4/28/2004 03:23:45 PM
Sabrina, after reading your post I've decided to market a "Six Degrees of Separation" game for members of Churches of Christ. I have a friend who grew up Episcopalian and now attends a Church of Christ and she is constantly amazed at our "who do you know" game...in the spirit of which, yes, I know Mark and Christy. :-) Your husband might also know my grandparents, as they've been at Preston Rd for millenia (Stanley & Tonie Scott). We're glad to have you here on the forum. (Did you really read through the entire archives?! Whew.)
Sue, come see us - that way we'll have at least two people in our classes! I can't speak for Joe, but I at least remember who you are from Zoe. :-)
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 4/28/2004 09:04:55 AM
Sabrina,
I know the Williamses of whom you speak, as they are in Frederick, not Bowie. Mike is now in California, in the LA area I believe.
We spent a couple of years in the eighties at Chatham, not far from Bridgewater. David Mark Williams (he goes by Mark now) worked for me as a summer intern in NJ while he was attending NCJC. When we moved from CA to MD in the nineties, his mom was our realtor. His dad is one of our elders.
When was your husband at Preston Road? My father taught there in the late seventies.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 4/28/2004 07:51:30 AM
Hello all!
I gave into a compulsive urge and just recently finished reading the entire archives. You've all been busy! I'm glad I did because I learned I have connections of sorts to several of you.
Patty - I graduated from NCJC in 1988, a little before your time there, but perhaps I met you at some point, as I traveled and performed with Ambassadors during my time there.
Julie - I worshipped with your brother-n-law, Ken, at the Wallingford, CT congregation just before we moved out west. You may also know the William's family. I went to school with two of their sons, David Mark and Michael. If I recall correctly, they attended a congregation in Bowie.
Chad - You may have met one of my dearest friend's daughter, who lost her husband to a rare heart defect while in flight after less than two years of marriage. She lives in Boston and attended/attends Brookline sporadically. You may also know Mark Hamilton, who I believe preached at Brookline some time ago after he left New Milford, CT, where my husband preached for several years after Mark (there was actually another preacher or two in between).
Sara - I knew your husband, John, when I was a young teen since he attended lots of functions with our youth group.
Katie and Lance - I spent several weekends as a kid out on Long Island at the Hill's Ranch, visiting with my church family the boys living there. They carry out an important work. I also understand completely, as Jen probably does now, too, the whole "what exit do you live off" thing.
There may have been other people I connected with in some way while reading through the archives, but they don't come to mind right now.
By way of introduction, my name is Sabrina (Sullivan) Pearce. I grew up attending the same CofC congregation in Bridgewater, NJ my entire life until it was time to leave for college. I spent two years at NCJC before transferring to ACU where I received my BA in Speech Pathology and met and married my husband, Jim.
After graduation, we moved to NM where Jim preached for a tiny, hub-city railroad town just outside of Albuquerque for several years. He's a graduate of Preston Rd. School of Preaching and has an undergrad degree in Bible, as well as an MA in Marriage and Family Counseling. We later moved back east and worked with a small New England town church in CT for several years, until Jim lost his desire to preach. He's an excellent teacher, but came to the hard realization he was never really "called" to preach. It wasn't his passion. He came to this country when he was 18 and, as his visa limited his choices, he decided to go through preaching school with his dad. Even though we started out on that path sort of by default and not by desire, we both would like to think that God blessed the congregations we worked with, just as they in turn blessed us. About 5 years ago, he left full-time ministry for secular work in the computer sciences, later teaching at the collegiate level, which he loves. He will be going into the Police Academy (fulfilling a life long dream) in another week or two, but will continue teaching part-time.
While we were in CT, I had heard of what the Stamford church was doing and was amazed that a Church of Christ could be so radical in their practices. I had no interest at the time in knowing how it all came about or even participating in such a church, but I remember being highly intrigued by the process they went through and gave them props for the deliberate and methodical nature in which they conducted their study. I was impressed by their scholastic integrity, if not perplexed at how they were able to reach such conclusions. And even though we tout our flag of autonomy, there is such incredible "peer pressure" to conform to accepted church doctrines, or risk being written up in the Christian Chronicle. I know they took a lot of flak.
When we came to AZ about two years ago, I met Tracy, another newbie to the forum, who posed some difficult questions for me. She told me about what had been transpiring at her former church (Bowie) and asked for my opinion. I dutifully spouted off the expected CofC party line answers, but that didn't suffice. She asked harder questions that shot crater sized holes in my pat answers, revealing to my dismay many inconsistencies in our practice of carrying out the commands of the usual proof-texts. I finally had to admit I had no good answer for her, but was willing to join her in searching for a clearer picture of truth as it no longer rang clear in the explanations I had believed up to that time.
It's been a rough and lonely process at times. I have often felt isolated from the rest of the church family because of my beliefs and frustrated that the discussion will not take place here for a great long time. A certain kind of atmosphere, one of trust and genuine interest in each other, has to be in place before an effective discussion of this nature can happen, and our congregation has too much going against it for that to happen right now. The church is a less than 5 year old planting, the eldership barely formed, and the preacher they hired less than a year ago is a rather young Christian himself, and a relatively recent graduate of your typical preaching school. We had a near riot last Christmas simply for putting forth the idea of having the children perform a Christmas play! They are definitely nowhere near ready for this type of conversation, although I would do cartwheels if the Lord should prove me wrong.
The upside is that I am able to discuss this openly with my husband without his having to worry about job security should my errant views become known. We have grown a lot together as my struggle and search to find truth is starting to become his own for overlapping reasons. We have some decisions to make regarding what sort of environment to raise our 3 daughters in, but we know for certain it's not where they are told in Children's Bible Hour "when boys and girls are together in mixed company, a boy does the praying."
Is anyone familiar with congregations in the Phoenix area that are gender just, or at least inclusive?
Grace and peace,
Sabrina
:::posted by Sabrina on 4/27/2004 11:16:34 PM
Ched,
I am going to be at Pepperdine. I will definatly look for you and Joe. I look foward to talking with you both. I am the young grandmother tagging along with my good looking, gray-bearded husband.
