The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Speaking of R-rated biblical texts…
I’m working on the Exodus study in Hillcrest Publishing’s “Streams of Mercy” series and the following text kept coming to mind as I read the thread Katie started:The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, “When you act as midwives to the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, she shall live.” But the midwives feared God; they did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but they let the boys live. So the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and allowed the boys to live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and became very strong. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every boy that is born to the Hebrews you shall throw into the Nile, but you shall let every girl live.” (Exodus 1:15-22)
Sexism is always a Power for death. In Asia they are killing baby girls. Under Pharaoh's tyranny, sexism (the assumption that male life is more significant) proves to be surprisingly egalitarian in its death-dealing.
Sexism is always a Power for death. This is true even when, as in our culture, infanticide has been taken off the table. In fact, Powers for death seem to prefer to feast on the living. Why devour in one day (infanticide) what you can savor for a lifetime (“Honey, Timothy Club is just for the little boys.”)? Death is not always about corpses. The Exodus story supplies an instructive parallel: would anyone seriously care to argue that anti-Semitism was not a Power for death in Egypt or Germany long before the rise of “a new king" in those superpowers? The Nile afloat with corpses and the mountains of human carnage at Auschwitz were just the end game.
Sexism is always a Power for death. Like any self-respecting Power for death, sexism has learned the value of clothing itself in language that disguises its death-dealing ways. Thus, “stillbirth:” an expedient fiction that allows people to step over the corpses of murdered newborns and go about their business as if the world actually makes sense. (Interestingly, the midwives of Egypt prove that such world-making fictions can work both ways: “Those Hebrew women are fast!”)
Sexism is always a Power for death. If Jennifer is right and the differences between the situation in Asia and the U.S. are not qualitative, it follows that we should be on the lookout for the linguistic “clothing” that covers our atrocities. I nominate the “C” word. (Yes, Chad, I’m going on about “complementarianism” again!)
And did I mention that sexism is always a Power for death? Anyone interested in reading more about such Powers and Principalities should take a look at William Stringfellow, Free in Obedience.
:::posted by Lance on 1/29/2004 04:20:09 PM
Book review was from David Fritz, just so you know, who is one of my shepherds. He's never steered me wrong with book recs.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/29/2004 02:35:05 PM
Having just returned from China, Katie's post hits hard. It's difficult to get a handle on cultural attitudes like gender preference as a foreigner. Not many people want to have those kinds of discussions with you--you only get the highlights, the real positives, of Chinese culture presented to you. I guess it's natural. But it leaves me with a real sense of not having any idea what the country is really like, and that after 2 years of living and teaching there. I heard a lot of discussion while I was there on the "women's movement" in China. There's a lot of media hoopla about it, how far women have come, blah blah blah, especially around "International Women's Day" (which they are stunned to find that America does not even know about). My instinct about all of this was, gosh, they're trying so hard to convince us that everything is great...so what's really going on?
My feeling at this point is that all of the "women's movement" stuff is an engineered veneer to cover up the unchanged and very oppressive basic attitudes that persist. (Really, my estimation of China on this isn't all that different from my estimation of American culture--perhaps a difference of degree but not kind.) The strategy of "fixing" a problem by creating the appearance of having no problem is fairly typical. I say this with a bit of trepidation because I'm no expert, and critiquing a foreign culture always ends up sounding closed-minded and ethnocentric. But the detail that the midwives pronounce the child a "stillbirth" is significant to me. It allows everyone to assent to that fiction and live it as the truth, and then there's no need for embarrassment or recrimination--or repentance. I find this aspect of Chinese culture troubling, because it makes it possible for terrible problems to persist as everyone talks around them and pretends they aren't there.
Brent and I were very unhappy all last year with the way gender issues were (not) handled within our group. (In fact, that was the impetus that led me to finally join the forum instead of just eavesdropping. I was in desperate need of support.) We had so many capable, intelligent women--an English teacher, an engineering doctoral candidate, university students--who came in and observed the all-male leadership of our worship, and accepted it without a single word or question. Our big worry was exactly what Katie expressed: how are we supposed to witness to these women when our worship testifies against our message?
One of the pitches of the "China Now" group (which sends Church of Christ people as English teachers) is that the people we interact with, students and school administrators, etc., are the people who will eventually occupy positions capable of changing China's future--that is, educated, profession, urban people. If that's true, so far we've failed as a group to make any impact on people with regard to the issue of gender justice. We have promoted the status quo and made it that much easier for people to avoid thinking about the fact that girl babies are being killed or abandoned because they're not wanted.
I realize this is an extremely unhappy post and I wish I could somehow soften the last paragraph, but I can't. Avoiding the truth is just another way of being complicit in that evil.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/29/2004 10:13:07 AM
Katie,
Wow. The first thing that came to my mind on reading your thoughts is that Jesus didn't wait to treat women justly in fear of the impact on his message in a mysogynistic society. He did what was right (of course). So should we. Cultural sensitivity is important, and always a challenge in mission work, but being sensitive to a culture doesn't mean we don't teach the ideal modeled by Jesus.
