The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Katie:
Of course there will always be incidents where a Christian male/female friendship lapses into an affair. Do I think gender-just churches would have lower numbers of affairs than the hierarchal model churches have ... ? No. But I can't imagine them being any higher!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 5/29/2003 09:48:00 PM
Friends, a little while ago David Doom from Georgia sent me this email reply to the intergender friendship question. He gave me permission to post it on his behalf as he’s having trouble getting onto the blog.
“…Cross gender friendships have many built-in problems, of which you probably have more experience with than I. One problem is when you have an instant rapport with half of a couple, but just endure the other half. …The other problem is having a friendship with someone your mate doesn't care for. My wife feels I should be great friends with someone here she is comfortable with, but I don't connect with him at all.
“One thing that is necessary for any friendship is shared experiences. As slight as it may seem on the surface, serving communion together can be a bonding experience that women and men never had before. I was standing in the back of the auditorium the first time [a woman at Cahaba Valley C of C in Birmingham] read scripture. I nodded to her as she left the auditorium and whispered, "You did good.” She was almost crying and was trembling all over. It wasn't just because she was allowed to read, but fear of reading in public. She can get up and sing a solo before a large group, but reading scared her. She said she doesn't think she could lead prayer in church, though she has in small groups many times. I have known [this friend] for thirty years, but never felt close to her till then.
“As men and women serve God together as equals in their own eyes as well as his, intergender bonding will greatly increase. As these shared experiences increase, so will friendships increase and the joys and problems friendship brings with it. It will be a way for God to build the body, and a way for the devil to attack us. …I look forward to reading other replies and reading your feelings about it in future forums.”
Again, friends, this is a post from David Doom of Georgia. Thanks, David, for your wisdom. You had known your friend for thirty years, but never felt close to her till the morning she read scripture in church and shared this experience with you… interesting.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/29/2003 08:12:53 PM
Did Chad just snake out of the "when Harry met Sally" question? "Work is currently calling?" C'mon Chad, you can do better than that! In the meantime I'll take a stab at Katie's question....oh wait a minute, I better go fix supper. ;)
Joe
Ft. Worth, TX
:::posted by jch on 5/29/2003 06:52:43 PM
:::posted by Carmen on 5/29/2003 06:32:00 PM
I want to announce that I'm now going to try a little research experiment in gender roles: the next time someone, after learning that my education is in history and religion, asks me, "What are you going to do with that?" I will now be quoting Jennifer's line - "Oh, maybe I'll have babies with it." :)
A couple of thoughts on these recent insightful, interesting, and sometimes downright hilarious-and-heartbreaking-at-the-same-time posts. First, an observation/proposal. At the risk of getting accused of being nitpicky about our terminology, I wonder if it might be helpful, at least when talking about what have been termed "gender differences," to make a distinction between "sexual" differences and "gender" differences – the former having more to do with our biological understanding of “male and female” and the latter with the cultural meanings of “masculinity and femininity.” While I agree with Carmen and Jen’s point that we need to pay attention to differences between men and women, I’m a little wary of understanding those differences to be something universal or essential (i.e. confusing the two types of differences) to what it means to be a woman or man, especially without reference to actual, historical persons. I wouldn’t want to be locked into a practice and understanding that didn’t allow for fluidity in terms of giftedness, calling, and personality.
Second, I’m wondering why more people (especially the dudes on the forum, with “dude” being, of course, a technical term) haven’t bitten on Katie’s “when Harry met Sally” question. Not that I’m going to be any braver – I’m not stupid! ;-) Seriously, I think it’s a great, pressing question – but one that, unfortunately, I will have to answer later as work is currently calling. :)
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 5/29/2003 04:40:04 PM
Thanks for the welcome. There's so much to say! In the future, I promise my posts will be less ecclectic.
Seeing all of your responses prompts more questions:
Vicki - you say that for the life of you, you don't know how someone can study this, claim to believe it and then walk away. I know what you mean. I guess this is more of a statement, really.
When I became a member of the churches of Christ, I thought that for the sake of peace, this was something I was just going to have to live with, to walk away from. But I couldn't. I still can't. Everytime I've tried - for the sake of peace (personal or community), for the sake of sanity, for the sake of soemthing Else - I can't leave it be. There have been days when I devoutly prayed God would remove this thorn from my side, that I could just bury the hatchet and take up my caserole dish and enlist with the 4 and 5 year olds. But I can't. Those aren't my talents, those aren't my gifts, and those certainly aren't my passion. It's something I'm not good at, but also something I don't want.
But often I don't want this, either. I don't want to be the stranger in my home, the "heretic" of Bono, and perceived as a raging femeNazi. (Communism was all the rage in small town life of the fifties. It seems we have traded tags - femenists, it is agreed, are more "dangerous." At least in my home town.)
Perhaps one of the hardest lessons I ever learned was that in the end, God doesn't actually care what I want. He doesn't need me, you or anyone else to accomplish his purpose. The miracle of this is despite that, he wants us and does use us. God doesn't care what I want. And just like he doesn't care that I want to learn Hebrew (what is it to God if I know Hebrew if I don't know Him?), he doesn't care that I also want to be able to forget and lay aside this.
C's of C are notorious for shying away from the term "calling." It is too charismatic for us, too reminiscent of the "denominational world." If it's not a calling, what is it?
My question is this: Why do we do it when it seems life would be so much simpler, even easier, if we just walked away? I think the answer is the same for a lot of us: we can't. In the words of Jeremiah, "But if I say, 'I will not mention him or speak any more in his name,' his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot."
Quiara
:::posted by Q on 5/29/2003 01:22:05 PM
Heather, Zoe is really a group of people who are committed to renewal in worship and they plan a conference every October in Nashville. We just call it the Zoe conference when it really has another name....it changes from year to year. The conference focuses on worship...classes and small groups that are focused on very specific areas and many worship experiences that bring you to the feet of Jesus. It is so powerful because it is Spirit lead. You would love it. I have gone every year for the past 6 years...I think. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/29/2003 01:08:02 AM
Heather - From your post: "guilty knowledge." That is the state you find yourself in when "now that you know what you know you will never be the same again and you can never un-know it." If I remember right, Floyd Rose wrote in my book something like "When your courage catches up with your knowledge, you act on it. You must."
That is SO true for me, but I see that it is not true with others. They can study it, agree to it, and claim to believe it, but walk away from practicing it. For the life of me, I don't know how they can.