Blessings,
Sue
:::posted by Sue on 4/27/2004 08:09:34 PM
Chad, I would definitely come to your class if I was going to Pepperdine this year. Went last year...so good!! Maybe next year. Let us know how it goes. Last year Katie's class was great!! Meeting D'Esta Love for the first time was the highlight of my trip. She has been my hero for a very long time. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 4/27/2004 03:20:24 PM
Hello Friends -
Forgive the shameless self-promotion here...In the off chance that any bloggers will be at the Pepperdine Lectures next week, both Joe Hays and I will be doing classes. Come say hello if you get a chance!
Peace,
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 4/27/2004 12:19:17 PM
Lance,
I understand and agree with what you are saying. I think.
I began this journey, this struggle, this fight, not for myself, but for those who were following, like my daughter. I had no intention of being one of the women who were actually doing it. I have found along the way that I must, because others are afraid.
When I let my voice be heard, no matter how gently I used it, I was treated as if I wanted some kind of power, as you suggested. Phrases floated around, everything from "She wants to be a deacon," to "She wants to be a preacher." I just wanted to be free to serve God, and I wanted the gifted and talented women who surrounded me to be free to serve God.
I think the men must carry the banner when we still fight under the idea of a headship. I believe we are all equal to serve. Katie's statement, "The conversation about 'women’s role' will take about ninety seconds once you’ve slogged through the one about who we are in God’s eyes and in yours, and why there’s such a discrepancy between those two," is accurate. If we could do that, we wouldn't have to have men lead the way with baby steps. We could simply do what we are called to do.
:::posted by Vicki on 4/21/2004 12:57:25 AM
Vicki,
It’s interesting that you bring up that passage from Floyd Rose’s book. I sent my copy to a friend today and was reading a bit before I sealed it up and came across the very part you quote. I certainly respect what he’s saying there.
I actually have reservations about both my statements. Let me try to make some clarifications.
As for #1 (men should champion the cause) it does sound dangerously close to the idea that women can pray/preach/lead/whatever if and only if men authorize such activities. That is not what I mean, but I see how it could be taken that way. Nor do I mean to suggest that men should take control and fix this situation and present the attained result to the women as a gift that they should somehow be grateful for. You can’t make a gift of something that was due all along.
However, as I see it, there are several advantages that accrue when men, rather than women, carry the banner. Let me take some time to tease out just one.
The inevitable rhetorical move on the part of the status quo is to deflect attention away from compelling arguments by drawing attention to the character flaws (imagined or real) of those who would benefit most visibly from change. In a climate that is sexist by definition, it is just so easy to caricature any woman that pushes for this as a b----. The word will never be spoken, of course, but the category is deeply ingrained in our shared consciousness. And it doesn’t take much, sometimes just a raised eyebrow at the right moment to summon this monster and turn it loose against those pushing for change. I have seen it happen so many times. So, what to do?
Somebody needs to get mad. I really do believe it’s a natural law that injustice this profound just does produce/require a certain amount of righteous indignation. If men were willing to embody some of that anger, the women would be freed to direct their energies elsewhere. The nightmare scenario for the status quo is a climate in which a certain amount of righteous rage pushes the debate forward with urgency without providing any angry women as targets.
It just works when a man says: “Look at that sister; she is gifted; she is not grasping after power; she loves peace; she has something to offer.” It does not work so well when a woman says: “Look at me…”
And the beauty is that when men take a little heat by saying things like that, they actually make it much easier for the women to be all of those great Christ-like things. You can actually create space for someone to be the best that Christ’s spirit has empowered them to be when you relieve some of the suffocating fear, some of the self-doubt, some of the panic that builds when it feels like no one is willing to stick up for you.
I’m also aware that #2 (the issue is best debated in the abstract) is problematic. For example, no one really has any business making categorical statements about women not being gifted to preach until they have some concrete experience with women preaching. Or again, something as concrete as having a daughter that is getting fed up with the dissonance between the way her abilities are respected in the work place and disrespected at church can and should radically change one’s perspective on this issue. I certainly don’t intend that the whole debate should be some kind of cool, detached head-game. The “issue” is always as concrete and particular as the very real people it silences.
But at least when it comes to professional ministry, I do think it is essential that a church settle the issue completely and reach a stable peace apart from considerations about any particular candidate. That’s what I mean about settling the issue in the abstract. It is just a bad idea to let it become a debate about a particular woman. It is, frankly, cruel. Being a minister is difficult enough without the prior problem of needing to defend your right to be in the role. The role of minister is granted, not taken. Until a church can grant that role to a woman without reservation it needs to wait.
:::posted by Lance on 4/20/2004 08:41:27 PM
Lance,
Can you go into a little more detail on your statement:
"1. Men need to champion this cause. The reasons are many and obvious."
Some I understand.
But Floyd Rose said, "When the women in the Church of Christ grow weary of thir inferior status, they will rise up and change it." And he quotes MLK Jr., "...the oppressor never voluntarily gives up power. The oppressed must strike the first blow?so it is with women. And once they make up their minds, it will only be a matter of time. After all, male privelege is based on the man's ability to keep women in "their place". Knowing he was a man of peace not advocating a physical blow, I accept this idea.
So I struggle with this idea that men must lead the way for women's freedom. Historically, race and gender has found freedom in this country by championing their own way.
I also experiencd this past Sunday the role a man who is championing this cause can play. The man who "presides" over our table chooses those whom he wants to help with serving. He chose two women. Didn't ask for permission, just did it. We've talked and talked and talked to death freedom in women's "roles", but little action has been taken. He took it. I don't know that we will ever get to the place where it is seen as equality in serving. It is still seen as a permission w/authority thing. (sigh) But I accept the baby steps, because right now, they beat the alternative. (My own voice is not completely silenced, but carefully measured, as I don't want to get my husband fired again!)
More struggles, still. Maybe the answer lies in us working together for this freedom. You know, kind of shoulder-shoulder and eyeball-to-eyeball, like in the Garden.
Thinking out loud and rambling a lot. Hope you can make some sense of it.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 4/20/2004 06:12:36 PM
I'm enjoying the discussion.
I think Julie (and others) are in a difficult situation trying to advocate for change in places where they personally will be the beneficiaries of that change. I’ve seen Katie struggle in such a context and it can be a minefield. It’s simply too easy for the champions of the status quo to sidestep good arguments for change by ascribing ulterior motives to the one arguing for change. So much trust is required to prevent the whole debate from descending into personal attacks. It’s hard for churches to talk constructively about difficult issues. It can be well nigh impossible when some of the participants in the discussion are the issue.
