The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Thanks everyone for your comments. You have been helpful and encouraging. I think I really needed someone to talk to about this dilemma. I'll let you know what happens and how it is worked out. Lance, I'll be thinking about your challenge; maybe I'm being too protective of my kids. I haven't shared any of this with them yet. But, you are right that if my son is old enough to make this decision, he's old enough to deal with some of the hard things that go along with it.
Blessings,
Sara
:::posted by sara on 9/30/2003 04:11:47 PM
Sara,
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but have you considered telling him the truth? Tell him that the church does not practice justice in its treatment of women. Tell him that it is not God’s will, but rather the will of these people that you not be involved in his baptism simply because you are a woman. And then tell him why you have decided to make this your church community anyway. If he is old enough to be baptized, he is old enough to start dealing with the truth about the church. I would even say he has the right to know what he is getting into.
Peace,
Lance
:::posted by Lance on 9/30/2003 09:40:13 AM
Sara, your post brought me to a deep place emotionally. I know it may be hard but I think that you should honor your son's wishes. You have been a part of his spiritual guidance since before he was born and will continue to help him navigate the rest of his journey. He knows his Savior and feels his presence through you and his dad and he wants you to be a part of this immersion. It does make me angry when this comes up when it should be a time of rejoicing....our children are choosing to follow the steps of Jesus. Maybe if you stand in the water and read scripture and your husband does the actual immersion....maybe noone will be upset. Sara, just from our brief encounters with each other, I know that you have very sweet spirit about you and anyone who knows you will know that you are only doing what you feel is the right thing to do. I have four children and they are growing up way too fast....21, soon 19, 15 and 10. Never make the choice to make someone else happy when your children are only asking for what is right. I know that sounds pushy....but it is experience speaking.
May God make this a smooth and wonderful happening for your son and your whole family. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/28/2003 06:22:30 PM
Vicki is having a hard time posting. She writes:
Hi Sara.
I just want to share my own experience, the choices I made, and my feelings about the baptism of my child. My daughter, now 12, was baptized when she was 6 1/2. Yes, young. But she was so sure, we knew it would be wrong to stand between her, her Savior, and her God. My husband offered it to me. "Do you want to do this?" Just handed it to me on a silver platter. (That's how it felt.) I was so afraid some unthinking or cruel person would tell my beautiful angel that it didn't "take", and she, not understanding, would be crushed. I chose not to take that risk. Now, in hindsight, I am filled with regret. If I could turn back the hands of time, this is the one thing I would do differently.
May you be as active in his rebirth as you were in his birth.
-Vicki Cox
:::posted by jch on 9/28/2003 08:54:42 AM
Hi everyone, I am a new member of Forum even though I have been reading postings for about a year. I am hoping someone out there can help me with a very frustrating situation.
My husband and I recently moved from St. Louis to western KY. We are about halfway between Nashville and Paducah, KY. We have visited four or so CofC's and have been very discouraged that gender issues are not addressed at all, except to use the pat verses to keep the fairer sex in their place.
The church we were members of in St. Louis was a spirit filled group, open to studying the scriptures and re-evaluating their attitudes and practices. This church grew about 20% in the 1 1/2 we were there. They were gender inclusive, if not gender just. This was my first experience in a church like that, having grown up in the CofC in Atlanta and graduating from DLU.
I did not expect to find a gender just or inclusive congregation in western KY. I also did not expect to have the difficultly I am having worshipping in the repressive atmosphere here. I have done it before; but for some reason it is harder now. We expect to be in this part of the country for a long, long time.
Any advice, support, insight, would be appreciated.
Carolyn
:::posted by Carolyn on 9/27/2003 07:12:03 PM
Sara,
I will keep you and your family in my prayers for this to work out. Here is a suggestion that may help. I have seen it done one time and I don't know of anyone who really objected (but I was just a visitor!). A father and mother were going to participate in a child's baptism. It was a rural church and very "conservative." The compromise they apparently reached was that after the child had responded to the invitation, while the parents and child were preparing for the baptism in the changing rooms, the elders closed the morning service, told everyone what was about to happen, and said if anyone was interested in staying for the baptism, they were welcome to stay and participate. I don't remember anyone leaving! The key was apparently that the "official worship" had concluded so they could "allow" the mother to be an active part after that. Kind of silly reasoning to me but it satisfied their legalsitic views and both parents had a active part of this special event while standing in the pool with their child! That was, I guess, about 10 years ago.
I do hope you are able to participate fully! The immersion of a child by a parent is about as special an event as I can think of (having baptized two of my three daughters!).
:::posted by Wiley on 9/27/2003 03:49:24 PM
I often hear about how women are involved in churches with praise team, serving communion, reading scripture, drama, etc. Those seem to be "safe" ways to start the process (at least for those who are ready to start the process). What about baptism? At what point are different churches allowing women to participate in baptizing their own children or friends they have participated in leading to Christ? What's happening at your churches? What are the reactions? Are there different "rules" during worship or outside of worship?