Thanks for something to chew on.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 1/29/2004 09:52:30 AM
There was a stomach-turning reminder in last week's Newsweek about yet another compelling reason for gender justice in our churches NOW. We (me included!) tend to imagine well-off, college-educated women of various ages who have been denied their "right" (ugh) to make public expressions of faith. We (rightly) mourn the diminishment of self that upper-and-middle-class American women experience in our denomination. ("If she can be CEO or a doctor or a teacher," we ask, "why not a songleader?") Lots of us are in therapy owing to this very diminishing, the sense that our selves disappear on Sunday morning for an hour or so.
But there is a broader, deeper gender discrimination that therapy and prayer cannot heal. Newsweek (January 26, 2004), in an article on new techniques of gender selection in expensive fertility treatments, included a sidebar on gender selection in Asia. It is not unusual, reports the article, for impoverished women in one country to give birth in seclusion with a paid helper. The helper is paid about eighty cents for her midwifery, and another eighty cents to murder the infant after it is born if it is female, declaring a stillbirth. Raising children is expensive, and baby boys who grow up to earn money (often before adolescence) are the only chance to make it financially feasible.
Yes, this is a complicated (and heartbreaking) set of issues: the extreme poverty and hopelessness; the burden on women to produce children but only the right sex, under frightening conditions; the thin, wavery line between abortion and infanticide; and more. I assume we could spend our lifetimes talking and talking and talking about these things.
But for the purposes of this website, I want to try to make another point about it. We know that God grieves each time one of these newborn girls loses her brand-new life to the prejudice of the society in which she was born, don't we? Wouldn't God expect the church, as Christ's body on earth, to have something to do with the ending of that practice? Wouldn't the ending of that practice require such a compelling testimony of God's love and nurture for all people -- the unbelievably high value God has placed on each of us regardless of gender! -- that the practice would fade away as people's hearts changed?
But how does the church testify to God's outpouring of love and Spirit on all people when it does not itself practice such in its life together? To bring it down to the concrete, I have a hard time imagining a missionary in India instilling an ethic of love for all babies, male and female, while at the same time holding worship services in which women are silenced and men continue to serve exclusively as leaders and/or decision-makers.
We have said on this site many times that the gender question is a question of the church's witness in the world. And it is certainly true that here in the U.S. we have a hard time evangelizing women who fully expect equal treatment in the high-powered workplaces of our cities and suburbs if our churches are retro-patriarchal. But our witness suffers in the world, too, including countries where women's subordination (and girls' worthlessness) is taken for granted.
I have at times been persuaded that gender justice is an idea whose time has come in the U.S., and perhaps some western European countries, but we should leave well enough alone on the mission field. The Newsweek piece is causing me to rethink. Any opinions out there? Any ethicists? Help!
Psa. 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation,
for the glory of your name;
deliver us, and forgive our sins,
for your name’s sake.
grace, for when we cannot have peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/29/2004 08:34:32 AM
I read Sumner's book in June and it is a excellent book, IMO. Well worth the money to purchase it. I have read it three times so far: the first using a bookmark, the second a highlighter, and the third -I read my highlights!
:::posted by Wiley on 1/28/2004 09:52:04 PM
Friends,
There is a book review worth sharing by Susan Finck-Lockhart, pastor and free-lance writer from near Waco, TX. The review appeared in the January/February 2004 issue of Prism, the bi-monthly magazine published by Evangelicals for Social Action (www.esa-online.org). I have received permission from ESA to share it with this forum. With Lance's permission I would post the entire review, but it is 1,002 words in length. Without Lance's permission, I'll just share the first 267 words. You might want to log on to Amazon.com to check out the book covers. If you would like to see the entire review, send me a request in a private post.
Men and Women in the Church
by Sarah Sumner
Intervarsity Press
The Case for Biblical Equality--An Appeal for Gender Justness in the Church
by Arden Thiessen
Guardian Books
"Two new books join the array of current perspectives on the women-in-the-church issue, one by a male Canadian pastor and the other by a female American professor. While both have drawbacks in terms of style and 'packaging,' both reach the same bottom-line conclusion: Scripture, when rightly interpreted, supports--rather than limits--the ministry of women.
"The old adage that you can't judge a book by its cover certainly holds true for these two books. Sumner's cover features the words 'Men' and 'in the Church' in a serif typeface that exudes stability and seriousness while the word 'Women' appears in an embellished cursive script. The implication, however subliminal, is that men in the church are to be taken seriously while women are lightweight and decorative. This is a shame, because the exterior design sends a vastly different message from that of the content, which consists of excellent, detailed scholarship and conclusions which affirm that women are to be taken seriously at all levels within the Body of Christ.