:::posted by Vicki on 5/28/2003 11:09:41 PM
Good for you Q!! Graduate school is fun, fun, fun. (Even when you are 39 with a child, a husband,a dog, a mortgage and a ministry!) Soak every bit of it up and never curse the days you aren't prepared for a Greek vocabulary and parsing test because life interveened. Sometimes that's just the way it is-you are still going to be one of the very fortunate people on this earth and in the church to be able to study the things you will study. Our dean, Dr. Robert Hull, (strong suporter of women in ministry) says that after coming to seminary we develop what is known as "guilty knowledge." That is the state you find yourself in when "now that you know what you know you will never be the same again and you can never un-know it." That is not such an easy thing-in fact it can be heart wrenching. But I'll tell you the truth-I wouldn't go back for anything. Jen- my heart goes out to you. I made up my mind 2 years ago that when someone asked me.."and what do youplan to do with an MDIv when you graduate?" I would say, with no explanations, no apologies and without blinking, "I plan to minister in the church." If they pursue it by asking, "What kind of ministry?" I say, I've been told that I am a good preacher and I feel that I have abilites in teaching." They dont' usually say anything after that. But I sleep better at night speaking aloud what I believe God has called me to do. And in regard to the CCCC, I was at the North American Christian Convention 3 years ago in Louisville(CCCC's biggest "lectureship" of sorts) and the big mega-church guru/sr. minister Bob Russell said in his remarks in front of 10,000 plus people, "we in the Christian Churches don't believe in ordaining women to positions of teaching and preaching." The crowd went wild and I nearly got sick to my stomach. Here I was, 4 months out of the COC and I thought I had found the promised land in the CCCC. Then I realized that my only expereince had been with Emmanuel School of Religion and a wonderful church nearby. I didn't know that things were this bad out in the churches. I have come to see since then that there are wonderful exceptions to that awful impression. There are according to the ministerial year book of the CCCC approx 800 or so women in paid ministerial postions. that is double from 1997. In some ways it is an improvement because many categories have exploded with the #s of women in them...children's minstry, worship...higher ed but the bad news is some categories have stayed the same. The Stained glass ceiling. I only know of one woman in the pulpit preaching in a CCCC. When I heard Bob Russell say what eh did, I wanted to stand up and yell, "Hey who appointed you general minister?!" Not that I think a general minister is a bad idea-Bob Russell just would'nt have been my nominee, and here he was speaking for "us." I mean really-speak for yourself-maybe Southeast CC in Louisville has 15,000 members and there are NO women ministers on staff but that is not true in all Christian Churches. It is changing.not quickly enought to suit me, but it is changing. You folks may not care about the CCCCs but some of the parallels are spooky.
Would somebody please tell me what ZOE is and where and when?! I will write more about gender justice later-don't want to web-hog.
Pax-Heather
:::posted by heather on 5/28/2003 10:08:10 PM
So much good stuff to respond to! This makes my day.
I'm in total agreement with Carmen about the need to recognize gender differences as we strive for justice. In the discussions we had at Highland last spring, I felt there was a lot of confusion on this point. Striving for gender justice shouldn't mean denying that there are true differences between men and women. A lot of protests that I heard from people against moving toward an inclusive stance on women's roles in public worship were based on an assertion that due to the differences between men and women, women were more fit for the roles we've always been handed, and unfit for other roles (in public worship, teaching, preaching, etc.). I think the only way to effectively counter that protest is to grant the differences in gender and affirm them in a way that makes it clear that women's gifts are equally needed in public ministry roles.
Strong sympathy for our new contributor Q. I have felt very bitter at times, after visiting a new church or something, when people ask my husband, "what's your degree?" and he says,"M.Div.," and they get all excited and say, "oh, great, will you go into ministry? what are you planning to do?" So they chit chat about his plans and they're all happy. Then Brent will say, "my wife has an MA in Theology," and their faces fall and in confusion, they say, "oh. what are you gonna do with that?" I mean, they try to be polite, mostly, but there's such a difference between the excitement and support they show my husband, and the incomprehension and veiled disapproval that I get. And I agree with you, too, that "what I'll do with it" is not the thing anyway. It's simply knowledge worth pursuing. I used to tell people, "Oh, maybe I'll have babies with it," since it was both safe and ironic, but Brent hated this answer so much I've stopped giving it. But honestly, if I did "have babies with it" it would still be worth the time and the effort and the expense. Because it is a worthy pursuit, period.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 5/28/2003 09:17:47 PM
Howdy Q. Just wanted to welcome you here. I live at the very top of the Hill Country of Texas (outside of Walnut Springs) and I have three daughters, one (my oldest) who has earned a Masters in Christian Education (Children's Ministry) from ACU and is a Childrens minister in the Ft. Worth/Dallas area. I don't post much these days mainly due to a lack of time because of a more than full time job in nuclear security, my own business, moderating a discussion list [not this one:>], taking care of two web sites [personal and church] and the church computers, taking care of a 198 acre farm, and making sure I get some time with my beautiful grand daughter who is just over 4 months old [the most fun thing of all!]. Kind of busy !! But when ever I read of a female with the education plans and desires that you have, I just have to take the time to say hello and and say "go for it!" It won't be easy, and it gets even tougher once it's done and you enter the world of ministry and dealing with narrow minded male elders, but it's worth it --- just ask my oldest daughter! Thanks for joining in.
Grace to you and peace. Wiley Clarkson
:::posted by Wiley on 5/28/2003 09:48:43 AM
Ok, I'm back!
Our family was traveling in Europe during the Pepperdine lectures so I missed an otherwise perfect opportunity to hear Katie and the chance to meet most of you.
Welcome Q and Heather! I will be anxious to hear more about gender-justice from your perspectives. From what I have seen, even though they let gender justice theology through the door long ago, the CCCC and CCDOC have not evolved much farther from the point the COC is today. From what I have seen in the DOC congregations near me, the breakthroughs are mostly surface and are met with backsliding to old comfort zones. Also, this year, a presbyterian friend saw her large church go from equal-opportunity with a husband and wife ministry team (as well as a man and woman team to run the singles and the teen ministries in tandum) back to the all-male ministry they had seven years ago (seven year itch?) She thinks this had something to do with the husband/wife ministry team getting a divorce (irreconcilable differences). The congregation wanted the wife to stay, but the leadership settled on the husband. Within a week they fired the woman single/teen minister and changed the title of the woman Bible School coordinator from "minister" to "director". She does not get any sense that the hiring committee is interested in having women fill in the empty ministry positions.