This brings up two thoughts:
1. Men need to champion this cause. The reasons are many and obvious. Men? Are you out there?
2. Churches should be encouraged to address this issue “in the abstract.” In my opinion, the context in which a woman can most effectively exercise “up front” leadership is a church that settled the question of female leadership apart from any consideration of her particular desires and gifts. This is the kind of unselfconscious freedom in ministry that all men enjoy. It is the kind of unselfconscious freedom in ministry that all women deserve.
Having said that…in the absence of ideal circumstances we must do what we can with the circumstances we have. So Julie et. al.: soldier on!
:::posted by Lance on 4/19/2004 10:09:03 PM
Has anyone here seen Mona Lisa Smile? If there was a conversation, I missed it.
:::posted by Vicki on 4/19/2004 06:14:09 PM
Julie,
It's so hard to know. My dad is a private kind of person and I've never known exactly how he's worked through this problem in the times that it's come up, so I wish that I had something constructive to add to my previous comment. Maybe I will call home tonight and ask and see if I can get him to share something concrete. But I definitely don't want you to feel like the last comment was a gag order or something!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 4/19/2004 06:12:40 PM
Jen, I keep thinking about your words about your dad. I think you are right that sometimes you have to step away and let others own the ideas. My voice may not be the one that they can hear right now.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 4/18/2004 11:09:31 PM
Pioneer or pilgrim. I've chosen to be a pioneer - until God lets me know it's time to be a pilgrim. Every time I read these posts I find myself humming, "I am a poor wayfaring stranger", only I change the words in my head to "I am a weary pioneer."
God give us all hope and strength. Baby steps are crippling to one who wants to walk and run.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 4/17/2004 10:39:09 PM
Yes, Tracy's quote spoke to me. I am definitely the rebel in my family and I know that if I left that family it would feel strange and I know that I would find things that aren't right wherever that place may be also. I love the Church of Christ and what it has offered to me. I also love the church of Christ and all that it has offered me. Jen, I do believe that it is like being Jewish...I will always have that part of me...no matter where the Spirit leads from here. love, Julie
:::posted by julie on 4/17/2004 09:11:09 PM
I don't know Julie well enough to know if you pegged her with that quote, Tracy, but you sure pegged me.
Last week, my boss Linda (I work part-time selling orthopedic shoes now--better than waiting tables at least) tried to get to the bottom of what she sees as an irrational loyalty. Linda is Jewish, and she has a lot of curiosity about this funny little corner of Christianity that I come from. So last week she tried to figure it out. As I explained why I didn't just "jump" to something else, it came down to, essentially, that this is where my family is. Linda interpreted that in terms of "people I'm related to will get mad if I go." But that's not it at all. Part of why I am who I am now is that I grew up in the Church of Christ. Valuing that fact means honoring my past, and honoring my past, to me, implies that I ought not abandon it--at least, not lightly or as if the move wasn't a significant one. Finally Linda realized that what I was really saying is that I was CofC like she is Jewish...you may not always want to embrace that identity, but the fact of it doesn't change regardless. That analogy doesn't hold all the way, of course (what analogy ever does), but having that conversation with Linda really cleared some things up for me. (I don't know what it did for her, except maybe confirm her suspicion that we're all a little bit crazy.)
I'm not sure that this kind of attitude is right for everyone, though. It can easily turn into an absolute sort of "I'll never go no matter what" and honestly, I don't think that's good either. Right now, I'm in a good place, and that makes everything easier. I've watched my Dad go through the same struggle as Julie in every church he's served--how do you figure out when you've served yourself out? If people need to hear a new voice (maybe just a new voice saying the same things you were all along, but they just can't hear you anymore)? I don't think it's ever been easy for him. I think it probably never will, when the issue is how much you care for the people you minister to.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 4/17/2004 08:23:31 AM
Tracy,
I'm quite sure you will be able to find us in the early service. Just come down the aisle to the left of the center section on the left about four rows back from the front. There are usually two quite bald old guys (we are both in our 50's) sitting in the third and forth rows back--one on the right of the aisle (my favorite elder and a good friend!) and me on the left side of the aisle. During the summer, Linda and I are in our quarter out of the 2nd grade (a vacation :>) ) so we usually just head for the main auditorium. We will definitely be looking forward to that day.
Maybe this post won't end up with a wierd double post. The last one I stopped to view something and it went abberant on me when I went back and posted what was the actual post. It then posted part of the original that I had edited!
:::posted by Wiley on 4/16/2004 08:13:30 PM
Wiley,
I'm glad the mystery has been solved for you. Mom said you were quite perplexed when she introduced herself. We are hoping to come sometime this summer and I'll be sure and introduce myself to you and your wife. It would be nice to meet you. I'll let you know when we're headed your way.
Julie,
I can't begin to understand the feelings you feel about being held over a fire. There is currently not even a spark where I am right now.
I have thought about what Sue said to me in her post, " It is my prayer that both your children be able to use their voices and talents to serve and worship our wonderful God in the Church of Christ. " I wonder if that will ever happen. I wonder if we will ever find a "Church of Christ" that allows women to use their gifts. As often as we move, it's hard to want to fight the fight where I am when we will never be anywhere long enough to see discussion, study or even change for that matter. I too am asking myself if I should go or stay and how I will know the right choice. All I can do is pray and study and ask God to lead us where our entire family can best serve Him. I wish I had some wisdom to share with you.
However, I am currently reading, "Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry" By Stanley J. Grenz and Denise Muri Kjesbo. I'd like to share some excerpts from the epilogue. When I read your post I immediately thought of you as "Sally" depicted here:
"Sally keenly follows the ongoing discussions regarding women in ministry within her denomination. On one occasion she raise the subject with a trusted mentor. His advice was poignant: "Sally you can either be a pioneer in familiar territory or become a pilgrim in a foreign land. Both options have advantages and disadvantages. Your task is to discern which the Lord is calling you to at this time.