This question originates because my son wants my husband and me to participate in his baptism, but our church doesn't allow women to participate in that way during services. My son doesn't know any of this. He just knows how he envisions his special day - being baptized on a Sunday morning with mom and dad a part of it. I don't know how to explain it to him. I feel the bitterness welling up inside over this - and I don't want that to happen. Regardless of how quickly or slowly we move on these things, I want to remain pure in heart. So, please pray for me, and send me your wisdom!
:::posted by sara on 9/27/2003 10:50:57 AM
Dear Tim, you and your church family are in our prayers. Grief can be so immense and so overwhelming but often takes us someplace we never thought we could go. I pray that the Spirit guide all thoughts and actions surrounding this tragedy. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/26/2003 12:56:12 PM
Hi All:
It's been a hard week for our church. Four of our teens and one adult were involved in a head-on with a drunk driver late Friday night. One of our teens was seriously injured (losing a foot and his spleen, among other injuries) and another was killed (she was a 15-year-old, a cheerleader at her high school). This has shaken the church quite a bit, and we will be dealing with lots of emotions surrounding this for some time.
I wanted to share with this group, though, what I consider an important aspect of the events surrounding this tragedy. When we met for worship on Sunday morning, we set aside a section of time for prayers for the families directly affected by the accident. One of our elders started the time, then left the floor open for any who wanted to pray. Over the next half hour, about twenty members -- both men and women -- either stood at their seats or went to a microphone to pour out their hearts to God. It stirred up many thoughts and emotions in me, as you can imagine. I found it to be one of the most powerful moments in our congregation's history. But as I sat there listening to the words of anguish and grief and hope expressed by my Christian brothers AND sisters, I couldn't help but hope that everyone else recognized the importance of hearing the women's voices in this time of worship. I hope that this will turn out to be a moment when we not only came together to grieve, but also a moment when another boulder was removed from the dam holding back the waters of justice.
Tim
:::posted by Tim on 9/26/2003 12:44:24 PM
Chad, you made me smile. I used to have the following as my .sig:
Cynical definition of a cynic: a naive persons term for a realist.
Here's to a continual drip into the glass,
--Jason
*exits humming: come fill my cup and let it overflow...*
:::posted by Jason on 9/23/2003 04:11:30 PM
Joe, I find it ironic that so many folks who would normally cry foul against the encroachments of "relativism" into the church will conveniently lapse into a narrow perspectivism when faced with practices or ideas which threaten their status quo. It's fine, they think, when someone else is practicing justice in a different "cultural" context, but heaven forbid we practice this in our own context in a similar way. Sounds like a lot of NIMBY going on. Inconsistencies abound in our thinking, and gender is one of those issues that reveals them pretty quickly.
Tim, your comment about being optimistic gave me a little pause. I tend to be of the mind that most optimists are terribly naive when it comes to human nature. I prefer to be a hopeful pessimist, i.e. being completely clear-eyed about the promises and perils of human life, yet fully confident in the character of the God we serve and worship. The old question, "Is the glass half-full or half-empty?" seems to me a badly-put question. Perhaps we ought to ask, "Can we drink what's in the glass?"
:::posted by Chad on 9/23/2003 10:23:05 AM
Joe,
I would like to talk to you further about your work in NYC but I don't think here is the right place. Please e-mail me patty@lacoss-arnold.com
I'm just plugging along getting excited and frustrated at the same time. This class that my husband will be teaching is on the schedule but apparently the elder who is pushing for it is nervous about sharing it's true nature. He has told the other elders that it is a hermeneutics class and one of the other elders was questioning my husband on how that could possibly attract people to it. Being equally bold Jason replied that it will be applied to interesting issues or something like that.
Sometimes I just want to quit it all, relationships are just too hard.
I hope that everyone has a great time at the Zoe conference. I am so jealous! I really wish I could be there.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/23/2003 12:33:07 AM
Joe,
thanks for the address to your journal. I just finished reading it. I'll be checking it on a regular basis! That journal could be extremly valuable in the future for those of us who have actually allowed ourselves to entertain thoughts of a gender inclusive church in our own areas.
BTW, I had every intention of coming by to meet you while you were in Ft. Worth but you know how good intentions are--especially when there is a precious granddaughter who has Moma call for her and say "come see me, Grandpa"! Guess we will have to meet either in NY (if Linda and I ever get up there--awfully big town a long ways from home for a country boy!) or at ACU Lectureship when they ask Katie to be one of the featured speakers!
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/20/2003 03:39:44 PM
Sara,
As I prepare for this Manhattan church plant, I am only aware of one other church plant that is gender inclusive. It is a church here in the Metropolitan New York City area. Other than this team, I know of no other gender just church plants and trust me, I'm searching for them!
Interestingly enough, the team is supported by southern Churches of Christ. When the team is asked from their supporters about the worship services, they throw the culture card at the supporting churches and the supporting churches nod in agreement. (I don't quite get that.) However, the team is fully aware that when the church grows enough to have elders and deacons that the southern supporters will soon disappear. They are hoping the church will be self-supporting when that time comes.