"Thiessen's cover features cartoonish depictions of a man and woman hanging on swings from opposite ends of a giant cross. The graphics mask the seriousness and insightful nature of the author's arguments and the grand scope of the issue, which he describes concisely and simply for a broad audience.
"Getting past the covers, the books are quite different in style, approach, and intellectual appeal. The most striking difference in argument centers around the Holy Spirit's role. While Summer rarely mentions the Holy Spirit, Thiessen equates affirming the ministry of women with 'opening our churches to the work of the Spirit.'"
David Fritz
Amityville, NY
dmfritz1@optonline.net
:::posted by Fritz on 1/28/2004 07:46:55 PM
Wiley, we will indeed keep Shannon in our prayers. Thanks for sharing. The exceptional fact of a woman in ministry seems sort of transcendent, somehow; but the nitty-gritty facts of doing the job means that women, too, get hired and fired according to standards that seem more or less fair depending on where you're standing.
Hang in there, Shannon! God did not bring you this far to let you fall now. [Can anyone tell I'm halfway through The Sparrow, recommended highly on this very forum? Can't put it down, except for a brief post now and then.]
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/26/2004 06:10:36 PM
Well, the axe fell very unexpectedly on my daughter tonight and she was told just a few weeks ago her job appeared safe for another year. Can't say alot about it right now but I am having mixed feelings from being quite hacked to quite relieved. Shannon said she feels like a load has been lifted off her shoulders and God has given her the sign she has prayed for regarding her future with the church there. Please pray that God will open a window for her somewhere in the next three months and that she will be able to continue in ministry. The church of Christ badly needs ministers with her heart for ministry!
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 1/25/2004 09:23:10 PM
Thanks, Jen! :)
:::posted by Vicki on 1/24/2004 01:52:59 PM
(G)
The rating is for Vickie, just in case her kids are looking over her shoulder ...
Jennifer -- Thanks for that recommendation. If it's like Dune (the only science-fiction novel I have read) I should enjoy it. I live with two science-fiction fanatics, so I'm sure The Sparrow will make the rounds.
You might like Evensong a novel by Gail Godwin about a woman Episcopal priest in a small town. The characters are appealing and there are nice long stretches of very authentic dialogue. This week my book club is on Lillith by George MacDonald. I just finished Touching God by Ellyn Sanna, a devotional guide about biblical metaphors. And Chad, I just picked up a copy of Blue Shoe by Anne Lamont, and I plan to have a look at it this week.
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/24/2004 01:24:00 AM
Yep, it was Rick. I read them through twice before lending my copies to a friend here at school. So, thanks for the recommendation!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/23/2004 09:51:42 AM
Jen - did Rick recommend the Russell books to you? The Sparrow is one of my top 3 favorite books and I give it to everyone (including Rick!). We just read both last fall for our church book group.
If anyone's interested in looking at something on religion, psychology, 19th-century history, with a little bit of gender study thrown in for good measure - check out Ruth Harris's Lourdes: Body and Spirit in the Secular Age. Great piece of historical writing on the famous healing shrine in France.
Carmen - all my sermons are "R" rated, just like Scripture and Anne Lammott. ;-) I guess I'm only half-kidding. Maybe "R" for "Real Life demands getting our hands dirty in both the glamour and squalor of God's creation"?
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 1/23/2004 09:05:09 AM
Carmen,
An author I've really enjoyed lately is Mary Doria Russell. A friend recommended The Sparrow and its sequel, Children of God. It's intelligent science fiction with explicitly religious and philosophical issues woven into the plot. I don't know if you're into sci fi, but this book might reach across those genre divisions effectively enough to catch your interest even if you're not. I offer this recommendation in hopes that you have one for me!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/22/2004 10:47:33 PM
Vic: My 15 year-old son got a kick out of this site. He discovered it last week while home with a sinus infection. I think he found the link in the online edition of The Wittenberg Door. He's ok with the sexual stuff. We've read the Bible to him for years and never witheld or glossed over any of the kinky or difficult parts (especially about parents executing their children for disobedience ... "What do you think we should do about our son's attitude, dear?" "Stone him." ...), and we are all eagerly waiting for the Brick Testament Life of King David ...(watch for the "S's"!)
Chad: Have you considered rating your sermons?
Tom: I know what you mean about the 1Cor.11! Hilarious! But for the first time I noticed that the wife's head is entirely out of the descriptive equation! Her body is there, but once the hierarchal power structure begins her head just dissappears ... Not only is that spooky, but it makes no logical sense. Her head has to be somewhere. It got me to thinking that if the bodies were in a circle -- like a family -- then her head would end up on God's body ... but veiled.