So what do you guys see going on out there?
I continue to wonder if what is generally taught and/or grasped as gender-justice theology is too thin ...? too anemic to take hold for very long? And I wonder if we keep it thin in order to communicate it far and wide? I wonder if many advocates of gender-justice are in denial about the power of the message they preach? I have been thinking that until the gender-justice theologians commit to recognise man and woman as an objective act of creation with differences as deep and symbiotic as the metaphor of the cup and the wine -- both are carriers of a different dynamic and neither can be effective in isolation -- it will not fully integrate into Christian theology. So many want to reduce gender-justice to mere balance or equality and avoid discussing gender-differences. Gender-justice should not be gender-blindness -- gender differences are, I believe, an encrypted message about God's love and the Gospel of Christ. I think this is why we have that phenomena of people weeping unexpectedly when they see men and women serving together in church for the first time. They are responding to an image of God and the gospel of Christ that they have never seen before.
Gotta go! ... don't want to hog the bandwidth.
Carmen
San Diego
:::posted by Carmen on 5/27/2003 06:37:00 PM
Hardly off topic, Q. You are right that the traditional position is harmful, I think. Church leaders worry about who will be offended and possibly driven away (to another congregation, likely) if we become more open to gender justice, always forgetting those who are driven away, or never come in the first place, because of our inconsistent stance. Over the last twenty years I know of scores of individuals and families who have left congregations I have been part of because the leaders refused to even study the matter. Sad.
May God bless you in pursuit of your degree. It's something I ponder from time to time as well. My youngest child will be out of the nest in a couple of years, and perhaps it will be time to pursue an M.Div. or related study.
Welcome, Q.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 5/27/2003 05:04:30 PM
This may seem off topic, but this also seems the perfect place to say this.
I'm going to be working toward my M.A. and my M.Div. in the Old Testament at the Harding Grad school and I hope to begin this fall. Gender justice is something I've struggled with for a long time. In part, I used to think this was because I am a convert. I wasn't raised in the churches of Christ and became a member when I was 16. It was a hard move for me to make on many levels - family, friends and personal - this just seemed like one more thing I'd simply have to adjust to. But I couldn't.
Never before had I doubted my worth as a soul before God. It wasn't immediate, but it is impossible to deny. Many people - including a man I look to as a sort of second father - don't understand what I mean when I say that the church's position on this is not just hard, it's harmful.
I work at a Christian camp during the summer; we work primarily with teens. I've been asked time and again why we lose so many teen girls. While I don't have the definitive answer, I can at least say that part of it is due to this attitude. When the boys are 12 years old or so and it seems we've managed to "dunk" the majority of them, they begin to be taught how to lead. They learn to lead prayer, lead singing, participate in serving communion and give devotionals. The girls, on the other hand, are taught for the 32nd time that quarter how to date the right guy, how not to wind up an un-wed mother, and they're encouraged to sign up to work in the nursery . . . rinse, repeat ad nauseum. Essentially they're taught nothing. (Honestly, based on the demographic we encounter, if they girls don't have the message by the time they're sixteen, they're not going to get it. What's more, those who did get it no longer care.) Essentially, we're teaching them that there's not a place for them in the Lord's church unless they're good with 2 year olds.
Is it any wonder they're falling away? If there's not a place for them, why should they stay?
I am encouraged when I read this community, when I see others who understand. Because so many don't seem to. When people hear that I'm wanting to work toward eventually my doctorate in Bible, the question I get more often than not is "What are you going to do with that?" That question has seemed to me to be irrelevant from the beginning. I don't study this stuff with a view of "usurping" some male role. It's never been about what I would ultimately do (career wise) with it. I know that people can be effective, valuable servants in God's church and do a number of things - banking, teaching, construction, whatever - but I'm not one of them. I cannot see myself devoting the rest of my life to the pursuit of any other type of knowledge. It's not about what I'm going to "do" someday, it's about what it does to me. The Bible is the word of God not because we do so much with it, but because it changes people. If we are not changed, how can it be holy?
This is kind of a ramble - a collection of thoughts I wanted to express. I appreciate all of you so much. I read D'esta Love's article and I can say "I've been there!" I read Katie Hayes writings and feel that I honestly know her - I don't, but I feel that way. I'm so glad there are more people out there who are working so hard to at least bring attention to this.
So thank you. And keep on, because whether it feels like it or not, you do make a difference.
~Q.
:::posted by Q on 5/27/2003 12:21:21 PM
Tom, it was great to meet you and your wife. My husband already knew Tom and they were talking and called me over...my husband said this is Tom Dockery and I just wanted to hug him immediately. There is something about knowing where we stand and the conversation that we share here that attaches us to each other. Tom, I appreciate you coming to our Praise Night...he drove over an hour to be with us. Thanks...grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/25/2003 11:19:16 PM
It was great to get a chance to go to Bowie last night for the time of praise, and to put faces to the names of Julie and Ann. Now I don't feel quite so left out from not being able to go to Zoe or Pepperdine! It's encouraging to visit a congregation where gender justice is really taking hold. God bless you.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 5/25/2003 09:27:04 AM
Oops, I forgot that I had more to say. For me, gender justice was the beginning point of a lot of things. I think it was easier to see a justice issue that directly affected me personally...and from there it because easier to see that there were other important justice concerns. Like, what it means to see an evicted family on the sidewalk, as a Christian, as part of a church. I think Julie's confession is brave and personal and yet also a confession on behalf of us all. Everyday I look out the window and am confronted with the evidence that I live a much more comfortable existence than my neighbors across the street--and the only reason is that my skin is white and I speak English with a nasal American accent. Almost everyday I hand a yuan to the little old man who begs on our street corner, who has so much dignity that if he sees me more than once in a day he makes it a point to cover his bowl the second time to show he doesn't expect any more from me. These things make me miserably uncomfortable and I have yet to come up with any course of action beyond making sure that I always have change in my pocket ready for anyone who asks.