I'm fortunate to be supported by the Manhattan Church of Christ who desire for me to start this church as a gender just church. AMEN! As to how the secular visitors react, we'll see! But I can't imagine that those living in the financial district where women and men work side by side Monday-Friday are going to throw a fit when they see the same on Sunday morning. The other inclusive church plant, whose church is right in the middle of a blue collar neighborhood, has not faced any hardships from the un-churched on this issue. If they don't know it's an issue then it won't ever be an issue, right? ... or maybe I've got much too learn!
Two days of the week, I travel downtown and spend time walking, praying and learning. I also journal my experiences which you can read at http://downtownchurchplant.blogspot.com
-- Joe
:::posted by jch on 9/20/2003 09:52:24 AM
Hi everyone. I'm interested in some more information about the church plants that have been mentioned. Where are gender-just church plants being started besides the one mentioned in Manhattan? What has been the reaction from other CofC congregations in those areas? How have secular visitors reacted when visiting? I'm curious and excited about the possibilities.
-Sara
:::posted by sara on 9/19/2003 08:30:56 PM
Sometimes I think I am becoming a multiple personality. Monday through Saturday, I am who God says I am. But come Sunday, I am who others say I am. Does that makes me a fraud, a hypocrite?
For several months my family has been worshiping with a rural, east Texas (meaning very southern) black church. Absolutely wonderful, God-loving people. But nowhere near gender inclusion, much less justice. Many of the men actually sit up front and to the side. The cultures collide when we walk in their doors. I am the only one who hears the rumble. The thing that really throws me is that it doesn't even really matter to me. A step back in time. No praise team, plastic pulpit or power point. AUTHORIZED King James Version. (A guest preacher said it that way. I almost laughed out loud.) Lots of traditional spiritual songs. Beautiful singing. And loving!!! I mean I haven't seen this much love for each other EVER! And I love being with them. I never discuss my beliefs. They have never asked. They live in a different culture, one that makes them work hard at making and keeping families solid and whole. Their families are learning to walk together. I have to respect their priority. The rest will come 20 years down the road. Floyd Rose said the black churches would be the last to find gender justice. I see now why he said that.
So, I sit silently, knowing that it is my choice to be silent. If I wanted to make noise, I could go someplace else.
Signed,
Confused
:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2003 07:48:46 PM
Katie:
I really appreciate and agree with your comments on letting justice roll rather than drip. I clicked the "Post" button for my own comments with my head cocked to one side and one eye shut, wondering if it sounded condescending or patronizing. I have fought against frustration on this front probably more than any other front, even though I am not one of the ones wronged here (at least not directly). I want to thank whoever it was that gave the update on PRCC. That is discouraging, but I'm still hopeful that more might come. What I was trying to do in my last post was encourage the positive attitude. I often find myself too easily falling into negativity and a judgmental stance, which I don't have when I am truly in a place of faith. When I am truly in a place of faith, I find myself being more and more optimistic. So I feel it is part of my responsibility as a Christian to promote optimism, because God is a giver of life and light.
I am saddened to think the planting of new churches is the only way to bring about gender justice, but it very well could be. It reminds me of Jesus' instructions to his disciples, to go into a city and speak, and if the people there won't listen, to shake off the dust and move on. I used to think the shaking of the feet was a gesture of disgust and scorn. But I don't think so now. It is just as reasonable to assume that the people in such a town were just not ready for the message. It could be that is what has to be done here: shake off the dust of a traditional church and move on to a new one. But if we do that, it cannot be with a spirit of judgmentalism. Otherwise, we are no different than the women from Indiana who denied the legitimacy of the worship in Manhattan, or the people who want the name "Church of Christ" taken off the building in Brookline.
With my head cocked to one side and one eye closed,
Tim
:::posted by Tim on 9/19/2003 03:48:05 PM
We’ve added a new resource on the links page: Women in Ministry. Produced by and for the Assemblies of God, it includes material that will be of interest to our readers. I would also like to draw attention to their upcoming conference for women in ministry: “Called, Connected, Contemporary.” (Thanks to reader and contributor Don Haymes for bringing this site to my attention.)
:::posted by Lance on 9/17/2003 05:15:50 PM
Sorry, Joe. Didn't mean to leave you in a state of confusion, but I often have that effect on people! : ) Our experience has been that, in a church planting, unless you are a single, childless adult and just have oo-goo gobs of time to give and thrive on burn-out, it takes a few good friends to work alongside you. I came up with 12 because that was the number Jesus initially chose to work closely with Him, and it seemed to pretty work well for him, right? So, next time we church-plant, we'll do things a little differently.