Jennifer: One of these days we will need to exchange favorite book lists!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/20/2004 12:42:00 PM
Carmen - I don't know...I might get myself into too much trouble with Legos. I am already banned from preaching on the "Consider the lillies..." text in Matthew because my favorite quote from "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" is - how should I put this - an "interesting" gloss! (My mother would tell you I get my rowdy, sometimes debased sense of humor from my father; he and I would just say we're comedic geniuses...I couldn't tell you what the TRUTH is, however.) ;-)
Ah...back to work and dreams of Legos.
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 1/20/2004 10:11:56 AM
Brent was on the Internet for an hour enjoying the instructions on marriage (among others). Thanks for the entertainment! I just wanted to say that I've read Sophie's World twice now and that I think it's brilliant. It really captures the fun part of philosophy through the character of Sophie--the feeling of squeezing your brain really hard to grasp at something, and then realizing that you've got it, like a clear diamond of a thought that you can turn over and admire and ponder. And I really loved the lego image in it as well. Really, whoever came up with legos was a genius--although I doubt she?/he? could've foreseen the, um, particular educational purposes they were put to in that website!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/20/2004 08:23:37 AM
As long as no one uses LEGOS® as a visual aid... If they do, I will have to be carried out!
(My 16 year-old son quietly left the room. No telling what he was thinking!)
:::posted by Vicki on 1/20/2004 01:07:41 AM
Your 12-year-old daughter? It was my 16-year-old daughter! Yikes! Good thing we've already had "the talk!"
But the "husband is the head of the wife" verse explained with a male head on a female body was just too funny! Next time someone tries to use the Ephesians passage as justification for male only leadership, I'm going to crack up thinking of that image.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 1/19/2004 11:32:08 PM
LEGOS® will never look the same to me again! (My 12 year old daughter buried her face in her hands and cried, "Too much information!" LOL!!!)
:::posted by Vicki on 1/19/2004 06:30:50 PM
Sorry Vic! I forgot to mention to pay attention to the rating scheme! There are several stories your children can enjoy with supervision.
Has anyone read the philosophy edu-novel Sophie's World? There was a chapter about lego blocks that reminds me of this project. Also, science writer K. C. Cole uses the image of legos to unveil the secrets of the cosmos.
Chad -- Dust off those legos! I'd love to see a talented legomaniac do a church history website!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/19/2004 05:35:00 PM
ACK! I made the mistake of looking at one of the other links on marriage with my children standing beside me!
:::posted by Vicki on 1/19/2004 04:27:02 PM
*sniff* - almost makes me miss "the good ol' days"....of playing with Legos, that is. :-D
That's some funny stuff, Carmen.
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 1/19/2004 10:57:37 AM
Carmen,
I like to laugh, too. What a hoot!
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 1/18/2004 10:34:35 PM
Ok. This is for Julie because she likes to laugh ...
http://www.thereverend.com/brick_testament/the_epistles/instructions_for_women/1co11_04.html
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/18/2004 08:14:00 PM
Carmen,
confirmed! They won't be on the late night coffee during the week because they don't get off work untill 11:30pm but I think they are looking forward to Dad buying some breakfast for them! OUCH! Why is it kids always want food (or money) when a parent comes to visit!!!!!!
Glad everything has calmed down again for a minute or two.
:::posted by Wiley on 1/17/2004 07:08:45 AM
Julie,
thanks for the info. the info we got was apparently not quite correct :>( Imagine that!! That information makes the dissappointment less of a dissappointment, but as I said before, I think I prefer keeping River close to her grandparents :>) ! It really is an amazingly small world in our churches! Maybe we will meet him along the way (and you). If you talk to him before he leaves, wish him a safe trip down for me.
Let me know what his name is in case our paths cross along the way! Shannon is at a national youth conference in Colorado Springs at Glen Aire (bet i didn't spell that right!!!) this weekend into next week which is a good break from the all the pressures of this last year!
:::posted by Wiley on 1/17/2004 06:56:17 AM
Hey Wiley!
Meet you at The Bean! We'll drink the black death and maybe I'll meet the twins.
I can't wait!!!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/16/2004 10:07:00 PM
Hey, just a note to Wiley. The man you described who got the children's ministry position at the Central Church of Christ in Amarillo is my brother-in-law. He is not from Amarillo, in fact has never lived there. He is living in New England right now but leaves for Amarillo in a couple of weeks. Weird how small the world is, huh? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/15/2004 11:57:31 PM
Friends,
It's good to hear your voices. Thought you might like to know that there is another conversation going on specifically for women in Churches of Christ who make their living as ministers. It's called the Women in Ministry Network, headed up by Amy Bost-Henegar who has worked in hospital chaplaincy and currently serves as the children's minister at the Manhattan Church of Christ.
We usually have two kinds of e-mail conversations going on concurrently. First, we talk about what it means and feels like to be a rare woman in ministry in this denomination. We can offer lots of encouragement and safely express lots of heartache to each other.
Second, we discuss the actual work of ministry -- classes we're teaching, pastoral situations we're wondering about, resources we've found helpful, and more. We are each others' virtual colleagues, since we are spread out all over the country and most of us have never met each other.