Thanks for your words, Julie.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 5/23/2003 12:45:52 AM
The topic of intergender friendships was always a big one in my family. I have always had more guy friends than girl friends, and my youngest sister Emily is the same way. So my mom and I would always have discussions about whether it was possible to really "just be friends." (She has always maintained it is not, but she herself had a very good guy friend in high school whom she regularly reminisces about and insists that things were purely platonic!) I've never thought about intergender friendships with regard to gender justice and the church, though. But it makes sense to me that once we begin to see each other as equally children of God, we open ourselves to the possibility of friendships that might otherwise be unlikely. Of course, I suppose that cautious people like my Mom who don't really believe in platonic sentiment may have some adjusting ahead of them.
Like Julie, I have several close male friends that predate my marriage, but haven't formed many more since. I think maybe this is just a function of how much more time I now spend with the really close male friend whom I married... Also, my husband has several good female friends whom he still keeps in close touch with, one of whom I've never even met but who greets me in her emails nevertheless. It doesn't spark any jealousy in me and he doesn't seem to feel uncomfortable that I still email a couple of guys. We do try to make it a point to share these friends with each other, though, and not keep them to ourselves.
I don't really have any idea how strange (or normal) this is. I hadn't really thought about it too much. So...how weird are we? Or are we all weird here together?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 5/23/2003 12:20:40 AM
Heather, I am so excited that you are friends with Ted and Jane Ann. We share so much history...I am sure that Jane Ann will fill you in on it all. They were part of my childhood and my in-laws were part of Jane Ann's childhood. Ted is from the same hometown in Connecticutt as one of my closest friends and they went all through school together. I watched their children grow up and they have watched ours...some great stories that we share from those times. Jane Ann, Tammy Selby and I have taken little trips together...Williamsburg, Wilmington and others...always fun and so full of discussion and laughter. You have brought back a flood of memories...thanks... Give them both gigantic hugs from us. Ask Jane Ann if she has written on her new walls and tell her that I have many words on my walls now. She will understand.
Katie, serious question that is difficult to answer. In high school and college I had many very close male friends. They were my confidantes. We had deep conversation and were connected in ways that my girlfriends and I were not connected. As an adult I still have those male friends from that era in my life but I don't know if I have developed any new ones that are as deep. There are three men that I can think of that I feel very close to but I would consider them more father figure kind of friends. I trust them and would definitely seek them out when I need guidance or I am in crisis but it is not the same kind of heart friends that I had in college. We have just begun to include women fully and it is interesting that I do believe I am beginning to develop some closer male relationships within our congregation...not sure if that has come about from our small group situation or from gender justice.
This will be a drastic change of subject and is very much a confession and a question to all of you. I was at church tonight and we have a mentally disabled older woman who lives in a group home who had come for Bible study. She is there everytime we meet. She became ill and I took her home. She loves me and tells me that often...blows kisses as she is walking away. I feel so unworthy of her love. As I watched her walk into her apartment, my tears began to flow out of guilt. I sometimes become impatient with her and I many times complain about what I need or want or that things just aren't how I want them. Watching her I realized how blessed I have been. Then I pulled out of her parking lot and there straight in front of me was a family who had been evicted and they were trying to gather all their things from off the curb. I was reminded again at how ungrateful I am. Later tonight I was home with my family and I act as if none of that ever happened. I yell at my kids, my husband and I complain. Wow, I am definitely human....my flesh is so weak...so hard to overcome...I feel like Paul...I do exactly what I don't want to do. I am so keenly aware of my weakness... How do we move past this? One foot in front of the other? Just felt the need for confession.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/21/2003 11:56:09 PM
Okay, so, here's a question I've been thinking about. How do intergender friendships come into play in congregations where gender justice is happening, or decidedly not happening?
We have talked about how gender justice travels with other developments in congregations. For example, when the roles for women and men in worship or leadership at church are in play, the roles for married folks are also in play. Either egalitarian marriages become normal in gender just churches, or because there are egalitarian couples in the church, gender justice at church follows. Whatever the cause-and-effect relationship, non-traditional marriages can often be found in high numbers in churches practicing gender justice. (Of course, this is totally anecdotal. I can't prove it, but I feel it.)
I'm interested to hear from you women and men who favor gender justice whether you have successfully cultivated intergender friendships in your Christian adulthood. I'm talking about deep friendship between a man and a woman who are not married to each other and possibly married to others. This is a hot topic in both secular and religious sociology as women move into the public sphere and become colleagues with men, in business and in church.
So, what about our gal328.org forum pool? Do you folks have significant friendships with people of the opposite sex? If so, do these relationships lend anything to your understanding of gender justice in our churches?
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/21/2003 02:26:02 PM
Julie-I know Ted and Jane Ann very well. They have become great freinds. We worshiped toogether at Grandviw Christian before I took my job at Boones Creek. My husband, Jack, and Ted are on the committee to plan the forum together. The older couple you mentioned may have been Earl and Audie Merel Stuckenbruck.
Its kind of scrary how many you have connnections with and just don't know it.
Pax -Heather
:::posted by heather on 5/21/2003 12:13:11 PM
Heather..at Pepperdine, an older couple told us about the Restoration Forum Group and encouraged us to attend. They were a precious couple...so much fun and full of life...seemed a little mischevious.
Also, our old friend teaches at Milligan. His name is Ted Thomas. They have asked many times for us to come and visit.
See, we are just broadening our families...not cutting off. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/20/2003 11:20:11 PM
New Friends-
Thank you for the warm welcome! I'll try not to "hog" the table. :)
Sara-as to your observation that many young women train for ministry and struggle trying to find positions to serve in...well that's just the seems to be the main topic of discussion every year around graduation time. In one of my classes here at Emmanuel a fellow student(male) was lamenting that the best preaching student, most gifted evangelist, most overall promising ministry student was graduating without a job this year...because she is a woman. I converse daily with women students-primarily the second career women-who realize they are getting closer to graduation and they are going to face a tough time when they start trying to find a church that will even be willing to have conversation with them. I do find however that the climate for women doing ministry in the CC/COC (the independants acronym for themselves...Christian Churches /Churches of Christ-aslo called the 4 Cs ) is a little more favorable than that of the COC. Here in Johnson City we have had 2 Emmanuel women graduates formally ordained into ministry since February. There was no qualification on their ordination i.e. they weren't ordained to "youth mnsitry" or "christian ed" . Both of their ordinations were to Christian Ministry. IOW the ordination ceriticates that hang on their walls read just like the Sr. pastor down the hall. In the case of one of these young women,this ordination was the first ordiantion of a woman at this particular congregation.(and it was a long and difficult process I might add) They have recently begun to call women ministers instead of "directors". This business about titles and ordination may not seem like a big deal to anyone else. But in the 4Cs ordination is a step in people's minds toward the legitimization of ministry. That's part of why these ordiantions are controversial. I am sure that news of the recent events will show up in various journals and such.