May your new planting be a good place to teach your daughter by example.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/17/2003 03:49:30 PM
okay, okay, I suppose I really asked for that, didn't I? Actually Brent and I concur wholeheartedly with Chad's diagnosis that forming new communities is the most promising way of introducing gender-just worship into our tradition. We've talked about what might happen eventually when we finish up our degrees and land somewhere more or less permanently. I guess it never occurred to us that we might do something like that now! Isn't it funny how mental blind spots get so entrenched? Thank God for other people!
Actually we'll be making the trip to Manhattan this coming Sunday, with another couple whom we just met last night at the PTS convocation. So, be looking for us! We're very excited. Hopefully we won't get lost on our first foray into the city...
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 9/17/2003 11:58:01 AM
Don't quite follow you, Vicki....
:::posted by jch on 9/17/2003 11:25:51 AM
Hey, Joe,
i think Jesus started with 12 for a reason! just a little something for you to think about...
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/16/2003 05:21:56 PM
Jennifer, I could give you a nice, Christian sounding answer like, "but God called us to Manhattan," or "the Spirit led us to this place," and while those are true answers to your question, "why Manhattan and not Princeton?" another very true answer is, "I'm being paid to plant a church in Manhattan, not Princeton." So, when this thing kicks off, hop on the NJT to Penn, catch the 1/9 subway and be a part of our downtown church family! Or as Chad so slyly suggests, maybe you are in Princeton for more than an MDiv ..... :)
Joe
:::posted by jch on 9/16/2003 11:11:52 AM
Well, Jennifer...maybe that's why you're in Princeton! :)
:::posted by Chad on 9/16/2003 10:49:54 AM
So, um, Joe, why aren't you moving to Princeton for your church planting???
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 9/16/2003 07:56:30 AM
Joe,
That's great news about your transition to Manhattan and the new community y'all will be starting. Will a group from Manhattan be coming up to Burlington for Conversations again?
Joe's story reminded me that even those of us at churches trying to practice gender-justice still have to put up with some strange things on occasion. Lest anyone think that places like Brookline are all smooth sailing here, you should read some of the emails we get from time to time (no doubt some of you get these things too!). Not too long ago a guy wrote us insisting that we stop calling ourselves a Church of Christ because of the job ad posted on our website. He said that our position on women nauseated him. I responded with the following (and feel free to borrow this if you find it helpful): "Regardless of what others may say about us, we at Brookline study the Bible with diligence, care for each other as children of God, and will continue to proudly identify ourselves as a "Church of Christ." We are committed to constantly searching the scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and changing where change is required of us by the Gospel. We believe that new life for all is the consequence of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and as God's ambassadors we strive to make that life visible in our world. If, as a Christian, you still find that nauseating, then unfortunately I can offer you no good news."
A phrase comes to mind about being careful not to give what is holy to the dogs...
Keep the faith,
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 9/15/2003 03:04:11 PM
Chad,
I agree with you that church plants or births are the best places for gender justice to be practiced. That is why I am on board here at the Manhattan church. In 18-24 months, I will plant a church in the downtown area of Manhattan that is gender-just. I left my ministry position in Ft. Worth because I could not see that church ever moving in that direction and if it did, I knew I would not be satisfied with small steps. I'm not trained in planting churches nor have I any background in newly planted churches but because I believe the gospel message to entail good news to all, not just men, we have come here hoping to create a community that is without barriers.
On another note, I got to preach here at the Manhattan Church of Christ this past Sunday. We were dealing with a skeleton crew as most of the church was out at the congregational retreat. I was meeting and greeting folks when four women from Indiana (tourists) made their way in the door. They came directly to me and asked if we were "the church." I knew what they were going for but asked for clarification. They asked if we had a choir or musical instruments. I said "no" which then made the impression that our church truly was "the church." However, it was a different matter when they picked up the order of worship to find that women were participating in the day's service. Leah lead worship, Beth read scripture, and Gabrielle lead us through communion. The four women from Indiana quickly became incensed and put me through the fire. I finally said, "ma'am, I don't have time for this conversation, I'm sorry." They walked away angry waving their order of worships at me saying, "I'm so sorry for y'all." In fact, I'm so sorry for them.
Joe
:::posted by jch on 9/15/2003 02:42:58 PM
Here's another "amen" to Katie. Yes, we do celebrate progress as it occurs, but the pursuit of justice is not about "negotiated settlements" or "best compromises."
This morning at Immanuel UCC in Streamwood, Illinois, we celebrated the first worship service with our new "preacher-lady," Kimberly Wood. Not only is she new to us, but this is also her first role as a senior minister, having served a few years as an associate in another congregation. Her prayers were heartfelt, and her sermon Spirit-filled. We learned that she has a background in social work, which will certainly be an asset to her pastoral role.
Our Scripture reader this morning was a teenage girl who handled the passages from Proverbs and Mark quite well with the exception of a couple foreign names--kind of like how I stumbled. As she read, it dawned on me that young Marissa now can look to Kim as a role model. I contrast this to my own CoC experience where, right after my baptism, I was pulled out of my Sunday school class because the teacher was a woman--and even though she could read scripture in the basement, she could not do so in the auditorium.