Today Sally believes that God is calling her to stay and serve within the familiar terrain of her denomination of origin. However, she also realizes that the time may come when she can longer bear the pressures of being a pioneer. Should that occur, she may need to leave "home" - forsake the church fellowship in which she was raised and continue to serve God and answer her call in a "foreign land" - with a denomination more accepting of women in ministry.
Sally is not angry, despite what she sees as the injustice of her situation. At times she does feel the acute pain of the restrictions placed on her because she is a woman. But overall, she is simply tired of the whole discussion. Sally has settled the biblical and theological issues for herself and now wishes to move on. She wearies of being embroiled in the heat of controversy. Sally longs for the day when she can merely serve God and minister to people, allowing her gender to be a gift that is treasured in church ministry rather than a liability to be overcome."
I love you Julie,
Tracy
:::posted by Tracy on 4/16/2004 04:27:19 PM
Tracy,
WOW! I'm soooooo glad you have come in and introduced yourself!!!!!!!!! When your mother came in to our 2nd grade classroom that morning, it totally caught me off guard because I could not think of anyone I could put two and two together and figure out who she was talking about. I'll bet she told you I was kind of at a loss of words for a minute or two! (BTW, my wife is the teacher and the 2nd grade co-ordinator--I'm just the helper :>) ) Your mother told me you would be visiting in a few months and I really look forward to meeting you and your family. We found out in a very short time we were indeed standing on common ground. The gender justice movement is growing slowly at Granbury (still very much an "underground" movement) but it is growing and someday our eldership WILL have to deal with it. Right now they just kind of totally ignore the subject altogether. We are making progress in other areas though and that is very encouraging. The pulpit minister they finally hire will, I'm afraid, be the key to where we head in the future! I do know already that the man I had hoped we would be able to hire (and who I had personally handed in his resume with my personal letter of recommendation) has been hired by Bering Drive CoC in Houston. Their tremendous gain--our tremendous loss! We just got started a little too late to get him :>(
:::posted by Wiley on 4/15/2004 09:49:21 PM
Tracy,
WOW! I'm soooooo glad you have come in and introduced yourself!!!!!!!!! When your mother came in to our 2nd grade classroom that morning, it totally caught me off guard because I could not figure out who she was talking about. I'll bet she told you I was kind of at a loss of words for a minute or two! (BTW, my wife is the teacher and the 2nd grade co-ordinator--I'm just the helper :>) ) Your mother told me you would be visiting in a few months and I really look forward to meeting you and your family. We found out in a very short discussion we were indeed standing on common ground. The gender justice movement is growing slowly at Granbury (still very much an "underground" movement though) but it is growing and someday our eldership WILL have to deal with it (maybe by that time I will have the opportunity to again be an elder and possibility help the process a little). Right now they just kind of totally ignore the subject altogether (however-we do have at least one elder--out of 13--who is privately very supportive of the cause) . We are making progress in other areas though and that is very encouraging (even these are "no pain-no gain" situations-unfortunately). The pulpit minister they finally hire will, I'm afraid, be the key to where we head in the future! I do know that the man I had hoped we would be able to hire (and who I had personally handed in his resume with my personal letter of recommendation) has recently been hired by Bering Drive CoC in Houston. Their tremendous gain--our tremendous loss! We just got started a little too late to get him :>( Please keep in touch and keep posting with us. If you ever want to contact me directly, it's wclarkson@clarksons.org (or webmaster@granburycoc.org)
:::posted by Wiley on 4/15/2004 09:49:06 PM
hi friends, so good to hear from Tracy. She is very special to me and I am so proud of her journey. She is right that the Bowie church has nurtured many on their spiritual journey and yes, we are in a different place now...but I have some questions to pose to my friends here...I need some wisdom. I still feel so held over the fire here in Bowie and just never seem to find a moment to just relax in the freedom. Someone is constantly pointing out something that I have said or done that they are offended by...sometimes they are things that I have said or done and sometimes they are not but I am so weary. When do you come to the point where it might just be better to move on? I sometimes wonder if I was out of the picture...and they didn't then have anyone to blame...would they work things out or would they just remain in the same place they are now? I have begun to look at my options...where else we could live and be happy and possibly be more comfortable financially. Those of you who live in major urban areas know what I am talking about. We are seriously considering a major move and didn't think we would ever be considering leaving....we have been here for 17 years....but when we came we thought it would be short term. Any thoughts?
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 4/15/2004 08:42:52 PM
Katie,
Thanks for the heads up on the posting. If my husband was in town I'd ask him if he minded but since he's not here to ask, I decided to play it safe and respect his privacy and wishes and remove that part of my blog. If he doesn't mind, perhaps I'll "edit again" once he gets back and share it again.
Sue
I know...using my name and silence in the same sentence is an oxymoron. I have fond memories of Bowie, my faith was rooted and developed there. I am more... I guess the words that come to mind are ashamed and embarrassed that I never questioned it until now.
Why for all my life I never thought about it. That's just the way it is and the Bible must say that or it wouldn't be that way.
I am still struggling and still wonder if I've "lost my mind." sometimes. I'm trying to take off my "CofC lenses" and I'm trying to read the Bible for myself, instead of relying on what I've been told it says. It's scary and exciting all at the same time. I'm enjoying the journey though!
:::posted by Tracy on 4/15/2004 10:03:11 AM
Tracy,
How wonderful to hear your voice!
I am thrilled with the good news you share about Scott. You know we are rejoicing with you.
I am sad when I realize how we tried to silence your voice for so long. I just hurt when I realize how much we in the CofC have lost by silencing half our members. Although, truth be told, as one of your Sunday School teachers, I remember that you were not one to be silenced easily. You always brought joy and laughter with you.
It is my prayer that both your children be able to use thier voices and talents to serve and worship our wonderful God in the Church of Christ. One of my greatest joys as a mother is to hear the voices of both my sons and daughters, my grandsons and my granddaughters sharing in the worship of God who made and loves us all.
Much love to you and your family.
Grace, Sue
:::posted by Sue on 4/15/2004 09:43:00 AM
Tracy, I am so glad to hear your voice on this forum. The stories you have shared with us are powerful and well-told.
I'm a little worried about your privacy, though... the reading/writing community here may be bigger than it seems, as some people "lurk" as you did for a while and may not be as friendly as those who post regularly. [message to Tracy regarding privacy edited out here, 4/14/04, 11:17 a.m.]