The Women in Ministry Network includes several dozen women who work as youth ministers, campus chaplains, children's ministers, preachers, hospital/hospice chaplains, outreach ministers, and more specialties that I'm forgetting. Your prayers are coveted; be assured that the women in this network pray fervently for you and your congregation, wherever you are!
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/15/2004 12:54:57 PM
Wow. It has been awhile since I last posted. This past year has brought many gender firsts for our congregation. And many personal firsts...I really thought that it would never happen in my lifetime but I wanted it for my daughters and my sons. I love to see everyone's faces when reading scripture, before and after a public prayer, leading praise, and talking around the communion table. I hope to see more of that over the next year. I am thankful for this group...your encouragement, laughter, and intense love of God has pulled me through parts of the gender justice struggle. I know that as a movement we have a long way to go but God is good and moving in our lives and in the lives of others. I will work harder at trusting my great big God to change hearts....I know that I am not capable of that.....so.....during this next year, let's join together in prayer for gender justice...not just in practice but with a deep understanding of God's love for men and women and how together we can be a force of the Spirit.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/14/2004 12:36:55 AM
Carmen,
I'll hold a seat for you in the front row when Katie or De'Esta speaks and it WILL happen one of these days :>) ! Mark is probably get tired of hearing from me about that subject :>) Oh, and let's shoot for the opening Key-note on Sunday evening!
I'll be watching for you in the cafeteria. Coffee sounds good to me. I plan to take in Hallal after the evening worship. If you will be in drinking coffee after that, we will definitly get together. I'm one of those late night people whose body has an alarm clock that goes off about 4.5 hours after laying down (if I'm lucky). In bed at 0100 and up and going around 0500 to 0530. Too many years of shift work!
Kristie and Kathe have moved to a duplex across Judge Ely from the Performing Arts building so I'm close to sleeping quarters and I have their permission stay out late (being all grown up!)! Liberal curfue hours! I may even bring my trail bicycle out!
I don't know if Shannon is planning to show up or not. She usually goes to the conference that picks up on Thursday after Lectureship but she has been to Amarillo twice in the last 30 days on interviews and she might not be going anywhere for a while. She was in the final running for a CM job at Central where Dan Bouchelle preaches, but lost out to a 50 year old man who was already a well known member of Central. She is talking to SW CoC in Amarillo this weekend but it appears to be about the same kind of church as Turnpike when it comes to working with underpriviledged kids so that will probably influence her quite a bit. Linda and I really wanted to see her get the job at Central--if she was going to have to move out of the Metroplex area. Now, we just as soon see her stay where she is and wait for God to open some new doors. Besides, Linda and I are just not too keen on the idea of that grandbaby moving out of easy driving distance (apx 130 miles one way!).
Almost time to leave for Granbury. God bless and I'm looking forward to your classes. If I'm lucky, I may even have the twins with me (if they can get out of classes).
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 1/11/2004 07:41:50 AM
Hey Wiley!
I'd love to see you whether you can make my lecture or not ... but if you do, (and not to put on the pressure, but this will be last time I speak at a lectureship) this time I'll give you a proper greeting and not confuse you for the computer technician. But you can always catch me at the cafeteria ingesting coffee in the wee hours. I'd like to see Fate too, but an old friend that I haven't seen for 20 years will be speaking at the same time.
Will Shannon be attending the ACU lectures?
I hope things are going well at that other website...
Carmen
P.S. I'll be in the front row the day Katie or D'Esta or any qualified, gifted woman is invited to key-note!
:::posted by Carmen on 1/11/2004 01:24:00 AM
:::posted by Wiley on 1/10/2004 09:44:03 PM
Hello Irie, Katie, Carmen -- and everyone else.
I've been so busy the last few weeks with work, family, and problems on another forum that needed to be worked out, I haven't had time to follow much of what's been going on over here.
Irie,
I'm really glad you decided to come in on gal328 forum. Another voice in Texas is great! My oldest daughter, Shannon Rains, is the Children's Minister for Turnpike CoC in Grand Prairie. Unfortunately, she has experienced that prejudice toward females in ministry that you have experienced, just directed slightly differently. It is frustrating for her and her husband and it is very frustrating for her parents and sisters! Even though she is not geared to preaching, she is strongly geared to working with underprivledged kids and also their parents, when the parents are willing. That has proved to be a real problem to some of the elders at her decidely middle class congregation and it has caused her some real problems. They are more a talk the talk but not walk the walk type church when it comes to women and underpriviledged kids. If it was up to the preaching minister, they would walk the walk but I guess we all know how that works. I am going to be trying to convince our church to look at him seriously coming up in our minister search.