Think about the Marissas each of you have in your own churches. Youth is short, and what our young girls experience can have lasting impact on their spiritual directions. When we see the glass as half-full, we ought to be just as parched as when it is bone-dry.
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 9/14/2003 05:45:29 PM
I just moved to Nashville last month so I've been thinking about going to the worship part of the conference. But my baby's bedtime is 6:30 (her decision not mine :) ) and she is exclusively breastfed so I would have to miss out on the evening stuff. And the $50 seems like a lot of money right now. So probably not. But I would like to meet you all.
:::posted by Indie on 9/12/2003 08:48:13 PM
Katie...preach on sister!!!! There have been so many moments when someone has patted me on the head and told me to be patient...told me that these small steps had to happen in order for the big steps to take place. I had so much trouble controlling my anger. I was thirsty and they were holding the wine just out of my reach and telling me that soon I could have a drink. I was hungry and they were preparing the food and I could smell it but I wasn't allowed to eat it. I also had to be a "nice girl" and be kind to everyone. They weren't being kind to me...in fact, they were talking behind my back...and yet I had to maintain my composure. I had to have many conversations about women's role in the church and talk sweetly...even though they were barking in my face and accusing me of wanting titles and power. God is good through it all. He placed people in my path at just the right moments to bolster me and push me along. This forum was one of the tools God used in that process for me. I was hungry and thirsty for 15 years before I was finally able to eat and drink. It is difficult now to eat and drink of the freedom without tears of relief flowing.
Katie, thank you for putting that so beautifully. God speaks through you...keep letting him. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/12/2003 11:43:41 AM
Thanks, Katie. I feel the same as you. Stinkin' baby steps. They ARE baby steps. But they (we) aren't babies! Is it because they (we) don't REALLY believe we (women) are equally human, equally redeemed, equally free?
I read Rose's book one afternoon while sitting next to a bed in an emergency room. I kept wanting to wake my friend and read it to her! Like she cared about gender justice at the moment. (Or ever!) It isn't a book full of scriptural validation, but a powerful little book, nonetheless. I highlighted all over the place, something I rarely do to a book. He just made so much plain sense. Quotable stuff that people can wrap their teeth around.
Julie,
We are heading to a small (baby-stepping) church in south-central Missouri. It will be good to have a church family to connect with again, to be serving and working again, and to have a regular paycheck again! It will be a year Nov. 13th since we became "homeless" and w/o that income. But God is just so incredibly amazing, keeping us in the black at the end of every month on the "important" items - food, rent, car, utilities. We're like horses at the starting gate - restless and ready for someone to open the gate and set us loose to run the race.
Equally human, equally redeemed, equally free, (read that someplace and it stuck)
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/12/2003 10:05:15 AM
Katie,
Amen.
Tim,
Preston Road has been having women read and serve communion (always with men though) since 1999, and they've had a mixed praise team since the early 90s. But the official stance of the elders is that that is as far as they will go. There are those among their members that would like to go further, but they had some considerable fall-out when they took those "baby" steps.
My guess is that what needs to happen is that new communities need to form - not "splits" off old bodies but new gatherings committed to our people and our heritage but also committed to being the kind of disciples we are called to be. New wineskins for new wine, you might say - communities that exist to play a kind of counter-melody to the dissonance we all continue to hear from our historic churches.
:::posted by Chad on 9/12/2003 09:20:20 AM
Oh, yes, by all means --
"Let justice trickle down like a half-dry West Texas creek in mid-July! And righteousness like a fickle mirage!" Isn't that in Amos somewhere?
I know, friends, that the positive-spin celebration of tiny steps is a pastoral impulse, meant to reassure each other that things are happening. But it's like encouraging an African-American, during the height of Jim Crow, by saying, "I went to a church recently where a black man was allowed to read scripture, so long as he sat down on the pew and read in a pair with a white man." Ugh. [Many thanks to Floyd Rose for his eloquent essay, posted on this site, using this rhetorical tool to its best effect.]
So what are we to do? I, like each of you, appreciate the dilemma of those in big-name and small-time churches alike who make the baby steps we have all seen. I can understand the point of view that we need each of these incremental steps to make true justice seem less extreme. But let us remain prophetic in our call for justice, the real thing, the whole enchilada! Let it roll down like mighty waters! Righteousness like an everflowing stream! Then the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and the hills overflow with it! [Thanks, Amos.]
We're thirsty for a flood of justice, friends, aren't we? Parched. Darn near dehydrated. The trickle is not enough.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/12/2003 08:09:53 AM
Hello All.
I'm finally able to get back in and read some of the recent entries. I like the positive feedback regarding the post about Granbury. It must be extremely frustrating to see how slowly these things change, but I agree that maybe the fact they even had to mention something shows that there is talk (concern?) about making changes. I had the opportunity to visit with the Preston Road church (in Dallas) this past weekend. They use a praise team, which sits at the front and uses mikes. At one point, they had a husband-wife team read the Scripture for the morning. Both were also sitting down at the front. I saw it as one small step, but a step in the right direction.