Lance-where is your uncle and what is his name if you can tell me? And it does seems to me that gender justice/equality and ecumenical disposition does seems to go together-and no i don't think(at least in the 4Cs) that openness to worship and gender justice go together. The Glen-Mary institute in Nashville reported in October 2002 that the 4Cs churches is the fastest growing denomination in the US excluding LDsaints. That is because we have so many mega-churches; which have full blown contemporary music. Undoubtedly women in the churches are doing minsitry but don't bet your money that any of them are preaching, teaching with men in the room, in leadership etc. Those churches( ie Southeast CC in Louisvillel KY -15,000 membership) is a lot more like a local Bible church than any Stone-Campbell congregation. No women minsters on their staff. So we are the fastest growing group but we are not particularlay just. A confusing and conflicted trend.
Sorry to ramble about all this ordination stuff-its near and dear.I looked forward all day to checking out the discussion-it was a lot more fun than my Greek Final!
Also-the Restoration Forum group (a meeting that encourages dialogue with all 3 branches) will be meeting here at Milligan college(the 4 Cs only liberal Arts Christian College) in Johnson City in October. I understand that Charme Robarts, and Paul Watson are both on the docket. You haven't lived if you have never seen Appalachia in the Fall!
Pax-Heather
:::posted by heather on 5/20/2003 11:05:53 PM
Welcome Heather, I know what you mean about knowing that people are out there who are courageous. I might have given up a long time ago if I had not known that there were others out there. And like Vicki said...you are family...come to the table. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/20/2003 04:57:43 PM
I just noticed it was julie who sent the encouraging words. So, thanks to Julie for that!
-sara
:::posted by sara on 5/20/2003 01:56:57 PM
I hadn't checked the website in several days. It was good to see so many messages. Vicki, thanks for your words of encouragement. I really needed them today. I wanted to remind everyone of a problem I heard about when I was at Pepperdine. This may have been mentioned before I joined the forum. It seems that there are several young women who are training to be ministers, but there are few churches where there are opportunities for them to do internships. I think it was D'Esta Love who was talking about this. I have had that problem on my heart since I heard about it, and I am going to be praying specifically for opportunities for those young women. I am asking around in the area about what opportunities there might be as well. So, please join me in prayer and in networking in your area for them.
Blessings,
-Sara
:::posted by sara on 5/20/2003 01:53:47 PM
Heather,
I'm glad you posted. I have an uncle who is a minister in the Independent Christian Church. I don't mind saying that I find that I have more in common with him than with most Church of Christ folks.
A couple of weeks ago we were discussing the degree to which gender justice tracks with worship reform. I think an ecumenical disposition is probably a closer corollary. Without exception in my experience, churches that are interested in gender justice are also interested in dialogue and fellowship with Christians of other "flavors."
And anyway, in the overall scheme of things, you haven't so much left home as just moved down a couple of doors.
Peace,
Lance
:::posted by Lance on 5/20/2003 12:02:51 PM
Hi Heather! Welcome to the 3:28 family.
The first time you sit at our table you are our guest. I am honored to serve you. The next time we surround the table, you will be a part of, and will serve others, with us. (We have the SuperGlue that will mend that broken plate.)
Have you been reading Julie's dream? What do you think?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 5/20/2003 10:49:35 AM
Hello all- my name is Heather Holland. i am a 36 year COC-er from denton Texas( 1 year at ACU) transplanted to johnson City Tenn at the graduate seminary Emmanuel School of Religion. My husband jack (assistant professor of pastoral care and counseling at ESR) and son Samuel moved here almost 4 yrs ago to start this new journey. I am finishing my MDiv -what an incredible blessing. Emmanuel is an amazing place. I preach, I lead worship, I read scripture publicly, I have discussions with really bright people about very important things and I don't get rotten fruit thrown at me or worse...patted on the head and called "girl." The amount of liberation made us cry every night for a year. We are in the Independant christian church now, where I am a minister of worship, but sometimes I still feel like I ran away from home and they are gonna come find me. I still think about the COC a lot. I would like to know more about this convention-ZOE. To Katie Hays-we have a mutual friend Karen Deifendorf-i think you were at Yale together. Let's talk about her sometime. I am so glad the COC has folks like ya'll that don't flinch from the tuff stuff. I ,sadly, have only personally known a few like that in my life. I might have hung on longer in the COC if I had. Even though I am out of the ranks-off the membership role and my plate has been broken ...can I still sit down at the table? (I mean as long as I don't try to serve the Lord's supper or something?!)
Peace-Heather
:::posted by heather on 5/19/2003 11:21:37 PM
Okay, it's me again. I was thinking today about Sara Barton and that she had posted here. I wanted to say welcome. I wish we had more time together while in Pepperdine. Isn't that how it always is? For those of you weren't at Zoe last year in Nashville, Sara was magnificent!!! She was the perfect person to speak at that moment in time. Whoever asked her to speak was allowing the Spirit to guide them. Thank you for your words and your gentleness.
I don't know if any of us addressed your concerns. I know how it feels to have those that you love and respect turn on you when they find out that you hold differing views. Time softens those wounds. They are still visible but not nearly as painful as when they were fresh.
My father-in-law passed away last October. He was a good man with a big heart. He was forward thinking but was afraid of what others would think. He hated conflict and wanted only to be loved and to love others. But there were moments in his life that he couldn't avoid that conflict. He was an elder in a congregation that had some very progressive members and some very conservative ones. Obviously there was friction. Several years ago my father-in-law had a stroke. So many people came to see him in the hospital and sent cards and gifts and food to my mother-in-law. One day my husband and I were visiting him in the hospital and an old friend from that congregation came to visit him. This man and my father-in-law were continually on opposite sides of the fence when it came to church issues but as this man was leaving he started to cry. He asked my father-in-law if they could pray together before he left. We all prayed while holding hands. When it was over the friend looked my father-in-law in the eye and said, "You are my brother. We may have disagreed on many things but you are my brother. I love you."
Time does soften so many things. But it also magnifies what is important. We are family...blood family. We serve Jesus. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/16/2003 04:49:08 PM
I read back over my last post and I think that maybe I should clarify something or possibly muddy the waters more.