My wife and I live at Walnut Springs (13 miles south of Glen Rose) and are members of the Granbury CoC which, unfortunately, is still a solidly complimentarian, middle class, just barily multi-ethnic church with an underground gender just movement that will surface one of these days. The eldership (13 men) are very hesitant to even try to discuss the gender issue. The numbers are growing but they are growing slowly but we are still too few in a congregation of 850 to push the issue to the surface right now. We do have one sympathetic elder because of his daughter who was a youth intern last summer and that started him studying the gender issue through a new set of bifocals! I've kind of helped him along on that :>) He is the leader of our small group so we have time to talk occassionally. In fact, he and his wife, without really knowing it, actually started the interest in becoming a childrens minister in our daughter when she was in the 7th grade. A simple act of kindness led to her being the third female to graduate from ACU Graduate School of theology with a Masters in something like Christian Ministry or Education. Can't really remember right now (getting old!).
Just wanted to introduce myself to you and say hi to everyone. I keep suggesting to Mark Love at ACU every year that he put Katie on the featured speakers list for Lectureship but I haven't had much luck yet!!!
Oh, before I forget-
Carmen,
see you at Lectureship. I have your classes highlighted in my catalog (along with Fate's on Wednesday!)
Grace to you and peace.
Wiley Clarkson
:::posted by Wiley on 1/10/2004 08:56:42 PM
Yikes Chad. That's really cold. I needed someone to remind me of one of the good reasons I moved away.
:::posted by Indie on 1/09/2004 07:12:53 PM
Irie -
Glad you know Larry. He's my old minister from Richardson East and informed me that at CDC women are fully involved in leadership at the traditionally highest levels. To my knowledge that makes it the only CoC in the Dallas area like it; others like Preston Road are stuck in the "complementarian compromise," as Lance likes to call it. I think some others that are gender-inclusive dropped CoC connections (I'm thinking Lake Highlands here).
Blessings,
Chad
Boston, MA - where it is officially 1 degree!!!!!
:::posted by Chad on 1/09/2004 09:46:57 AM
Katie,
I am quite familiar with Central Dallas Ministries and Larry James. As a matter of fact the Central Dallas Ministry has launched the "Christ Care Clinic" at Preston Road COC. Also just a few weeks ago, Larry and I both attended a Community luncheon and sat at the same table. Although I have never worshiped at Central Dallas Church, I know several people who have. I'm not sure how involved women are in the worship service, or whether they have ever afforded women the opportunity to preach. I'll check it out.
Be Blessed,
Irie
:::posted by Irie on 1/08/2004 09:43:53 PM
Hi, folks.
I haven't visited the forum in a while, so I'm delighted to log on today and discover a lively conversation in progress.
Irie, I especially want to welcome you to the forum and to encourage you that there are even some African American brothers (not to mention lots of sisters) out there in the CoC who support your call to ministry, some even associated with SwCC. You might not know their names yet, but there are more than you realize who would like to see progress on gender justice issues.
So keep on keepin' on, sister. As more folks see your call, they'll have to rethink their theories about whom God does and does not call.
Equip yourself in Pastoral Care and Counseling, and God will surely find a place to use you.
Grace be with you,
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 1/08/2004 06:19:25 PM
Irie, are you familiar with the Central Dallas Church and Central Dallas Ministries, served by minister Larry James (among others)? I hear that worship at CDC is completely gender-inclusive and that the gifts of all people are honored in this multi-racial church. I'd love to know more; perhaps you could take a field trip!
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/08/2004 05:12:34 PM
Katie,
Thanks for your response. I guess I sloppily assumed that everyone in this discussion group understood that all misogynist are not men. But thanks for providing the opportunity to clarify that, and if I asserted any other sexist implications please feel free to let me know. The right words are difficult to find, but of course you know that. For instance, I think the word misogynist, like patriarchy has been blunted by irresponsible overuse. "Patriarchy" has all but lost it's positive intent, it's nurturing power -- and misogyny is almost as useless. I suppose that "domination model" is a better word choice since it isn't rooted to either gender or to "hate" which to modern people is inflammatory. In social psycology the DM includes the ranking of male over female and contrasts with the "partnership model" which finds equivalence in male and female. DM idealizes authority and hierarchy and fear response. PM honors mutual trust, egalitarianism, and education. Both men and women subcribe to each, and regress (or progress) from one to the other in equal numbers. I think the concept is biblical. Against God's best intentions the first human-to-human relationship in the Bible regressed rapidly from a PM to a DM and maintained until Christ represcribed the PM. Both models began with a man and a woman.
Irie -- Your struggle against powers have increased your strength. I will continue to pray that God will guide you in wisdom.
Carmen (the armchair social psycologist/theologian/linguist/Irie cheer-leader)
:::posted by Carmen on 1/08/2004 04:16:00 PM
Thanks Lance and Carmen.
Lance, just yesterday I joined the Women In Ministry Network.
For a while Carmen, I felt like the lone ranger here in the DFW Metroplex. Until the discovery of Gal328 and the Women's Ministry Network, I had no idea there were women in churches of Christ experiencing like struggles.