That said, let me reiterate: welcome! We are always glad to have a new voice and greet a sibling in Christ.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/15/2004 07:08:53 AM
Hi, I've been lurking for a little over a year and think it's time I introduced myself. My name is Tracy McLaren. I was actually born and raised in Bowie, MD and know Julie, Ann, and Sue very well. (Love them!) I have been gone from Bowie for about 10 years now. I initially started my study because I'd "gotten wind" of what was going on in Bowie. To be honest, I thought I would study this "women's thing" for myself because I thought, "Bowie had lost their minds!" And, since I knew a lot of the people still attending there, it was a little surprised. So I decided I'd study this thing for myself so that I would know how "wrong" they were. WOW! So, now I think, "Why couldn't this study have happened when I was still attending there?" I missed it!
I want to share 2 things that have happened that have made this something I am having a hard time ignoring or pushing aside. About a year ago when we went to war in Iraq, at the end of a Wed. night service one of our elders announced that we would have a prayer service after the closing prayer. He invited any one who wanted to pray to stay and do so. I immediately thought, "GREAT! Boy do I have a lot of things on my heart." You see, my husband is an F-16 pilot in the Air Force. From a spouse's perspective I was thinking of the spouse's and children who had kissed their husbands/dad's goodbye not knowing how long they'd be gone or if they'd ever see them again. So, at the conclusion of the service our elder got up and invited "any MEN who would like to come up and pray to do so." That was the first moment where I was.... mad and frustrated. So, I had to tap a man on the shoulder and ask HIM if he'd please pray for the families left behind and also the Iraqi people who be affected as well. Then, the more I thought the more frustrated I became. If there is ONE way to the Father (through His son), then WHY am having to ask some man in front of me, to intercede for me on my behalf? Why couldn't I just pray to God myself? And even more frustrating was sitting there listening to all those men pray and NONE of them mentioning any of the specific thoughts I had on my heart because none of them were looking at it from my unique, individual perspective. (a military spouse)
The second thing that has solidified in my mind that I can't ignore the women's "issue" (so funny that it's called that) has to do with my husband. He was not raised in the cofc and he has always thought that our stance on women was "wrong." I recall driving in the car with him a few months ago and him basically saying, "I don't want our daughter taught that when her brother is present, God doesn't want to hear her pray." I was like a sucker punch to my gut. I had never really thought of it. But, he was right, that's the way I grew up thinking and being taught.
I'm sorry this was so long. I just was tired of "lurking" and wanted to say I enjoy the posts and have gained a lot from the conversations.
Oh, and one more thing, Wiley, my parents live in Granbury and attend where you do. I believe my mom came up and introduced her self to you a while back. Boy, it's a small world.
:::posted by Tracy on 4/15/2004 12:19:25 AM
My 12 year old daughter will serve communion around the "Big Table" this Sunday. I can't begin to find words that describe how I'm feeling. My goal is not to embarass and humiliate her with my sobbing!
(Katie - my dad, too!)
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 4/14/2004 12:44:32 AM
A couple more Easter anecdotes that seem to tie in with that previous thread about evangelism...
At our early service, which is usually at sunrise and usually at the beach but this year was at 8 a.m. and in our building due to weather problems, we had two guests, both women. When they came in, I greeted them in the hallway. One asked whether we use instrumental music. "I want to be sure I'm in the right Church of Christ," she said. I replied that no, indeed, we do not have a piano. She was reassured and they made their way to the sanctuary. "Oh, boy," I thought, feeling that familiar sense of dread. How long would it take them to figure out they were NOT in the "right Church of Christ"?
It took five seconds. Our songleader, a woman who has done a brilliant job for 22 years, stood up to begin the service with an Easter greeting and a resurrection hymn. The two women put their heads together in a panic and began to whisper. When the song ended, they excused themselves and hurried out the back. I hurried after them. "I'm sorry you feel you have to leave," I said. "This is not what we wanted," one said -- the woman who had not spoken earlier. "We cannot worship where a woman is in charge." "That's too bad," I replied. "She is so gifted, and we are so blessed to have her here." We exchanged a couple more comments, very politely, and they left.
Meanwhile, in the sanctuary, there was silence during the women's exit. When they were gone, Lance said aloud for all to hear, "He's still risen!" Our songleader said, "He sure is!" and went on with the next hymn.
As it turns out, the woman who quizzed me about instrumental music before the service was a visitor from Virginia. Her friend, who argued with me during their exit, is a local. So she doesn't go to church anywhere, but when her friend comes to visit, she has to find the "right" church and is embarrassed to have landed them in the "wrong" place.
The second story is much better. A young woman has visited our congregation a couple times recently and showed up at our later Easter service with an older woman. Her mother, it turns out, was visiting from Pennsylvania for the holiday weekend. So I go to meet Mom after the service (during which I have preached), wondering whether this is going to be as problematic as the earlier visitor situation. (I'm such a pessimist. God help me.)
Mom extends her hand and gives me a warm smile. "I'm so glad C----- has landed here," she says. "The freedom in Christ you all are practicing here may be exactly what she needs for this next step in her adult faith. Our church back home is not so...ahem...free. And this is okay for me but it will not be okay for my daughter and her generation, you know. So I'm glad she's here. You all take good care of her, okay?"
I laughed and said that's the same thing my dad has always said to every church I've ever been a part of -- "Y'all take good care of her, okay?" Do all Christian parents do this? They probably should.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/13/2004 06:33:03 PM
HAPPY EASTER!
What a glorious day it is today as we celebrate the Risen Lord. For the first time in her life, Laura, my wife, gave the communion meditation. She worried and stressed and labored over the meditation for days. She put time and prayer into her thoughts and wrote and rewrote her words several times. Then this morning she got up to speak and when Sophia, our 1 year old, realized that her mother was up there speaking, Sophia's face lit up like the bright sun. Sophia was so excited to see Laura up there. Her natural reaction was to start clapping and so she did. It drew the attention of several people around us as they admired Sophia's admiration for her mom.
Laura asked me after our service how she did. I couldn't really comment on her delivery, etc because I was so struck by Sophia's reaction so I said, "our daughter witnessed you talking about Christ to a lot of people and she was excited about it. You did awesome!"