I do believe that our worship of scripture has brought us to a troubling place. What is scripture and how do we define inspiration?
Basing our faith on the scriptures as we know them is troubling in and of itself...where does the risen Savior fit in that picture?
Just some thoughts...grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/15/2003 09:26:24 PM
Vicki, I didn't notice anyone in particular who I thought had changed their thinking from a new vision back to the old. I think that we may feel that kind of backlash for awhile...fear is involved. You know that once you change your thinking about one thing...it opens up a whole new world...the rest of our interpretation of scripture comes into question and that is truly scary...if scripture is the true basis for your faith. I have even heard friends ask, "If women can do all the things that men can do in church, then what other things are we doing wrong and where does it stop?"
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/15/2003 08:37:40 PM
There's a new resource link on the site:
Women, Gifts, and the Body of Christ, a three-part lecture series by Mike Cope and Sara Barton delivered at the 2002 Zoe Conference. (Free registration required.)
:::posted by Lance on 5/15/2003 04:00:41 PM
And I thought MY dreams were vivid technicolor, Julie! 20 children? You are Wonder Woman!
There may be validity in your own interpretation. It comes from your subconscious, after all. Does the head represent Christ, and the body the "old" CoC? If so, I can see why you would want to keep the body separate from the younger generations. And it seems the only way to do that, in your subconcious, is to sever the old body from the head. If we are all part of the body, we work together and influence each other. I have to agree that I do not want younger and future generations influenced by the old body. But ripping it off with your bare hands? Woo-hoo! You are one strong woman! I would have had to change my jammies after that dream/nightmare!
I heard from other sources that there seems to be a trend of those who were - I'm not sure of the right terminolgy to use here - leaning in a new direction? - were returning to some old ways of thinking and teaching. David sent me the list of speakers/topics from Pepperdine Lectures, and one name in particular jumped out at me who spoke at Tulsa and Pepperdine. At Tulsa, there was a change in his perspective from recent years. This return to old patterns has surprised and saddened me. This may be what you were speaking of. The sea is parting. And we feel so alone.
-v.
:::posted by Vicki on 5/15/2003 01:46:10 PM
Okay...for my next installment...the dream. I think I will tell you the dream first and then tell you my own interpretation...you may have your own...please share them with me.
My dream started with me in a house with lots of children...they were obviously mine and they were about 20 of them. In our house in the living room there was a wheeled vehicle that a murder had occurred in and it was covered with blood and there was blood on the carpet. I asked the children to help me move it out of the house....they did but there were still stains on the carpet. I couldn't remove them. The next scene I was outside with all the children. It was a beautiful day and we were having a great time playing in the sun. A man approached us with a gun and made us move in groups to inside the house. A preteen girl was standing beside me and I begged her to run for her life to the neighbors but I was afraid that the man would come outside again and shoot her. She ran. The next scene I remember the man with the gun was herding us all into the bathroom. When I got to where he was there was a railing between us and he started shouting at me...calling me terrible names and telling lies about me. There was a washcloth on the railing and I pulled it down and stuffed it in the man's mouth. Suddenly I was very big and he was very small. I reached down and took his body in one hand and his head in the other and pulled his head off. I was desperately holding on to the head and the body...afraid that if I let go his body and head would be reunited. Help came and I was still afraid to let go.
I had been to Katie's class the day before and was lifted from the experience and then went to the fieldhouse for a keynote presentation. The fieldhouse felt like so much of the old stuff and made me feel stifled. It was the first time for awhile that I had felt all that old stuff so intensely. I think my dream is saying that I feel protective of the next generation but that I am trying to hold too many things together on my own. The dream was so violent and I felt terrible and afraid when I woke up. Luckily it was 3 in the morning California time and was 6 in the morning east coast time, so Ann woke up around the same time and we were able to talk through it together before attempting to fall back to sleep.
What do you think? There is so much there, that I could pull it apart image by image.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/14/2003 09:12:23 PM
Thanks, David. I sent you an email (and updated my own!). -v.
:::posted by Vicki on 5/14/2003 08:36:19 PM
Julie, it was great for us to meet you too. Thanks for the kind words. I look forward to worshiping with you some day.
Vicki, I have a blank copy of Gaylor's order form. If you like, I can fax one to you. Send me a line off-list (click "Team" for the address).
:::posted by Fritz on 5/14/2003 06:30:25 PM
Thanks for the info, Katie. I had already sent GM an email. Maybe I will hear something back shortly.
Can't wait to her the rest of your story, Julie. I'm LOL amid more tears! Laughing because I may be more lost than I thought (not my soul - God has that one locked up tightly for me), and crying because D'Esta remembered. I always think of myself as being too small to be remembered, too insignificant to be noticed. While at ElderLink a man who sat at our table jumped up from his seat, put his arms around my husband and I, and prayed over us. He said he didn't know why, but he felt like it was something he was supposed to do. (Thank you, Frank!) The firing took place 4 days after ElderLink. How badly we needed that weekend to bolster us for the next step in our journey!
While we have been set free from those chains that bound, the work has been difficult. A little more simply and accurately put - the work has been work, and people have been people. What else could we expect?
As the words to my "battle song" say:
Onward we go,
To where we don't know...
[only God knows - and He isn't telling!]
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 5/14/2003 12:21:58 AM
Okay, it's me again...I told you that you wouldn't be able to shut me up once I started. I had to tell you that I also got to meet David and Maureen Fritz. David has posted here and goes to church with Katie and Lance. The two of you felt so comfortable to be with and I wanted the opportunity to be with you more. I could tell that you were Katie's church family. You are both so kind and down to earth...I could tell that I would love your church family. I also met Methel on the plane from BWI...we were all standing in line to board and were talking about Pepperdine with some other people that we had met who were also standing in line and she came up and introduced herself....neat lady! I will just have to come up to Long Island and go to church sometime. I feel like I know all of you. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/13/2003 10:46:04 PM
Vicki, I told you that I still have so much to say...part of it has to do with you. In my conversation with D'Esta, she mentioned Elderlink and that a woman had talked about her article and had made copies and had to leave her church...I asked if it was Vicki and she said ...yes, how did you know?... We are all connected, aren't we? I felt so alone in this struggle for so long...Ann and I trudging along and now I realize that there is a whole family out there feeling the same way. My heart hurt all over for you as D'Esta told me how you had cried while she spoke. I have been there so many times when others voice how I have been feeling and I thought I was in a lonesome place.