Your comments reminded me of a personal horror story which involved my being told by my former pastor that, I must attend the monthly "Minister's Meeting" of the African-American COC ministers in Dallas, and discuss my plans for an outreach ministry. Along with attending this meeting, I was also required to meet with the President of Southwestern Christian College for the same reason. Once I received in writing, the approval from the President and the other African-American COC ministers, my home church would support me in the outreach ministry.
So like a good little girl, I met with the ministers and the President; that's right I did it! However, during the meeting it became painfully obvious that my minister (who did not show up for the meeting) had already sabotaged my efforts. The ministers put me on hold in order to discuss my request, privately. To date, I have not received their reply. In fact, it's been almost a year since our meeting. Nevertheless, I did receive both verbal and written support from the President of SWCC.
Needless to say, I did not receive the support of my local church. On the contrary, I was accused of being disrespecful of the leadership, and asked to remove any mention of the name of the church or my membership to it, from any printed materials, and from the ministry's website. The reason given, was so that the COC at large, would not get the wrong impression of the ministry, or think I was attempting to start a church. The leadership was also concerned that the ministry not shed a negative light on the church. Ironically, at the time I was not even interested in Pastoring a church. That was then and this is now!
So, although it troubles me to hear of other horror stories of Godly women who simply desire to use their "gifts to serve others", there is comfort in realizing that God is doing a "new thing" in the COC nationwide; and that God is using women to bring it to pass.
Be Blessed,
Irie
:::posted by Irie on 1/08/2004 12:03:11 PM
Irie: On the subject of other women practicing or preparing for professional ministry in Churches of Christ, check out the Women in Ministry Network, an e-mail discussion group managed by Amy Bost Henegar. Go here to read about it and sign up.
:::posted by Lance on 1/08/2004 11:54:43 AM
I don't believe that all injustice and prejudice can be traced back to misogyny. There are all kinds of ways to hate. The lust for power resides in each one of us, and we all look for ways to establish a higher-than-others place in the hierarchy. I'm not assuming that all misogynists are men, but I'm wary of the sexist implications in Carmen's assertion of misogyny as the origin of all our human relational woes.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/08/2004 08:22:56 AM
Irie,
I think Katie can fill you in on the who's who list of women exercising their gifts outside of the usual COC bounderies. It'll probably take her about a minute.
Of course I'd love to share with you my personal story of oppression under the idolatry of exclusive male spiritual leadership/headship, but I'd be up all night! Also -- and this may be some consolation -- Over the years, I have learned that my story is really not my own. Every woman with whom I have shared can match my experiences almost to the letter. The characters and the lines are the same, but the differences in interpretation are subtle. Like you, my story also has educated leaders who are unable or unequipped to enlighten the usual clutch of resolved-to-remain-ignorant-at-all-cost bullies. To contrast those, there are always the bright, professional spiritual church women who once they know you are no longer subscribing to the system voluntarily, have sophisticated methods to "tell you in love" that you have become a spiritual failure, man-hater, bad wife and mother, and even are less physically attractive in this new frame of mind, "have you considered a make-over or spa treatment?" Then there are the private "men's meetings" or "elders meetings" where you are discussed and strategies to "keep you in your place" are devised and implemented. There are the carefully crafted letters you write to the leaders to try to dispell the rumor that you are trying to make a scene or threaten the unity of the congregation but are only a seeker wanting to have some honest, open and intelligent discussions about the scriptures, that go unanswered. And, occasionally, there is the encouraging word, the promise of change -- usually offered to you at a particularly discouraging time in private by that educated and enlightened church leader who passively watched you get slammed -- It always begins with "One day..." I think you will find that most of us here are just like you, Irie, all one-day'd out. And not to diminish the importance of racial identity, but it is my opinion that all oppression and injustice toward people of color, different religions, children, the mentally and physically handicapped, the elderly, is a transferrence of misogyny. The idolatry of inherent male priviledge grips all of humanity and all of humanity is divided into two groups: those who can trace the damage back to misogyny and those who will not even entertain the idea.
Thanks for listening, Irie. I look forward to hearing you preach someday.
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/08/2004 01:33:00 AM
Carmen,
Since I am new to the "family" so to speak, I'm really interested in hearing some of the experiences of you ladies. For example, I know that Katie is co-pastor at West Islip, are there any other women pastors. Also, are there any African-American women participating in the forum, I'm really interested in their expereinces.
Be Blessed,
Irie
By the way Indie, my daughters name is India and I call her Indie.
:::posted by Irie on 1/07/2004 01:41:25 PM
Carmen,
Since I am new to the "family" so to speak, I'm really interested in hearing some of the experiences of you ladies. For example, I know that Katie is co-pastor at West Islip, are there any other women pastors. Also, are there any African-American women participating in the forum, I'm really interested in their experiences.