:::posted by jch on 4/11/2004 12:59:57 PM
Katie -
It is as you say.
His will for us will prevail,
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 4/10/2004 06:53:32 PM
I'd like to share the closing prayer from our Good Friday service at West Islip:God, the Father of Jesus Christ,
This is the night, above all nights, when we focus our minds and hearts on the sufferings of your son. We remember tonight that, although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
His story reminds us again how strange your ways are to us, steeped as we are in other values. We confess that we are a people of dual citizenship. Our loyalties are divided between your upside-down kingdom and the kingdom of this age. We struggle tonight to honestly recognize the difference between the two.
We confess that a story of suffering is not easily absorbed by people like us. We would like to dismiss it quickly—a bit of unpleasantness before a celebration. We would like to distance ourselves from it—keep crosses on walls and atop buildings and far away from our own shoulders. We would like to tame it—confine its claim, tuck it away in some religious compartment of our lives.
But we pause.
Indeed, there is no other explanation for our presence here tonight: we have come here to pause. Somewhere in each of us, a voice is whispering, urging us to pause a moment and learn.
We who have been baptized into Christ, teach us obedience through what he suffered.
We who pursue happiness, teach us to pursue righteousness.
We who love to win, teach us to love mercy.
We who strive to be successful, teach us to be faithful.
We who fancy ourselves self-made, teach us to be grateful.
We who know our rights, teach us to be accountable.
We who want an easier road of obedience, teach us your ways, oh Lord.
And if we are hard of heart and do not learn obedience through suffering, then by his stripes forgive us tonight, and for the sake of your steadfast love alone cause tomorrow’s sun to rise, so that by your grace we may have another day to repent, to learn, to turn toward the light of your coming kingdom.
We who have been baptized into Christ’s death: into your hands, Father, we commend our spirits, and wait for the light of Easter morning and the life that only you can give.
In the name of the Crucified One, we pray. Amen.
:::posted by Lance on 4/09/2004 09:41:28 PM
Sue, Chad, Vicki, friends --
I'll confess from the outset here that I don't have any actual experience to draw on in this discussion about how to show the world what great things God has done inside our churches. I read the stuff about Purpose-Driven Churches and Alpha programs and all the ways that Christians have found to communicate to outsiders that God is alive, God is here, God is for you, etc. Apparently some have had Day-of-Pentecost responses (i.e. big numbers, explosive church growth) using one methodology or another. I am frankly bewildered by this. I'm not being sarcastic. I really mean it -- I just don't get it.
My experience is more like this, in several churches I have been part of as member and/or minister. A small congregation has a core of deeply committed souls who have walked the discipleship road together for a long, long time. They have had their minds and hearts completely changed one, two, or a half-dozen times about fundamental questions about the nature of God and subsequently their own place in the universe. They have learned that it's more important to know Jesus than it is to know Paul. They have lost family members and friends to the ferocious arguments about issues like gender justice, which are all related to those fundamental questions about God, the universe, and everything. They have cried together and held each other and believed, believed, believed that God would vindicate their hard choices.
Over the years, that hard-core group has had other folks join them, folks who are intrigued by the passion of this family of believers. The joiners won't ever feel that passion, exactly, but they will be positively amazed and even sustained by the passion of those in the center. The little church doesn't grow, but it stays steady as folks die or move away or lose interest. New folks come in at about the same rate others leave.
Once in a great while, there will be a conversion of someone who wanders into the passionate center and cannot believe what kindness, what mercy, what energy s/he finds there. S/he hears each believer say, again and again, "For the glory of God!" and s/he starts to believe it.
Gender justice is critical here in these evangelistic moments. The unforgettable testimonies of women redeemed from slavery to youth/beauty/sex/charm; the pure belief in the power of God to change things back to the way they were meant to be; the recognition that it takes ALL of us, using ALL our talents, to do the hard work of sharing this good news -- none of these are happening in churches where the women are kept quiet.
Can people be converted to follow Jesus Christ in churches where justice is not? I guess so. The same way my mom could be baptized in a racially segregated church, I suppose. Indeed, it might be easier to do traditional, bring-'em-in evangelism in churches that aren't so battle-scarred as the ones where the gender issue has been raised.
Like you, Sue, I keep on thinking that women's participation in church would be a draw to some in our community. We're in a predominantly Roman-Catholic part of the world, here on Long Island, and I keep thinking that the smart, educated women I meet would be thrilled to know that there's a church where women are not only included but celebrated as full partners in the gospel. But it hasn't happened. I'm not sure that many of these women see the institutional church as being important enough to really care whether women are included or not. So it hasn't been much of a help to us.
I keep telling my church that we have to stay on the lookout for what God is doing out there, and do our best to join in. I say "keep telling" because I don't have a formula for doing it -- do you sense my frustration with my own ignorance here? Developing eyes to see God's work in the world is tricky and takes time. There were folks who spent three years in Jesus' company and didn't quite figure it out!
The resources Chad lists are good, especially any publication by The Gospel and Our Culture Network. Again, Hunsberger and his colleagues call us to stop thinking about how to get people "in here" and devote ourselves to what's happening "out there." It's a turn-about in our evangelistic thinking that makes us (me?) feel vulnerable, but it's the truest thing I've heard on this subject.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/09/2004 03:25:03 PM
From today's headlines:
Faithful Decry Foot-Washing Ban of Women
Thu Apr 8,11:14 PM ET
By ELIOTT C. McLAUGHLIN, Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA - About 100 men and women gathered outside Atlanta's Roman Catholic cathedral Thursday to protest the archbishop's exclusion of women from the Holy Thursday foot-washing ritual.
Contrary to the order from Archbishop John Donoghue, the protesters said the rite should include everyone. Donoghue did not address the protest during Mass Thursday night. He and his staff have refused to comment on the issue.
Protesters sang and prayed during the hourlong demonstration, which spilled from the sidewalk into the street. Some brought picket signs, but most brought only towels and washbowls.
In a letter last month to Atlanta priests, Donoghue said they should select 12 men from each parish to represent the apostles who had their feet washed by Jesus at the Last Supper.
Many see foot-washing as a symbolic act of service and charity. Lalor Cadley, who organized the demonstration, said the archbishop "in some ways, has lost sight of the gospel message."
"It's about serving one another in love," Cadley said.