Some of my experience at Pepperdine is connected to my story and I have seriously thought about sharing it here. Maybe later this week when I have a little more courage. I will have to tell you guys about my dream that I had while at Pepperdine...actually nightmare. I know that it had to do with the church and where we have been and where we are going and what role I play in that.
Vicki, you are a long lost relative and you can write anytime. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/13/2003 10:14:27 PM
The Pepperdine website sent me to www.gayloronline.com to order tapes from the 2003 lectures, but only the 2002 lectures seems to be available there. I imagine they simply haven't got the list up on the website yet. Try calling Gaylor; their numbers are on the site.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/13/2003 10:08:12 PM
Wow! Talk about a cup overflowing! Write more, Julie.
Ditto on D'Esta. Her story was the tool God placed in my hands when He booted me out of the nest and said, "Fly, daughter of Mine!" And then I got to meet her face to face at ElderLink (7 months later), and she hugged me for the longest time while I cried. And then I went to her sessions and cried some more. Her arms were a safe place to be, and her presence a safe place in which to weep. She heard, and answered, her calling. She has blessed my life.
A friend suggested Katie for keynote at Tulsa next year. The response was not what I had hoped it would be. But we will keep asking hard questions. We will keep asking "that" question (even if it means being fired), "Who Do You Say That I Am?"
Can you even imagine a 3:28 worship?!? It gives me chills!!
I've been trying to get the tapes of Dale Paul, but cannot find the right link, apparently. Help?
I feel like I've just written a letter to a far away relative! Didn't mean to. Sorry!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 5/13/2003 08:00:32 PM
I have been wanting to post here since I got back from Pepperdine. Katie, you were great!!! It was so good to finally meet you face to face. When you were done Sue leaned over to me and said, "That was just like listening to you." I think that is because we are on the same wavelength. I got you Katie...every step of the way. I was so torn about whether to go to D'Esta's class or your class that morning. D' Esta is my hero and has been for 20 years but I really wanted to support Katie. I had a chance to talk with D'Esta at length one on one and that was a highlight from the whole trip. She paved the way for so many of us...and her clear-cut faithful walk continued and she let Jesus hold her head up while she was walking that walk. When I first introduced myself to her, the emotions came quickly and I had to explain to her why. I felt honored to be in her presence. Katie, you also are paving the way for so many. Thank you for being so steadfast. Maybe soon some big conference will ask you to be a keynote speaker...they need to step out on the water and see what Jesus does. Hearts are turning. I feel it. The song that Zoe sang at one of Mike Cope's talk...may those who come behind us find us faithful...says so much. We have to keep searching and moving. God is never still.
I was so moved by all the elderly people that are at Pepperdine. They were nodding in agreement with Rubel and John. How exciting was that!? Even when they talked about women (briefly)...they were nodding and amening....is that a word? I appreciate so much that so many are willing to step out those limbs and let their faith lead them.
I felt like I couldn't hear everyone and felt overwhelmed emotionally. I missed Dale Pauls but will listen to his tapes. I really wanted to meet him. Maybe next year we could all do dinner together or maybe a worship session with just all of us gal328 family.
I have so much more that I want to say but I have dinner and meetings and kids to get different places....so I will be back...grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/13/2003 07:27:18 PM
Katie and Karin. Sounds like a dynamic duo! Women bringing the Good News on Mother's Day, 2003, in TWO churches of Christ. In my lifetime. Ain't God great? -Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 5/12/2003 05:17:37 PM
I am so excited to be able to post again. My computer has been down and then I wasn't able to get back here to post. This is just a test post. If it works I will come back and post Pepperdine experiences and more. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 5/12/2003 09:16:36 AM
Friends, tomorrow morning (Sunday, 5/11), there will be two women in two Church of Christ pulpits simultaneously. I'm preaching at West Islip, of course, and Karin Fallon will bring the word at the Stamford church in Connecticut. God is good. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/10/2003 02:34:52 PM
Hi, Sara. Having watched and listened to you on the Zoe Conference tapes via internet, I feel a little like I know you already. Welcome!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 5/08/2003 02:22:39 PM
Hi everyone. My name is Sara Barton. I work as a part-time campus minister at Rochester College, which is located in Rochester Hills, Michigan, just outside of Detroit. The college was formerly known as Michigan Christian College. It is affiliated with the Churches of Christ. My main job is to organize our daily chapel assembly. I also spend quite a lot of time with students. I have just completed my first school year at the college, and I am enjoying my job. I have been blessed immensely in my roles as a minister by the students and leadership of the college. I pray that I have blessed them even a fraction of how they have blessed me.
Before coming to Rochester, my husband and I were missionaries in East Africa for eight years. We have two children. Nate is 9. Brynn is 7.
I am thankful for this website. I've been reading it for a couple of years now, and I am encouraged to hear your views on gender justice in Churches of Christ. I struggle with the tension caused when my views and the roles I take part in do not mesh with views of friends and family members whom I love and respect. So, it's a blessing to read some of your thoughts and know there are others who share views similar to mine. God bless each of you.
-Sara
:::posted by sara on 5/07/2003 05:04:30 PM
Hi, Sara. It's good to hear from you, new friend! The folks who read here might be interested to hear who you are, what you do, if you're inclined to share. There are lots of friendly faces behind the voices on this forum, trust me.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/06/2003 09:34:58 PM
I ordered Dale Paul's tapes. Thanks for the information.
Blessings,
Sara
:::posted by sara on 5/06/2003 09:21:44 PM
Hi, friends --
A quick note from the Pepperdine Bible Lectures on the topic that this website addresses: all of you should order Dale Pauls' tapes from the Pepperdine U. website. His two talks were outstanding. He spoke on the procedure that the Stamford Church used to come to its position of full inclusion for women at every level of work, worship, and church leadership. Within that framework, he issued a clarion call to our fellowship to courageously step up to the issue and study it with dignity and humility. He offered no apologies, was not embarrassed in the least to say hard things to people who are used to having "hard news" softened until there's hardly any of it left. I wept during the entire second hour because his words sounded like the Emancipation Proclamation must have sounded coming from Abe Lincoln's mouth. "For freedom Christ has set us free!" And Dale truly makes that sound like the good news it is.
