The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Irie, thank you so much for writing. Let me say it again: thank you! I count it as an honor that you trust us enough to speak about this difficult and painful subject. Thank you.
A short while ago I was troubled by this same notion, that all prejudice derives from sexism, as if sexism trumps other injustices, as if all injustices in the world are somehow about me and the pulpits where I'm not allowed to preach. That argument just cannot stand, not in history and not in the churches. I tried to answer it briefly when it came up on this forum. I don't think I was very clear about my worry, however, and the subject faded away (in a hail of quotes from the Princess Bride, perhaps? -- smile).
I sometimes make the comparison you speak of, sexism to racism, simply because it is an analogy most people can understand. (See Floyd Rose's essay elsewhere on this website, a helpful piece that shows the ridiculousness of any kind of prejudice, especially in the church.)
But I try in humility to heed Alice Walker's (and others') assertion that white women do not understand the true depth of discrimination faced by black women. Perhaps that's why many of us (white women) are able to stay in churches where our gifts are not wanted. Walker calls black feminists "womanists" and says, "Feminism is to womanism as lavender is to purple"!
I'm working on a Sunday school lesson on metanoia -- repentance -- tonight. So your post hit home. Let us call one another to repentance -- a change of heart! a change of mind! a brand-new life! Thank you, Irie, my purple sister, for helping us change our hearts and minds.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/28/2004 09:34:20 PM
Carmen,
While I wholeheartedly agree that sexism and racism have some similarities, please understand that racism is also quite distinct. Racism is a by product of slavery. Consequently, slavery's legacy of injustice and oppression is interwoven in the fabric of modern society. It involves more than simply a repression of ones skills, abilities and gifts for service. A mistake that many whites make especially, as it relates to the gender issue, is to compare sexism to racism in an effort to suggest a commonality in our experiences. For blacks, this notion minimizes our experiences. You see, the consequences of slavery still exist today because, "whites, in order to maintain the slave system and to justify their inhuman treatment of blacks, developed a vicious mythology to support their actions.
This mythology is still in existence in 21st century America. White people based their systems of supremacy, domination and control on the false belief that, "all black people were insatiable sexual beasts." These beliefs legitimized the fear whites had for blacks, consequently, giving whites justification for using whatever method of cruelty necessary to control the apparent uncontrollable impulses of blacks; and it authorized the sexual exploitation of black women by white men and supported the myth that black women are promiscuous and immoral.
These beliefs also deified white women, positioning her as the consummate symbol of purity, beauty, goodness, and, virginity, which was to be cherished. Because of these embedded myths, black women even today, are inundated with reminders of their supposed inferiority to white women. The myth that black women are inferior and less attractive than white women, contributes to what W.E.B. Dubois calls the "double-consciousness" of black people. "Double-Consciousness" is the sense of always looking at oneself through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. Racism has caused Black people, and black women in particular, to have a "heightened awareness" in which we examine every situation invovling ourselves and whites.
Just like we must make room in our hearts and in our minds to create environments where there is freedom to discuss the gender issue, if there is ever to be racial justice, especially in the Kingdom of God, we must also do the same as it relates to racism.
Please know, that I second guessed myself, concerning writing these comments. I thought about whether or not the readers, (who are mostly white from what I can tell) would get on the defense, be offended, or fear that an angry black woman was on the loose. I was not angry when writing this e-mail. The anger that I do possess as it relates to racism and injustice in general, is being directed to positively bring about change whereever I am.
Right now, I am the only African-American women working for a predominately white church sponsored ministry, where 98% of the people I serve are white. We are learning from each other. By the way, I love the people I work for, as well as the people I serve in ministry.
My prayer was that we could learn from one another and that is exactly what we do. That's the beauty of racial reconciliation, when done right, it is a win-win situation.
Blessings,
Irie
:::posted by Irie on 2/28/2004 07:43:11 PM
Carmen,
Yes, I think Evans was sadly right on target.