As Sister Patty Caraher, an Atlanta nun, washed Nancy Frate's feet outside the Cathedral of Christ the King, Frate explained why she joined the protest: "I'm 66 in August. I don't have a lot of years left, so it's time I stood up for the things I believe."
:::posted by Vicki on 4/09/2004 02:42:13 PM
Sue, thanks for your post. I'd say you've traded that old bulky "suit of armor" for "the flak jacket of faith", if you take my meaning. :) It also sounds like you're already doing a pretty good job of showing Jesus to a woman who needed him.
If you're looking for strategies for your church to be more faithful in your outreach to those with little/no background in Christianity (or those with a bad taste in their mouths), you might check out Brian McLaren's website (www.anewkindofchristian.com). Brazos Press publishes a lot of thoughtful writing on contemporary church and culture (www.brazospress.com), and there's also some good publications from the Gospel and Our Culture Network (www.gocn.org). Those probably proceed in an ascending order in terms of accessibility. Other folks may have some different suggestions.
Happy Good Friday everyone...keep your eyes open for that rolling stone come Sunday...
Peace,
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 4/09/2004 12:34:27 PM
This quote was in my inbox this morning. Thought it worth sharing here with you:
Easter says to us that despite everything to the contrary, his
will for us will prevail, love will prevail over hate, justice
over injustice and oppression, peace over exploitation and
bitterness. -- Desmond Tutu
:::posted by Vicki on 4/08/2004 12:21:52 PM
Chad and Katie,
Thanks for your responses. They were encouraging.
I have taken off the flak jacket. I had worn it too long. It is heavy and irritating. I think I would rather live with the pain of the potshots than the pain of carrying around the burden of heavy armour. Max Lucado's book," Traveing Light", convinced me to leave it behind. I'm holding on to the knowledge that God is really in charge. I like to think He is joyfully and playfully rearranging things.
The real question is how to better share Jesus with our world and quit fussing with one another about traditions. Recently a young women has become part of our church family. She comes out of a background that contains lots of hurt and sin. God was only a curse word. She heard the word and believed. Watching her grow in Christ is like watching a flower bloom. It's beautiful and exciting. The church should be looking for more ways to reach people like her who truely are lost. Is there any way other than just looking for the individual opportunities that God gives us share the wonder of freedom in Christ. She doesn't care who gets to do what in church services. She just wants to help this church and tell the world what she has found. I am so thankful that here in Bowie we have come to the point where this girl can actually share her story.
I love my church family. We have taveled through a lot together. Now we are looking for ways to share who we are in a loving way that reaches beyond the church doors. Any suggestions?
Grace,
Sue
:::posted by Sue on 4/08/2004 11:01:24 AM
Katie, it looks like we've got a fan club. Should we take this show on the road??? ;-)
:::posted by Chad on 4/08/2004 09:16:46 AM
Thanks, Lance. I let my subscription expire.
Katie & Chad - I'm enjoying your conversation. Please continue!
:::posted by Vicki on 4/07/2004 05:14:56 PM
I came across a nice sound-bite today:You tell me why you no longer believe what [Churches of Christ] previously thought the Bible taught about slavery, and I will tell you why I no longer believe what you think the Bible teaches about women.
—William Hull in the Spring, ’04 Priscilla Papers
:::posted by Lance on 4/07/2004 03:30:34 PM
Katie -
OK, so I'm going to see Othello this weekend and I've got the Bard on the brain. And dang it, we've got to get through Good Friday before Easter comes! I'm just not quite to the empty tomb yet this week. (I guess I'm in for a long week.) :-)
I heard Sue asking something a little different than you did based on her last question, and then her second post: "How do we get past the feeling of being victimizd by others congregations in the area and become victorius celebrators of our freedom in Christ? I'm tired of having people take potshots at us." That victimized feeling coupled with what she indicated to be a lack of unified leadership and some internal dissension in their community are the things I was responding to.
AND...that Good News of the "justice bonfire" was preceded by one word we'd rather avoid: "Repent." Given our American context, is it possible that our hand-wringing - which seems to be a recurring theme on this forum every few months - is symptomatic of the fact that we don't like to lose? (I'm asking this as much of myself as anyone else.) All the efforts for justice across human history are only piecemeal, and we may be working for a day we may not get to see.
I'm reading Lee Camp's new book Mere Discipleship as a pre-Easter meditation, and the following passage really struck me today. This comes in the context of relating the story of Clarence Jordan and the Koinonia Farm in Georgia, which explicitly challenged the racial divide in the early 1950s: "I find myself consistently disturbed and unsettled, yet spurred on to greater courage, by those who have refused to waver in the integrity of their faith, even in the face of imprisonment or the threat of death. One of the ways in which the principalities and powers of southern culture (and southern church culture) continue to bear power over me is in what psychologists call 'codependency' - my fear of making others angry, or provoking dissent, or, God forbid, of coming under threat of reprimand or sanction. Southerners like me are well schooled in 'being nice,' in 'being polite,' and while such social virtues certainly have their proper place, they can become an idol that keeps us from realizing the role that the church should have in stirring up trouble simply by being the church."
Blessings,
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 4/06/2004 03:18:28 PM
Well, okay, Chad, you got Shakespeare on your side. And no, there's no way to control what people think about a congregation, and we should expect persecution when we do the right thing. Points taken.
But... What about that whole "light under a bushel basket" thing? Somebody said that if this good news we've got is really Good, then we need to shout it from the rooftops. Nobody lights a lamp and hides it...
So, Sue, if you Bowie folks have lit a justice bonfire, then (a) you will occasionally get burned AND (b) the very nature of the flame as a sign/al, a burning tongue of Holy Spirit, requires that you make it visible to those who are looking to warm themselves around exactly this flicker of Good News.
I hear you asking, first, how do we carry the torch of God's justice into the dark corners of our sexist culture? You said, "My question is how do we capitalize on our unique position? How do we advertise that we may not be what they expect from the sign on the building? How do we convey who we are to the community around us? We had a visitor this week who said he would have been here sooner if he had known we were not like some other congregations he had attended."
