The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Tim,
It sounds like the brothers in question are not--in the Pauline sense--weak, but are--in the pop-psychology sense--passive-aggressive control freaks. I've heard the argument a bit more indirectly presented, with the person in question claiming to protect other weak brothers and sisters, but not claiming to be the weaker one personally.
There's another type, too. Today the phrase "sniper brothers" occured to me. That would be those whose weapon of choice is the high-powered letter to the elders, aimed with a scope from a distant pew. I've taken a few hits from these over the years. I'm sure some on this forum have taken far more than I.
Both of these are bullies, and bullies must be stood up to. My wife is fond of pointing to the standard spaghetti-western movie story, where the bad guys are terrorizing a town. The townsfolk, fearful of getting hurt if they face the bullies, call in the hero(es). The hero rides in, and ultimately defeat the bullies by convincing the townsfolk to stand up to them. It is only by so doing that they can have any long-term success. As she points out, the lesson applies, whether it is in Afghanistan or our congregations.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/29/2003 08:55:15 PM
"So the church becomes a collection of "weaker brothers" and those who are too "nice" to be stronger..."
And it is.
:::posted by Vicki on 11/29/2003 12:49:50 PM
I had a friend at Harding who used to enjoy asserting "Jesus wasn't nice." It took me awhile to get what he meant by that, but now I see pretty clearly that a lot of what we value as good behavior is really just "nice" behavior. The idea that we must at all costs avoid confrontation lest it lead to offense is an example of the "niceness" thing that gets drilled into us. But--as my friend saw very clearly--Jesus doesn't appear to have had this hang-up. He confronted people on a regular basis. And he offended people pretty regularly, too. All of this is to say that I feel we've interpreted the "weaker brother" stuff in terms what is and isn't nice, rather than what is and isn't good (for that person, for the church). Because confrontation isn't nice, we assume it is never good.
I'm not as combative a person as you might assume from these comments. The niceness stuff has taken root pretty deeply in my psyche. I have trouble with disagreeing with almost everyone except my husband.
Brent sees a parallel between the impulse of "silent where the Bible is silent" and the idea that the weaker brother trumps the stronger, a sort of "best be safe" theology. If something is at all suspect--to anyone--then it's just best left alone, and it's the "weaker brother's" duty to announce and enforce that. So the church becomes a collection of "weaker brothers" and those who are too "nice" to be stronger...
Jen
Happy Thanksgiving!
:::posted by Jennifer on 11/27/2003 10:13:43 AM
Happy Holidays to All:
I just returned from the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature, where scholars of all stripes come together and (among other things) share their latest research. For the past twenty or so years, individuals primarily from the Churches of Christ have met on Sunday mornings to worship together. It was started by a professor from Harding, and it now involves about a 100 people each year. It is informal, with songs started by persons from their seats, Scripture readings, prayers, and communion with a meditation. I noticed Vic M. from this group there, along with others.
For the past three years, a few women have also contributed readings and prayers. I discovered, however, that after the gathering, certain individuals approach these women, identify themselves as "weaker brothers," and then verbalize how the participation of the women is "offensive" to them. I won't go into all my reactions to this, but it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be good to discuss the "weaker brother" argument together. The strategy, of course, is to say that something is "offensive," and therefore should not be done out of deference to the "weaker brother." I can see some justification for such an attitude from Rom. 14:19-21, but at the same time it seems this could have been used by Jewish Christians in the early church to stifle all sorts of "innovations" introduced by Paul. Rather, the main issue for Paul seems to be the attitude of the "stronger" Christian toward the weaker, as he repeatedly admonishes them not to pass judgment (see verses 1, 10, 13).
Anyway, I suspect that several of you have encountered or will encounter the "weaker brother" argument as more and more congregations move toward fuller inclusion of women in our churches. What advice would you give on how to respond? Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Tim
:::posted by Tim on 11/26/2003 12:46:59 PM
I thank God for gifted sisters like Julie. I thank God for this forum, and for Katie and Lance. And I thank God that Churches of Christ are starting to move on recognizing the gifting of our sisters, even if frustratingly slowly sometimes.
Happy Thanksgiving.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/26/2003 07:39:35 AM
I thank God for gifted sisters like Julie. I thank God for this forum, and for Katie and Lance. And I thank God that Churches of Christ are starting to move on recognizing the gifting of our sisters, even if frustratingly slowly sometimes.
Happy Thanksgiving.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/26/2003 07:39:18 AM
Did the link to my article kill the conversation....sorry.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/26/2003 12:03:19 AM
Here's the link to Julie's article. Enjoy!:
http://www.wineskins.org/content.asp?CID=48184
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 11/14/2003 11:51:00 PM
Sara, thanks for the good news. I am excited about the progress that Rochester College has made...it seems there is major movement in most of the Christian colleges theologically and their rules about dress, hair, etc. That is good for our family since our son goes to Lipscomb and he has the biggest afro you have ever seen...it used to be died blonde and then he dreadlocked it and then cut it all off and now it is just a huge brown afro. Yes, he is white but all my children except one can grow a natural afro. Lucky for them it is "in" now.
You can find my article under fresh voices on the wineskins site. Like I said before, it has been there for about a year.
Sara, we will pray for your ministry with the students at Rochester...I don't know if I told you that my new friends are your old friends...Mark and Marnie Moore. We spent a week at camp together last summer and connected immediately. I love them!
Thank you for always encouraging.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/12/2003 10:47:00 PM
Julie,
I went to the Wineskins website to read the article you mentioned, but I couldn't find it. How do you get there?