One of the greatest blessings of my life over the past year was when my own family (not church) merged with an all-black church, blessed beyond all imagination! When they sang of freedom, It had a new sound. I often sang those words with the thought in my mind, "If you only knew how free ALL of you can be!" That day will come.
:::posted by Vicki on 2/28/2004 11:40:07 AM
Irie,
If you don't mind, would you send me an email with your school/personal email address. I would like to contact you off list. My email address is wclarkson@clarksons.org.
To all,
My wife, Linda, is on a women's retreat with some of the women from Granbury CoC right now. She called me last night around 9pm on a break to tell me that the woman who was doing the teaching/speaking (and the mother of our youth minister's wife) made a point of warning everyone there about the "extreme danger" we are in "over the next ten years from women being allowed to do what only men are supposed to do such as be in leadership, and ministry." Linda said she wanted to speak up and tell her that she had a daughter who IS a minister and that she totally disagreed with her statement but she was afraid that would cause too much trouble and shift the focus of the retreat which was not on this subject. The subject was just a side comment. Linda said if she gets a chance in a private moment she WILL mention it!
This is just another example of what we are up against in overcoming 1900 years of bad teaching, bad translation of Scripture, discrimination based on gender, and "brainwashing."
I just spent this week at ACU Lectureship and was so priviledged to get in on Carmen's 1st class, although a conflict kept me from the second. I love her classes because they stimulate my right brain which is the least used side of my gray matter these days--being quite left brained. We had a wonderful visit and coffee while waiting on tapes to be made on Wednesday afternoon!
:::posted by Wiley on 2/28/2004 07:01:18 AM
Hi Katie,
I know another African-American woman who was exceptionally talented, lyrically speaking, in the church of Christ. She was the choral director of an African-American COC School located in Texas. She has written a myriad of songs that the black COC sings and records, very rarely giving her any credit. Because of her gender, she was not "allowed" the use her gifts in the leadership of the church. I spoke to her brother not too long ago, and he informed me that she left the COC because it was literally killing her to have to repress her God given call. He told me she left the COC and is much healthier and using her gifts to Gods glory.
I also understand the sentiments of the writer who acknowledged the "double jeopordy" of being both black and a woman and the ramifications of that for society, and the church. Understanding those dynamics, I have recently completed a research paper for my Pastoral Theology class entitled, "A Triple Threat: Sexism, Classism, and Racism as Anger Triggers for African-American Women." It would be so easy to leave the COC and affiliate with another denomination that at least accepts us and our calls to ministry, but to have to deal with the "Triple Threat" is more challenging than one can imagine.
However, perhaps God has called us to "Stand" for such a time as this.
Blessings,
Irie
:::posted by Irie on 2/27/2004 01:46:41 PM
I like the heading The Washington Post gave to the story:
"The Ties That Inspire
Mpho Tutu Tried to Ignore the Call, But Her Heart Kept on Listening"
:::posted by Vicki on 2/26/2004 12:47:53 PM
While I'm at it, here's something I picked up from a more conventional source: Christian Century, February 10, 2004, filed this report.
"As the daughter of a clergyman who was the public face of the anti-apartheid movement, Mpho Tutu was accustomed to living in the shadow of her father, Archbishop Desmond Tutu of Cape Town, South Africa. But on January 17 in Alexandria, Virginia, the elder Tutu ceded the spotlight to his youngest daughter as he ordained her a priest in the Episcopal Church.
"When Mpho (pronounced M-poh), 40, decided to follow in the family business, it came as a surprise to both father and daughter. 'If you look at my bank balance, she is not so smart,' the elder Tutu joked... 'Her sister said, "You lived in a priest's house and you want to be a priest? You must be crazy!" We're glad she is crazy.'
"Entering the colonial Christ Church, where both George Washington and Robert E. Lee once worshiped, the younger Tutu was clearly moved, wiping a tear from her eye, as a procession of 60 people ushered her to the altar. The elder Tutu, 72, was equally moved after the service, when he removed his bishop's miter and knelt with three other bishops to be blessed by the new priests. Mpho smiled, placed her hands on her father's cheeks and gave him a small kiss.