Chris--
I have nothing new to report on the hermeneutics discussion. I do have one young lady in the class who has decided to do her semester paper on Gal 3:26-29. I'm not letting her know how excited I am about it. She will give an oral presentation of her findings to the class at the end of the term. I'll let you know about reactions.
Peace and Joy,
Tim
:::posted by Tim on 9/12/2003 12:59:47 AM
Vicki, Where are you moving? I must've missed that conversation recently. What do you need us to pray for in this move? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/12/2003 12:37:50 AM
Now I'm jealous. We'll be packing to move out of Texas on the 9th. If I could engage the technology of "beaming"...
Be sure to tell all when you get back. I'll be checking in.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/11/2003 06:28:02 PM
I plan to be there for the Worship Conference part, Friday through Sunday.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/11/2003 04:33:03 PM
Yes, I will be at Zoe, along with Ann and Sue. It will be so wonderful to meet all of you.
grace, Julie
We will all be at the leadership portion also.
:::posted by julie on 9/11/2003 04:27:41 PM
My wife, Laura, and I will be there for the entire conference.
Joe
NYC
:::posted by jch on 9/11/2003 04:19:38 PM
Hey everyone - quick question: Who all on here will be at Zoe? Maybe Julie asked this recently, too. Are those who are going going for the leadership part or just the regular conference? Just curious...
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 9/11/2003 02:59:11 PM
Jennifer, my wife and I lived in Princeton for three years. (I did my MDiv there.)
No, there are no NJ area churches of Christ that are gender-just. Sorry. We did, however, go to West Islip almost every weekend. It kinda helped that my sister and bro-in-law were the ministers there and they let us bunk in their house every weekend!
The weekends we weren't out at West Islip, we took the chance to go to other denominations we had not ever explored. We left Princeton feeling like we at least had a taste in our mouths for how other churches functioned, worshipped, and experienced God on Sunday mornings. It was a great three years but we had no real church home other than the West Islip gang that we are happy to be near once again! (I'm now a minister at the Manhattan Church of Christ.)
If you are ever up in NYC, look us up. We will actually come to PTS at the end of Sept. to see friends who are still in seminary there. Maybe we will cross paths.
:::posted by jch on 9/11/2003 02:08:37 PM
Recently Brent and I have been visiting different churches around our area. We really want to find a gender-just CofC--but we're pretty sure that we can't afford to travel out to Manhattan every Sunday, or West Islip (sorry! We will show up sometime!). Does anyone know of a church in the NJ area?
:::posted by Jennifer on 9/11/2003 09:48:00 AM
Indie,
Thanks. That is indeed a very positive way to look at that statement! :>)
:::posted by Wiley on 9/10/2003 08:37:13 AM
Well Wiley, to look at the bright side, the fact that they had to say anything means something is happening. I went to a similar service at Downtown CofC when I was in Searcy, AR and never in the five years I attended did they indicate that women could not start a song. In those five years it only happened once. After several minutes with no body starting a song three young women started a song together. So I guess your church used to be able to assume that the women would keep themselves in their place, but that's not the case anymore.
:::posted by Indie on 9/09/2003 01:28:16 AM
From what my wife has told me (and I have only talked to her about twenty minutes total to day--we work opposit shifts all the time!!) it really ended up being mostly singing. I think our youth minister probably meant praying silently (for women at least) however, it apparently didn't come out that way-at least to my wife- although I haven't heard if any were vocal. It would be great if one was but I would be really surprised if it happened! But as I said, the only thing that was actually specifically requested was that women not lead (start) any of the songs which, to me as a long time song leader, is about as reiculous as anything that they could say because at the little conservative church we were members of for more than 20 years, I relied on several excellent female singers to get me started right or back on track many times. I learned alot of songs standing up front and allowing those women to "lead/teach" me and the rest of us. Not much difference between "leading" from the front and "leading" from the pews--just the direction one faces!!! I know for a fact there are women at Granbury that are ready and willing to participate and are wanting to feel that they are really a part of the worship rather than bench warmers. We have some women that can lead beautiful, sincere prayers but only a very few of our males have ever had the opportunity to participate in that. There are also men (besides me :>) ) who share those feelings. Maybe this particular format will eventually be the crack in the door we need. I found it interesting and frustrating that they describe this as an almost anything goes format and then restrict women so bluntly from such a simple form of participation where no one is down front and everything is by memory and spontaneous!
One good thing occured today (at least we found out about it!). Our small groups have organized for the next year. The elder who I really look to alot (and who I have been able to get involved in reading "A Community without Barriers") made a point of picking us for their group. Hopefully, we will have some time to really discuss the problems and solutions. He and his wife have become good friends although our shift work really makes it tough to get together. A simple kindness they did for us years ago relating to our oldest daughter is the root reason that she ended up in full time ministry!