I have some encouraging news. Two of the elders at our church asked me to co-teach a class with them. I am thankful for the message it sends to our congregation. We are coming along.
Also, things are going well at Rochester College. Women are included in our chapel program on a regular basis. There are a few restrictions, but overall, we are "gender-inclusive" in almost every area of our program.
Hope a little good news helps you sleep tonight.
Blessings,
Sara
:::posted by sara on 11/12/2003 08:00:12 PM
Thank you Tom. You don't know how much those words were needed at this moment. I am still up and unable to sleep...it is 2:30 in the morning and I have to be at work at 7:30. Just feeling weighed down and too many things going through my mind. Your words lifted some of that weight off.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/12/2003 02:28:02 AM
Julie,
Calling you the Pharisee is the height of irony! It's sadly funny. The Pharisees, as you well know, were those who resisted even the consideration of change from the status quo.
Know that, while those who ought to know better are hateful, you are loved and appreciated by a large family of God's children. Thank you for being willing to speak up. May God continue to use the gifts he has given you for his purposes.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/11/2003 06:54:45 PM
Hi, it is good to know that there is still life out there. So good to see Tom at Powerhouse. Isn't it wonderful when we actually get the chance to meet each other face to face? Those have been some warm moments for me. I have been conversing with some who disagree with us lately. I have an article on the Wineskins website and every now and then a new group of mainliners get ahold of it and they all feel compelled to email me and try to set me straight. I have been equated with Satan in the garden and Saul when he was persecuting the church...all just during the past two weeks. The article has been there for a year and still I am receiving email about it. It is interesting that many of them call me the Pharisee.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/10/2003 06:08:25 PM
Hi, Tom,
Sorry you got an echo, I've been peeking in, but not posting. All the post-modernism stuff is out of my league.
Our class Sunday a.m. was on Eph 5, and it really surprised me how many people, even the older folks, agreed about submission and about making music in your heart being used incorrectly in the CofC. I was in the auditorium class, where most of the older folks go, and really expected and least a little bit of arguement, but there wasn't ANY! I've been dealing with some ultra-conservatives online and I really needed a little bit of reassurance that we were not back-sliding into that kind of thinking.
ALSO - I got to meet Patty Lacross on Sunday! She made a very short visit to INDY and we had lunch together on Sunday. It was great to be able to attach a face to the name of a sister!
Blessing to you all,
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 11/10/2003 04:13:57 PM
Hello? (echo, echo, echo). Anybody here? Did I miss the rapture? :-O I guess if I did, so did Julie and Tim Danley, since I saw them Friday evening... ;-) As well as 700 teens...
Our small group discussion last night was Ephesians 5. Lots of fodder of CoC discussions! What is it about submission that gets us all wrapped around an axle? And why do so many translations put a break between verse 21 (mutual submission of all disciples to each other) and verse 22 (wives)?
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/10/2003 02:00:26 PM
For anyone who is interested,
I have now published on my web site page http://www.clarksons.org/spirit_leads.htm the entire lectureship series presented by Ken Shrable, Ph.D at the 1996 Pepperdine Lectureship. The title of the series is:
Roles of Men and Women in Contemporary Culture and Church
Proposed models of Change Compatible for Scripture, Pepperdine Lectureship 1996
This also includes supporting papers titled "Biblical Authority in the Church" and "Postmodernism and the Restoration Movement". As far as I know, this is the only location on the Web that these papers are available.
Over the last few years, Ken has become a friend through the electronic medium of the WEB. We have discussed our views with each other and others on discussion lists associated with the Churches of Christ and the Restoration Movement. Ken is presently active on the Berean Spirit Discussion list and occassionally on the RM-Bible List. These articles are in pdf format.
Also, following the Lectureship series, I have posted three articles by Ken that are a compilation of his posts during discussions that he has carried on. They are posted as standard html web pages.
:::posted by Wiley on 11/01/2003 11:43:09 PM
Jen,
I guess I have always preferred female professors over male professors since most of the classes I took in college were taught by females. Don't know why, but I did. Maybe it has something to do with my early school years when I had almost no male teachers until junior high, and only a few male teachers through high school (none of whom I personally had much respect for). Just a guess! For what it is worth, I have always been more relaxed and able to concentrate better in courses that were presented by females and, since grades in college were the important thing, I guess that was probably the major factor.
On a slightly different note, we found out today that my oldest daughter has finally been recognized officially by the IRS as being a minister after two years of back and forth talking with them. So, if any females out there who are in Childrens Ministry in the CoC run into problems being recognized as ministers for the tax treatment issue, it can be accomplished.
:::posted by Wiley on 11/01/2003 11:16:47 PM
Fascinating! I'm glad this is happening.
On the absence of female mentors: all of my favorite professors have been men. I don't think I even had an English class with a woman professor (although there are several women in the English Dept at Harding). I think, for me, that my female role models have come from other contexts--my grandmother, my mom, Katie (who I think is now the superhero for several ACU Grad School of Theology girls, don't blush or anything, just being honest here, it's what the forum is for, right?). Another woman, Debra Lanham, from my high school church who was a successful ESL educator and very involved in ministering to newly arrived foreign families. So I guess I've never felt a lack of female mentors generally, although there is a notable lack of women mentors in my formal education.
My husband has commented more than once on how refreshing it is that he has more women professors than men at Drew in the Liturgical Studies program.
I've no conclusions on these observations, just rambling generally.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 11/01/2003 10:26:22 AM
archives