"...Asked what she hopes to inherit from her Nobel Peace Prize-winning father, now retired, she said without pausing, 'Prayer. What kept his ministry alive, what sustains him, is his prayer.' Mpho... for a long time tried to avoid the call. 'On a list of the top ten things to do, becoming a priest was about 570,' she told the Washington Post. She is married to a Boston Globe sportswriter and has a seven-year-old daughter, Nyaniso. While working at an after-school program at an Episcopal church she realized she couldn't shake the call to ministry."
What moves me about this story is the emotional support for an adult daughter from a loving dad. Some of us are blessed with earthly fathers like that, and our heavenly Parent cares for us all in this same way.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/25/2004 06:25:43 PM
Friends, here's the text of a note I received a couple days ago by email. I asked permission from my new friend Jean to publish it here.
"Dear Katie, I was born into a Church of Christ family 56 years ago. I grew up in a small town in Michigan called Inkster. As a small child and through out my adult life, I questioned the issue of gender discrimination in and out of church. I am an African woman and race was already an issue so to find out that I had to "find my place" as a woman as well was too much. Eventually, in my adulthood, I left the church and joined the National Organization for Women. I felt I had do something to change things, and during that time that was an option. I have since made peace within myself about who I am.
"Today I was searching the Internet for an old friend who is a Church of Christ minister and came across this web site. At first I couldn't believe what I was reading and I read it over and over again, a WOMAN is a co-MINISTER! I promptly sent that page to one of my friends who is an ex-Church of Christ member, and is now a minister in "another" denomination. At this point in my life I don't see myself returning to the Church of Christ, however, I am happy to see these changes. By the way I married the "preacher's son" back in 1967.
Blessings to you and this ministry.
--- Jean B."
Sometimes I get questions about whether the Church of Christ ever REALLY loses members over the gender question. Well, yes, we do, and it's impossible to know how many. Most are not like Jean -- they don't write back to say hello! Wouldn't it have been grand if we had made room for Jean years ago? Wouldn't it be grand if we made room for many just like her right now?
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/25/2004 06:18:01 PM
If anyone besides Carmen is going to be at ACU Lectureship, Linda and I are already in Abilene. We will be at Southern Hills with our twin daughters tomorrow for the early service and they are taking us to their singles class after that! Be at ACU early for the start of the early praise and will be there until after Ken Young. If you want a complete schedule of where I am going to be, go over to GCM and it's listed. However, one place for certain you will find me will be in Carmen's classes!
Hope to see some of y'all there!
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/21/2004 11:37:30 PM
I will come in out of the shadows and throw in on the reaction-based-on-fear thread. My heritage of faith is deep in churches of Christ. Not wide-ranging perhaps, but long. And I am all for the peaceful resolution of the gender justice issue. This current discussion thread has made me rethink relationships I have, and have had, with people who have (or would have) reacted strongly against any notion of increasing the active leadership role of women in churches. Here are two ideas I will toss out for your cursory perusal and comment. For some, perhaps, their strong negative reaction may be partly fueled by past events where debate wars were waged and wounds were inflicted. They may react out of the reminder of that pain. My grandfather may have been one of those casualties. Also, I believe some of the backlash may be the result of the conviction that they understand what the Bible says and are applying it correctly. Reactions to what others say about the role of women is not so much personal as it is based on the conviction that the Bible teaches that those roles are restricted. Is any of that plausible? To close up, I really appreciate the idea mentioned earlier about the value of both study and re-study. Thanks for listening.
:::posted by tdubya on 2/19/2004 05:52:09 PM
Marissa, welcome and thanks for boldly going where no one wanted to go. :-) You make a very important point about the fears that can drive and cloud our study. I wonder what our own fears are.
:::posted by Chad on 2/19/2004 03:33:01 PM
Hi I'm new but I'm going to jump right in there....