BTW, over on GCMagazine Discussion Board, there have been some extended discussions on women under the theology and discuss-articles sections. It's been interesting! But It's getting to the point of wanting to shout "Why don'tcha get it??!!!!!"
Grace to you and peace.
:::posted by Wiley on 9/08/2003 11:01:38 PM
can women address the group to request a song???
This may be extra annoying to me, because this was a Thing that seemed to happen quite often at Harding when I was an undergrad there (perhaps a contributing reason to my habit of avoiding as many devos as possible during those 4 years, though I never bothered to analyze this at the time). It cropped up again during my first year in China, although (ironically) singing was specified as one of the two ways women were allowed to vocalize during an assembly (the other was, if you are curious, saying the word "amen" in response to the preacher. The preacher proposing this did not get an amen from me, or for that matter, any other women in the room). Anyway, I don't have anything constructive to contribute on this, just wanted to commiserate.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 9/08/2003 04:53:53 PM
Hey Wiley,
Baby steps.
Could the women read Scripture and pray? Was leading a song the only spoken prohibition for women? Were there unspoken prohibitions? (Too many questions?)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/08/2003 02:37:35 PM
It seems that whenever we take a step forward, we must, by the general rules of physics, have an equal reaction in the opposit direction.
Granbury took a big step forward yesterday evening by initiating (one hour before the traditional 6pm evening worship service) a shorter Communion service based on the 9pm Sunday evening Communion service at University CoC in Abilene. The man responsible for getting it going is our youth minister and was in charge of the University Church Communion service for a year. I wasn't able to attend (had to work) but my wife said it really went well and was really special----except-------(the laws of physics here :>) )
When the basic format was explained, he said that in this service (unlike our traditional services!) we could clap, raise hands, lead songs from the seats (all songs sung by memory--no song leader, over head, or books), read Scripture at any time, pray, and take Communion whenever we felt the time was right. Communion tables were at the front and back of the auditorium. There was, however, one thing that was specifically requested not to be done---------------------------------------
"We ask that women do not lead any songs"
ACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:::posted by Wiley on 9/08/2003 12:49:01 PM
Thanks Kirk.
I love it when our communion is homemade instead of dry Matzos. It feels so good that someone took the time to make it. Most of the time our communion bread is homemade because our minister's wife loves to make it. It is good to take a piece and know that Nancy made it to serve to our family.
That was a very interesting statistic from your friend in Missouri...we could draw some big conclusions from that situation.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/04/2003 10:48:19 PM
Julie,
Congratulations on your first communion oration. To do a role reversal, while you were nervous about public speaking, here in my own congregation, I was nervous from behind the scenes.
It was the first time I volunteered to set up communion, so I decided to go out on a limb and try baking communion bread. I baked 10 small loaves for use in two services. The bread turned out a little puffier and tougher than I envisioned, and I was nervous that it might not "break" properly. I thought about buying bread at the grocery, but decided to go ahead and use what I had baked as my gift. Everything turned out just fine. The biggest challenge was that the 9:00 service ended late, and there were only a few minutes to fill four trays with wine and grape juice before the 10:30 service started!
This past weekend, while visiting a friend in Springfield, Missouri, I worshipped at a Southern Baptist church at the invitation of my host. None of the worship leaders were women, and from the bulletin I noticed that women were only in charge of "women's ministries." I imagine that male domination is quite the norm there in what seems to be the epicenter of funadmentalism. Interestingly my friend informed me that, despite the outward religiosity and generally low rates of "public" crimes such as theft and vandalism, apparently southwest Missouri has one of the highest rates of domestic violence in the country. Chilling indeed...
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 9/04/2003 09:06:23 PM
Lance,
Actually, after I read your last post, I went straight to my bookshelf to get Frei's Eclipse of Biblical Narrative, thinking I need to look at it again. I always found it so turgid that I think I never quite got his point. So thanks for your nice summary. I find the world invoked by the text to be a helpful way of thinking about these things.
Tim,
I think you, Lance and I are in the same ballpark.
You say, " I see God speaking to people (beyond the writer) in the text in a divinely authoritative way, so that it is the guide and standard for me to align myself with."
I completely agree with the second clause. As for the first clause, the Bible itself suggests that God has spoken definitively in Jesus Christ (e.g., John 1:1-18; Heb 1; etc.), not in a written text. The NT is a product of the christian community trying to discern what God said at the cross. The church over time developed the canon as a fixed collection of writings that express most adequately what God was saying in Jesus. God / Holy Spirit works through the Church for discernment. Our tradition has trouble with this, because we don't allow much room to appreciate either the Holy Spirit or Christian tradition, but I think we cannot talk adequately about Scripture apart from those things.
Keep us posted on how your class develops the question.
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 9/04/2003 12:37:11 PM
Shelly, God can do amazing things!!!!! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/04/2003 11:06:55 AM
Patty,
I cannot imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I'm sorry; you and MC are in my prayers daily.
Everyone,
I really enjoy reading everyone's posts, even when I have nothing to say, I love to read about what is going on.