Be Blessed,
Irie
By the way Indie, my daughters name is India and I call her Indie.
:::posted by Irie on 1/07/2004 01:41:18 PM
Indie,
I like pockets too. Land's End has dresses with pockets and I own a few. Wow! If I had a slip from the fourth grade it would have grown 37 annual rings by now!
Slipping (or skidding) into the subject of rings ... The New Year rings in Irie! Welcome! I love your giddy anticipation about the future! Your optimism is a welcome refreshment. Stay with us.
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/07/2004 12:21:00 AM
Quote: By the way, what's a slip?
I have one of those. It's the same one I've been using since the fourth grade (seriously). I would just like to know where you get dresses with pockets. I refuse to carry a purse, but I can never find dresses with pockets.
Welcome Irie.
:::posted by Indie on 1/06/2004 07:12:19 PM
Welcome, Irie. We are so glad you've come.
(In one of my favorite kids' books, "On the Day You Were Born," that's what the people of the world whisper into the ear of the newborn baby: "We are so glad you've come.")
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/06/2004 05:37:37 PM
This is my first visit to the forum and I am elated to be here.
I am a 44-year-old African American single mother of a beautiful 10-year-old daughter. I am just about to complete year two at Brite Divinity School at Texas Christian University. I am in hot pursuit of the M.Div. and a PhD. in Pastoral Theology and Counseling. Consequently, discovering this site was an answer to prayer. I am not aware of any African-American COC's in Dallas or anywhere else for that matter (other than the Michigan Ave. COC, mentioned on the site) that provide women opportunity for full participation in every aspect of worship and ministry of the church. African-American COC's in Dallas, Texas in particular, appear to have no interest in Gender Justice.
In fact, last year I was told the following by one of the leaders of my "former" congregation: "the trouble with you women is that you think you're equal with men." What made this statement even worse was that my former pastor (an M.Div. gradutate from Perkins and a D.Min graduate from Union Theological) was sitting in our midst, but failed to correct the leaders obvious biblical illiteracy. As a result this and many more events, this past year has been quite painful and yet, liberating and fulfilling. God has opened many doors for ministry and has proved faithful in providing for the needs of my daughter and I.
With much anticipation I await God's next move in my life.
:::posted by Irie on 1/06/2004 11:25:51 AM
Ok. "Ha ha!"
By the way, what's a slip?
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/05/2004 06:27:00 PM
Katie,
This is my first visit to Gal328 in quite a while. After two ministers with serious weenie issues easily rebounded from sex-scandals and divorce and found leaderships drooling at the chops to give these "dynamic" boys another jab at honing their ministries even with full-disclosure alimony and child-support, I signed in with the intention of posting a rather negative perspective about the rate of progress toward female inclusion in ministry and leadership as churches are freaky desperate to fill empty pulpits. Thanks. I need to know that there are leaderships willing to take off their slippers and try on some sensible traveling shoes.
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 1/05/2004 05:45:00 PM
What? Nobody wanted to blog a "ha ha" for the ripped dress story? [smile]
I was reading Christian Century recently and came across this quote from a 1966 Life magazine interview with John Updike: "Too many people are studying maps and not enough are visiting places," Updike said, referring to literary critics who had never published their own creative writing. That provocatively sums up my own feelings about all those well-intentioned folks out there who keep studying, and studying, and studying what they call "the women's issue" in hopes that the controversy will melt away in time and we will all magically arrive at a more reasonable place together. Visiting places, as opposed to studying maps, involves some risk, doesn't it?
Just ask the Michigan Avenue Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois. A predominantly and historically African-American congregation, their letterhead proclaims "Where Every Christian is a Minister -- 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 1:6." Just before the holidays the West Islip congregation was honored to have two members of the Michigan Ave. church visit for worship. They brought us, as a gift, a worship program dated November 16, 2003, in which the entry for "Sermon" listed "Marian K. Lockhart (first woman preacher for our church)." We were... well, let Isaiah say it.
"Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you!...Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and rejoice!" (Is. 60)
Brother George Webster at the Michigan Avenue congregation and I have corresponded a bit since then, and he says, "Of the more than sixty-five congregations of the Churches of Christ in the Chicago-land area, we are one of about three where women participate... And we are the only congregation, to my knowledge... who has had sermons preached by sisters as part of the public worship..." Then he invited me to come preach if I'm ever in the area! Will wonders never cease? These are brothers and sisters who, upon studying the maps, decided to actually visit some places! Metaphorically and literally! (Their letterhead also lists five "directors" -- their elders -- four of whom are women, and one of whom, Charlene Webster, also visited West Islip.)
So, friends, let's all make plans to visit/write/pray for Michigan Avenue in 2004. Lending them encouragement would be ministry, indeed. Here's their address in case you want to send them a note: 700 East 40th Street, Chicago, Illinois 60653. No website or e-mail.
Now didn't that just make your day?
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/05/2004 03:13:20 PM
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