In response to Chad's question:
"To what extent is the conversation we have concerning gender justice part of a larger discussion that involves other forms of (in)justice, i.e. racial, class-based, or sexual orientation? In other words, can progress in gender justice (however one defines that) be described as an end in itself apart from other spheres of human relatedness, or is it just a few drops in very big pond?"
"Human relatedness" is indeed a very big pond. One thing that is similar in each of the examples you gave is fear. When we have biases toward other people or groups of people, it is often driven by fear of unfamiliarity. When a conservative CoC-er hears that some churches are starting to include women in their public worship, they may respond by condemning the practice. This initial reaction is not the product of thorough study of the Word, it is a reaction fueled by the fact that something different is happening close to home. As a secondary reaction, they may think back on scripture studies they have conducted before, as affirmation that their feelings are right, and this new practice must be wrong. The problem is, ANY time we look in to the scripture for solutions or answers, we are biased, that is unavoidable. We cannot easily escape things held closely in our hearts such as tradition, parents' teachings, etc. Often times we are unaware they are even there.
- But in my experience, the main difference between those who stubbornly follow old ways and those who can overcome their biases to open their hearts - and podiums - to all Christians, is the element of study and re-study.
It is my constant prayer that all Christians will examine the things that make them the most uncomfortable, the most afraid. I believe God is doing wonderful things in this forum.
May Holy Spirit and Love drive our family to put down the biases and predjudices that were taught us, and move on toward a perfect Love in regards to all mankind.
In Jesus name.
-Marissa
:::posted by Marissa on 2/18/2004 12:09:49 AM
Chad,
Your question;
"So let me ask a question for us here: To what extent is the conversation we have concerning gender justice part of a larger discussion that involves other forms of (in)justice, i.e. racial, class-based, or sexual orientation? In other words, can progress in gender justice (however one defines that) be described as an end in itself apart from other spheres of human relatedness, or is it just a few drops in very big pond?"
Can I simply say that I think it is both, not either/or, and leave it at that without having to explain further? OK, let me try this; Kind of like a marriage is its own relationship, but is also part of a much bigger family of relationships. Not a good analogy, perhaps. I'll work on it.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/16/2004 02:43:21 PM
Tom, "stop saying that."
Seeing as how we are approaching the Cliffs of Insanity with Princess Bride quotes, I find it "inconceivable!" that no one wants to bite on my question. :-)
:::posted by Chad on 2/16/2004 09:22:46 AM
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my gender-neutral parental figure. Prepare to die!
Nope, doesn't have the right ring.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 2/13/2004 07:41:53 PM
Lance,
I think you're bluffing.
I am the Dread Pirate Roberts. All your worst nightmares are about to come true!
:::posted by Chad on 2/13/2004 06:00:24 PM
Chad,
Not to the death. To the pain.
:::posted by Lance on 2/13/2004 04:40:26 PM
Chad, I would answer your question but I know that our funny webmaster would kick me off and then reprimand me about the others who are reading. You probably don't want me to go there just now...
grace, Julie
I don't mean any offense Lance...as I typed I was laughing...
:::posted by julie on 2/13/2004 04:23:42 PM
To our webmaster who doubles as a comedian:
You're killing me. I challenge you to a battle of wits, to the death.
And ever heard of Groucho, Harpo, and Chico? Morons.
:-D
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 2/13/2004 03:35:08 PM
Comrade:
To quote Miracle Max (Billy Crystal) in The Princess Bride: "Thank you for bringing up a very painful subject. Now why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice in it."
First socialist propaganda. Then same-sex marriage. Why don't we just go for the hat trick and work through reproductive rights. Sheesh! Go read Marx or something, man! I'm forwarding the hate mail to you.