Our congregation is in a kind of "limbo" we hired 2 new preachers who started last month and it will be awhile before things settle down here. Our Elders were to start a study on "women" at the beginning of 2003, but it has been postponed. Some are making progress in small groups and as "ministry leaders" and maybe that's the way it needs to work for us, from the inside out, so to speak . . . ? What do you guys think? Am I being overly optimistic ?! Can change take place l ike this?
Peace,
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 9/03/2003 06:10:47 PM
We're just all thinking, "Lance is such a Yalie." ;-)
:::posted by Chad on 9/03/2003 08:56:47 AM
I see that I have invoked the deafening silence. Maybe this just means that everybody is busy devouring a copy of Frei’s The Eclipse of Biblical Narrative. Yeah, right!
:::posted by Lance on 9/03/2003 08:03:56 AM
Chris and Tim,
Chris, I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Barth on the Word. He certainly wants to distinguish between the words on the page and that irreducible encounter which may be called the Word of God. But is it really fair to say that the Bible is merely a collection of human testimony concerning such genuine encounters with the divine? I’m convinced that the Bible is God’s way of provoking such encounters anew for those who read it in faith. Still, I share your commitment to a reading of Scripture that takes the human dimension of the writings seriously.
I am increasingly persuaded by the post-modern/post-liberal/post-critical reading strategy proposed by George Lindbeck, Hans Frei and others. Frei dedicated his career to exploring the implications of Barth’s theology for hermeneutics. The result is a reading strategy that is very sophisticated--aware of critical issues, but creatively resistant to the tyranny of the “old” critical agenda.
I agree with Tim that different kinds of texts may require different interpretive strategies. With respect to the roughly 2/3 of the New Testament that Frei has described as “realistic narrative,” I think we would do well to attend carefully to his insights. Of central importance is the recognition that the New Testament narratives don’t woodenly report history (fundamentalism), nor do they tell stories as a kind of commentary on the so-called “real” world (higher criticism), so much as they propose a reality of their own, and invite their readers to participate in it. In other words, narratives are world-making. Therefore to read the Bible as an authoritative text is not to master its application to the supposed “real” world of our experience, but to humbly submit to and inhabit the world it performs. It follows that the chief problem in hermeneutics is not “how can we apply this text to the world we live in?”, but rather, “how can we participate in the world imagined by this text?” The world performed/evoked/imagined/created by the text is not the first century world, nor the twenty-first century world, but a third option, the world made possible by these stories.
Thought Experiment: The World-Making Quality of Stories
A lawyer confronts Jesus with the following question about neighbor-love: “And who is my neighbor?” The question is world-making. It evokes a stingy little world in which one may unabashedly ask: “Will someone please just tell me whom I am obliged to love?” The implication is that there is very little love to go around and that it should be hoarded and dispensed cautiously to the deserving.
Jesus refuses to answer the question on its own terms. To answer is to grant credence to a lesser moral world than the one he is determined to announce. Instead, characteristically, he ignores the question and initiates a subversive counter-narrative—one that evokes a new world. Jesus begins: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho…” The story he weaves immediately begins to dispel the stingy little world proposed by the question. The lawyer’s world is ousted by the Reign of God—a world charged with serendipity, sacrifice, and grace. This is not a story about treating Samaritans well--Jesus is up to something far more surprising than that. Here, a Samaritan (presumably the kind of person the question sought to exclude from the obligations of neighbor love) is narrated as a champion of inclusive love. Here he is binding wounds and applying ointment. Here he is paying an innkeeper and promising more if needed, an abundance of mercy. Suddenly, subversively, the original question has begun to sound rather perverse—who could ask such an obscene thing? It seems so out of place in this new world in which we find ourselves. It’s not really appropriate to ask what Jesus’ story means. It is all too clear what it has done.
:::posted by Lance on 9/01/2003 07:20:07 PM
Chris:
Sorry for the delay in responding; it's been a busy week. I'm weighing what you suggest about reading the Bible for what it says about God rather than the authority of God. In the class I mentioned, this week we talked about the Bible as "story". By that I understand that the Bible is written by people whom God has moved to tell to others their stories of interacting with God. That's too simplistic, of course, because there are different kinds of texts. But I do not see the Bible simply as commands from God communicated through people. Still, I see God speaking to people (beyond the writer) in the text in a divinely authoritative way, so that it is the guide and standard for me to align myself with. Where do we go from here?
As for other things, I think I'm with you on 1 Cor 14. You're a brave man to address it head on as you have. BTW, I still have problems with the third person imperative thing. I prefer to shift it to the second person, because we see the third person as polite or something. (EX: God said, "Let there be light." Not, "Darkness, if you don't mind, would you please let there be some light.")
Julie -- Thanks for sharing your communion meditation with us. It's a beautiful illustration. I'll have to tell you sometime about the purple river I created in our church.
Peace all,
Tim
:::posted by Tim on 9/01/2003 11:19:06 AM
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