It's a good set of questions that recognizes that our weekly behind-closed-doors worship celebrations are not all by themselves sufficient to bring the inbreaking kingdom of God to our neighbors who sit in darkness (loneliness, purposelessness, joylessness...). How will we fan our in-house justice bonfire into a sufficient flame to burn down the bushel basket that settles down over most of our churches when it comes to justice? (Justice = the good news that God is in charge, really, despite all appearances to the contrary, and God is joyfully, playfully reordering the things that humans spend their lives frantically ordering to their liking and advantage. Jesus never preached anything else.)
Does gender justice spill out of our congregations, for example, in concern for the single moms raising kids on subsistence wages in our neighborhoods? Has the big fight about women and men we've fought in our churches matter AT ALL to them? Is it Good News to them? How do we let the Spirit fan that flame so that it will be?
It's not about a marketing campaign (although a little subcommittee in my congregation is currently working on our local lack-of-name-recognition problem). It's about becoming the People of God, the Body of Christ, so that together we do the things Jesus did when he walked among us. You know, good news for the poor, freedom for the oppressed, renewed vision for the blind, life out of death... that's what changes in gender inclusion have to be about in our churches, or they don't mean anything.
Responses? Anybody?
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/06/2004 02:30:03 PM
Sue,
I doubt there's much you can do to prevent people from taking potshots at you or your congregation. So put on your flak jacket. There's no way around it: if you really begin to live like Jesus, you're going to turn out the hostility of the "traditionally religious" (or even not-so-traditional) among you. (Thanks to Larry James for teaching me that one.) If Christ suffered, so will we. Although we live in a time when, yes the kingdom has come, it's not here fully. "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Don't we wish it weren't so...
There's also no need to try and control your church's reputation or that of Churches of Christ. (Can you imagine trying to do PR for the Roman Catholic church these days?!) I'm reminded of Shakespeare: "Reputation is an idle and most false imposition: oft got without merit, and lost without deserving." It takes too much energy trying to manage everyone's misunderstandings. At Brookline, we've been mistaken for the Boston Movement, the United Church of Christ, the Mormons, generic bible fellowships, and even Reverend Moon's Unity movement, just to name a few. There isn't a name that goes without baggage. Like your visitor who came anyway, believe that God will draw people to you.
It's great to have a sign that can convey who you are, but you won't be able to standardize everyone's interpretation of that sign. Better to have a life that conveys who you are, and whose you are - then no one will care about the name on the sign.
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 4/06/2004 01:19:28 PM
Katie,
Thanks for your reply. I worship in Bowie, MD. You know my friend Julie Danley well. My daughter, Ann, has an article on the Website.
One of the problems is that recently after a very different worship service several members popped up and again raised the "Lets go back to the good old days when there were no problems and women didn't participate" flag. Some of the most painful shots come from within. As a result of that some discussions are being held on the fact that we indeed are not a traditional CofC and we need to assert our identity in a more positive manner to ourselves, our community and to our sister congregations.
At the present time we do not have elders or a strong united leadership. That of course makes it a bit more difficult. We are a congregation of about 120. There are many good wonderful people here. God is good and I'm sure He will help us use the current turmoil for His purposes. Maybe some brainstorming from all of you would help to see where He is leading us. As Tom has said recently, "May God guide, guard, and direct us."
Grace,
Sue
:::posted by Sue on 4/06/2004 10:49:50 AM
Sue, quick question: where is your congregation, geographically? Do you feel comfortable publicizing its name and location here, on this forum?
I ask because it makes a difference if you're in a place where C of Cs are rare and don't have much of a reputation -- like West Islip, New York, or Stamford, Connecticut -- or a place where there's a C of C on every corner -- like Birmingham, Alabama.
I always thought the Cahaba Valley congregation in Birmingham should put a tagline under the church name on the roadside sign: "Cahaba Valley Church of Christ -- We're not what you think." That way, if someone was looking for a traditional C of C to stop in for communion while on vacation, they would have fair warning. But if someone was looking for something outside the box, with women's equal participation as a tangible sign of deeper thoughts about God's nature, they might give CVCC a shot.
They never did adopt that sign idea...
So, Sue, give us a little more info and we'll brainstorm with you.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/06/2004 09:42:52 AM
Hi everyone,
I have a question. The congregation where I worship has had women participating in all areas of worship for about a year now. We have had some members come because gender justice is important to them. We have had others leave because we do not follow the traditions of the Church of Christ that make them comfortable. We are not a "traditional" Church of Christ. My question is how do we capitalize on our unique position? How do we advertise that we may not be what they expect from the sign on the building? How do we convey who we are to the community around us? We had a visitor this week who said he would have been here sooner if he had known we were not like some other congregations he had attended. He thought our worship service was wonderfully uplifting. I don't think he even noticed that women were leading parts of the service. How do we get past the feeling of being victimizd by others congregations in the area and become victorius celebrators of our freedom in Christ? I'm tired of having people take potshots at us.
Grace,
Sue
:::posted by Sue on 4/05/2004 11:56:54 PM
Indie,
I'm glad to give you a smile, sister! I have lived in the South, Southern California, and Mid-Atlantic Coast, and have visited many other places, and always hear at least one of those phrases. A friend of mine and I put together a whole list of those phrases several years ago, but, unfortunately, I've lost it.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 4/04/2004 02:40:00 PM
Oh my, Tom, you had me laughing on that one. I've lived on the West Coast, the South, and New England and I've heard all of those phrases quoted the exact same way in every place. It is amazing how uniform the CofC is even without a central government, written creedbook, etc.
:::posted by Indie on 4/03/2004 07:13:57 PM
I learned long ago not to tell my wife she throws like a girl, as she played softball in high school and has an arm stronger than a lot of guys!
But seriously, in my experience, many women pray publicly much more meaningfully than most men.
Perhaps because they haven't had years of socialization into the "Church of Christ Book of Common Prayers," which has auto-pilot phrases like "give our speaker a ready recollection," "bring our sick back to a measure of their health," "guide, guard, and direct us," and "bring us back at the next appointed time."
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 4/02/2004 08:10:43 AM
Katie, you pray like a girl! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 4/01/2004 04:50:52 PM
So, did you hear about the girl who won the McDonald's High School Slam Dunk Contest? Read more at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/01/sports/basketball/01ROBE.html?ex=1081829789&ei=1&en=2d0603ef56a86c7d
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 4/01/2004 10:14:48 AM
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