Am I serious? As Max would say: "I'm only mostly kidding." ;)
:::posted by Lance on 2/13/2004 03:07:37 PM
Comrades in blog - (with a happy greeting to our new Comrade Wells),
Seeing as how we all tend to enjoy topics with easy answers, I thought I'd raise one for the forum. As I'm sure you're all aware, the Massachusetts State Legistature has adjourned until March their recent debates over the issue of same-sex marriages. Contrary to the typical perception of Massachusetts as a "liberal" state, citizens here are as divided in their views as much as in the rest of the country, as one can easily see through the 4-3 Supreme Court vote that resulted in this constitutional convention, and also through the very close votes on the proposed amendments in the last two days.
So let me ask a question for us here: To what extent is the conversation we have concerning gender justice part of a larger discussion that involves other forms of (in)justice, i.e. racial, class-based, or sexual orientation? In other words, can progress in gender justice (however one defines that) be described as an end in itself apart from other spheres of human relatedness, or is it just a few drops in very big pond?
Interested in your thoughts...
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 2/13/2004 12:27:40 PM
Friends,
Back on 1/29/04 Katie referred to a Newsweek article of 1/26/04 on gender selection in Asia as an indication of the need for gender justice in our churches NOW. In that category also, I think, goes a story from this week's Religion and Ethics Newsweekly (www.pbs.org/religion). The last line leaves me saying, "Ouch!"
"Using only a 35mm camera, writer-director Siddiq Barmak brings the story of a young girl living in Kabul under the Taliban regime to the big screen in his first feature film, OSAMA. Winner of the 2003 Golden Globe Award for best foreign language film, OSAMA is based on the true story of a 12 year-old Afghan girl who is forced by desperate circumstances to masquerade as a boy to help support her family, since only males are allowed to work. She finds menial labor in the shop of an old Army comrade of her father until she is forcibly taken away to a Taliban school where she is called to prayer and taught the most intimate of male religious rituals. There, Osama's true identity is discovered and she is jailed for her deception. Mary Alice Wiliams reviews this haunting film, which she says, "portrays an essential truth, casting a searing light on those who would use religion to oppress the very people they presume to lead."
David Fritz
Amityville, NY
:::posted by Fritz on 2/12/2004 10:01:41 AM
Julie,
If you would like to see a few photos of the three churches that Booty works with, go to http://www.clarksons.org/photogallery/Iglesia.html . He sent me these a couple of months ago.
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/11/2004 10:30:39 PM
Booty, so good to see you here...we were friends on Gracecenteredmagazine forum and you prayed for the children of our small group and their lizard...they will always hold you in high esteem because of that. I am so excited about what is happening in Venezuala...I think I heard those chains falling all the way up here in Maryland.
Kevin, welcome. We join hands with you most willingly and with eager anticipation for the future.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/11/2004 12:42:05 PM
Greetings to all comrads in Christ,
I wish I had a pithy Marx quote to follow up on bro. Smith, but I got nothin'.
As a new member to this blogging community, I wish to offer encouragement to others in the pursuit for gender justice in Churches of Christ. After visiting the Brooline church, my wife and I have seen what a community is like, when gender is no longer an issue in church life. The challenge is to share this experience with others. I'm afraid that until our churches see gender justice in practice, then comfortable interpretations of Scripture supporting the status quo will carry the day. However, I am optimistic . . . and I am truly refreshed. I no longer simply hold a position that makes me feel pleasantly egalatarian. Compassion for all God's people, and love for the kingdom, dictates that I must cast my lot with you . . . and I do so with gladness.
My God's Spirit guide all of our efforts.
oh, and I wanna send a shout out to Brent and Jennifer!
Kevin Wells
:::posted by Kevin Wells on 2/09/2004 07:29:45 PM
This past Sunday, la iglesia de Cristo, (That is church of Christ), Puerto Piritu, Edo Anzoategui, Venezuela held it´s first all female directed service.
We have been blessed by our Lord!! No lightning bolts appeared, to a man we were wonderfully edified and we are unanymous in our support of this miracle of our Lord.
Hearing the chains of bondage hitting the floor in a clarion ring of Liberty In Christ Jesus was music unto my ears!
My sisters were well prepared and did it all with a passion that I wish we could see more of in the pulpit. I am honoured to share the pulpit with them!
PRAISE THE LORD!!
:::posted by Booty on 2/09/2004 04:56:00 PM
Carmen, your point about where the little girl was found in Florida is well-taken. I prayed for that church yesterday because I knew that would be a painful day for them. I didn't think to pray that they think about the little girls they have in their own family and use those gifts and protect those gifts from not only outside forces but also from within. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/09/2004 02:50:21 PM
"Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it." - Karl Marx, Theses on Feuerbach
Vicki, you can change the world. You are changing the world. Never forget that God's preferred method of divine intervention in this world is a human one.
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 2/08/2004 05:10:59 AM
I can't change the world. I don't think I 'm supposed to, nor is it my calling. I believe I'm supposed to make a difference for each life mine touches with the Light Who brought/bought full Redemption for all - one life at a time. I can do that. I can host a party. I leave changing the world to my Savior.
-Vicki
Chad - I remember your hammer story! It was great!
:::posted by Vicki on 2/07/2004 07:28:21 PM
Hi folks,
It has been a while since I posted. I was unable to get in and then life got very busy.
I was sitting here with my 3 week old daughter on my lap reading about baby girls in China and weeping. I just can't imagine making that choice or even considering it. (esp after how lousy I felt while pregnant and how long and difficult her birth was) It just boggles my mind and yet I know that women do it every day. I thought about the midwife who attended me and I can't imagine her working in a culture that accepted that behavoir. She is a Christian and I can see her being more like the Hebrew midwives in that situation.
I know of a couple who were active in trying to get abandoned baby girls adopted out of chineese orphanages. They were living near one and observed that the baby girls usually died within a short time of arriving at the orphanage. They had to be at least 2 when they arrived to survive the conditions there. They met resistance from the government in trying to get these girls adopted by westerners and wound up leaving the country hastily to avoid prison. It makes you wonder about a country that not only allows murder of baby girls but even resists those who try to save them.
I think Chad has made a terrific point. Not only do we need to go to the party but we should be the hosts of it. Sometimes in attempting to host the party it doesn't feel much like a party but that doesn't diminish our need to organize it. Now how do we get our invitees to RSVP and then show up?...
Patty
St. Louis, MO
:::posted by Patty on 2/07/2004 11:46:02 AM
Okay so y'all will have to forgive my pursuit of this metaphor today...I don't mean to make light of serious issues, but what else can one do in a New England blizzard?! I dream of Jeannie on a beach in Hawaii. :-D
Katie & David - I suspect the question you are both asking is, "What time is it?" The answer, of course, is always relative to location. There may be a justice party in some places but not in others. Does it really matter if we're early or late? Maybe it just matters that we show up eventually. And bring lots of friends. It's certainly better form to show up on time, or at least fashionably late. Some people will be complete party poopers and stay home. Others might try and crash the party. Or if the party hasn't started in certain corners, maybe we need to take some vacation and show the locals how to really shake it up with the saints.
Speaking generally, perhaps our churches cut across three "time zones". (Note: the inner homeboy in me is REALLY wanting to say, "It's HAMMER-TIME!" but I'm going with a different image today.)
1) Repentance time - I suspect this is where most of us live, i.e. caught in the those blinding lights of conviction that David notes. What then? Turn around, throw a new kind of party, and "live it up" in a new way.
2) Preparation time - If we want to throw a new kind of party, don't we need to prepare? Get all our supplies, make hors d'œuvres, invite the guests, dress to the nines, clean the house, etc? Parties take preparation, and we must prepare to be good hosts.
3) Action time - Party like it's 1999. Or as if the Host with the Most finally showed up and is getting down with us.
Anyone for a party this year?
From your friendly New England Party Preacher,
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 2/06/2004 02:28:42 PM
Early morning ramblings from a social worker who wants to take Katie's question out for a spin. If the issue of how we view gender justice in our churches can be related to how we church members view economic justice, then it seems to me that the church is late for the party. Can it be said that sometimes we may not even be aware that the party is on?
An illustration. Let's say that the congregation agrees to take up together the reading of Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed." Let's see the lights go on, revealing that one's material poverty is not due to a moral failing after all, but that it is due to systemic and structural forces which do not allow one to earn a living wage, and due to a series of oppressive forces which cause one to work at multiple back-breaking jobs only to be left with the choice of contributing either to the rent or to a meal.
Those lights can be blinding. Once they come on, what then?
David Fritz
Amityville, NY
:::posted by Fritz on 2/06/2004 01:09:59 AM
Well, it's an interesting question, isn't it? If the church promotes gender (or racial or economic) justice, is it picking up on the Spirit-planted impulses in our society for "liberty and justice for all"? Or is it the other way around -- by the power of the Spirit, the church will lead society to just treatment for all people created in God's image regardless of gender, skin color, etc...?
In other words, are we late or early for this party? Who is being dragged kicking and screaming into God's new world order, the church or the culture?
Opinions?
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/05/2004 04:05:27 PM
Julie,
Well, just to play the devil's advocate, I have to wonder how responsible it would have been of the airline, especially in a post 9/11 world, to allow people to board when they have conflicting identification. If a man who had changed his named tried to board with two conflicting pieces of id they probably would have sent him home to get the court order proving he had changed his name. The literature should say what to do in the event of a name change. I have no doubt that they were using the situation to their convience and that they might overlooked the problem if the flight hadn't been so full.
My brother has a hispanic sounding name (although it is actually Portuguese, but people are too dumb to know that). He looks kind of alternative and has dark tanned skin. He gets pulled over by the Police in his town about once a week, even when he's riding his bicycle. Once he got pulled over by a cop who said, "I'm looking for a guy named Juan and you meet his description." My brother said, "But my name's not Juan." And the cop said, "But you look like your name is Juan." This same cop had harrassed him numerous times before and already knew him by name. Needless to say my brother distrusts people in law enforcement.
:::posted by Indie on 2/05/2004 01:50:54 PM
I am sitting at the library typing this...internet is down at home. I had lots of conversation to catch up on. Katie, I read the article you mentioned on the plane on my way back from Mexico. So upsetting. Ann and I went to Mexico to relax for five days. Wonderful trip!! But on the way to Mexico we experienced discrimination because we were married women traveling without our husbands. The airline had overbooked the flight from Atlanta to Cancun and were obviously looking for ways to bump passengers from the flight without compensation. All the literature said that we either needed a passport or a birth certificate to board and we brought our birth certificates. We got to the counter and showed our identification and the man behind the counter said that we couldn't get on the flight. We had been so looking forward to sun, and water, and warmth and we couldn't believe that he was denying us the right to board. Both the man at the counter and the representative from the airline were extremely rude and became even more so when we mentioned that it was discrimination to deny us boarding because our birth certificates didn't match our driver's licenses.(of course, we weren't married when we were born) We were not the only ones bumped from the flight but all of us were married women traveling without our spouses. We had to trek the Atlanta airport to the office of denied boarding....where Warren( an extremely nice man despite his job) in the Office of Denied Boarding made affividavits for us to prove we were who we said we were...that cost us $40 for each. Then we had to go back to the ticket counter and try to get on another flight...long story to say...we truly felt discriminated against...it is a terrible feeling...and nothing we said or did would change the process. Wow...we have some letter writing to do...to the Atlanta airport and to Delta airlines...apparently they do this often.
Tom, we are doing another Praise Night on March 6th. I don't think that I have your email address. Get mine from Lance and email me. It would great if you could bring a whole group from Frederick.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/04/2004 01:30:28 PM
I'm reading "Why Not Women?" by Loren Cunningham and David Hamilton. A great deal of the material is devoted to historical and present day treatment/teachings/beliefs of baby girls and women. Much like the posts of the past few days, one cannot read about these things without weeping uncontrollably.
:::posted by Vicki on 2/01/2004 01:17:22 AM
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