There were other lectures during the week that addressed the topic of gender in God, and I'll just say that they were not something I'd recommend to the readers of this forum. They did not celebrate, empower, enliven, or encourage.
It was so much fun to meet many of you at the lectures and I can't wait to do it again next year. The openness that is being cultivated at Pepperdine makes a welcoming environment for us. God is good.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 5/06/2003 10:59:07 AM
Kirk,
Since I am CoC, I usually don't hear the question stated quite that way. What I usually hear from people who have heard about my views through someone else is "I heard you think that females should be deacons and be allowed to lead prayer in worship. Why do you believe that!?" My first answer is generally "Well, that's not exactly true." I usually get a change of facial expression when I say that (relief :>) ). I then add: " I believe they should be in all areas of church and worship." I get a change of facial expression alot of times here, also :>) That's when I ask them: "Don't you believe that also?" If I can get them to respond and desire to discuss it just a little, I can usually eventually get them to say something like "Hmmm, I think I need to think about this a little. I may have some more questions later! Can you recommend any study resources I can read?" Betcha you can't guess where I recommend they look first? :>)
Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 5/05/2003 08:49:54 AM
Hello, folks...
As some of you know, I come from a CoC background but currently hold membership in a UCC congregation served by a woman minister.
This afternoon, while visiting with some CoC folks discussing our different Sunday morning experiences, someone asked me, "How does your church justify having women preachers?" (My mental reply was, "How does your church justify not allowing women to preach?") To be polite, the only words I could conjure up were that women ministers are quite common in the UCC today with a history going back into the 19th Century roots of our fellowship. However, somehow I feel my response was less than fulfilling.
Do any of you have a "10-second" reply I could keep on file for future use? I'd like to say something that is faithful and perhaps even clever, but not preachy. Any ideas?
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 5/05/2003 04:27:32 AM
Greetings to all. I have been keeping a low profile both at home and away from home regarding gender justice. Probably the most honest reason is because I seem to cry when I allow this discussion back into my mind. I feel so vulnerable and exposed in the presence of discussions about the church and the view of women. I know none of you personally, but trust me, being "weepy" is atypical. This vulnerability is most likely the reason I try to stay in "cognitive" mode and read more than I act.
With that said, I was also at the Pepperdine Lectureship this past week. I heard Dale Pauls speak about the process of gender justice at Stamford Elm. I know that I was in a room full of like-minded people, including Katie Hays. And yet, I keep my distance. Why? (I ask myself this question many times!) Here is the only answer I have come to at this point: The more I think about it, talk about it and, feel the pain of it, THEN.... the more discontent I become with my church home. I try to talk myself into contentment. "At least my church allows women to __________." (Which is true!) But the word "allows" really peeves me! Grrrr And my discontentment grows. I feel like a moth to the flame.
Friday evening during the closing event, Mike Cope's father prayed prior to Mike's sermon. I found my mind wondering during the prayer, "What would a mother's prayer sound like?" And, the weepiness began again.....Then I asked myself, "If I someday have a daughter-in-law or a granddaughter who wants preach or pray, am I prepared to ask for their forgiveness for the sin of neglect? Am I prepared to tell them that I stayed silent because I felt scared?"
I truly do not know if I have it in me to do anything meaningful with this. It seems too big. My church is too big. The obstacles are too big.
An old joke just came to mind. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 5/04/2003 04:41:38 PM
I am so excited to see the board moving again!
Patty, you've been so heavily on my mind & heart, and I haven't been here for a while, (It was so quiet). I've missed emailing with you and need to send you an update on our minister search.
I have to say that I, like Willy, do talk about it, (my husband says I talk about it WAY too much) but I have to know who I'm talking to, the are ceratin things that can be said to see "if the waters warm" and I know you know that. I have given myself away a few times with out meaning to (saying AMEN at just the right time in public assembly) our interum minister mentionied to me that he knew where I stood on the "women issue" and thanked me for not being bitter (weird, huh?) from an AMEN.
Blessing to you all, good to see posting here again!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 5/01/2003 07:55:11 PM
Greetings from Michigan! I have been a "lurker" on this site since its beginning, having been a former roommate (and still good friend) of Rick Bohannon's. I've never felt compelled to post anything until now...for two reasons. First, the current thread of conversation particularly interests me, and second (more importantly), it particularly interests me as it relates to the church family where my wife and I are members (Troy Church of Christ, Troy, Michigan...a church of about 140 in the suburbs of Detroit).
For the past 20 or so years, Troy has had what many have described as a "liturgical" worship service. We have a group called the Celebration Singers who sing on Christmas and Easter. We have a Christmas Eve service, and we have also recognized the traditions of Advent and Lent in our services with candlelighting, etc. Troy has also been a church that's been "under the radar screen" for gender equity...in 1975-76, the elders conducted a study of the issue, and since those years the church has been amenable to women teaching classes, serving on leadership committees, serving communion, singing solos, etc. (Indeed, just last night the devotional was led by a very gifted woman, and her daughter led singing) However "progressive" on the gender issue Troy may seem, though, its worship style was hardly the "progressive" (my friends at Harding called it "happy clappy") style that's so prevalent in suburban megachurches in the South.
But Troy is undergoing changes (again). Currently, our pulpit minister position is open, and with this period of transition the elders have decided that now is the time to charge forward on other issues as well. During the past 20 years, Troy's inclusion of women has not always been constant (ie, women might publicly participate only now and then). However, the church elders now seem led to lay down the gauntlet, so to speak, and remove the ambiguity in gender equity at Troy...thankfully, the document drafted by the church leadership seeks to "eliminate the barriers between Wednesday night and Sunday morning, sanctuary and fellowship hall, etc." However...and this is where this discussion of worship styles is so relevant...the leadership is also officially moderating its stance on Acappella-only worship. We plan to keep acappella as the standard, but the church will now be open to instrumental services. Along with it, our worship services have become much more expressive and contemporary and less liturgicial. This is what I find most ironic...a church that has long been on the maverick side for the Detroit area is only now embracing a more "contemporary" worship style. I think it will be very interesting to see how it plays out here! I'm a little sad to see the departure from the high church liturgy, but I also recognize that many preferences within the church family should be recognized...and these changes could be very good for the church family.
So sorry to write so much! My wife is a political scientist who studies women and gender, and she's said more than once that a religious ethnography should be conducted on churches who migrate to gender equity and the subsequent ramification and effects on worship styles. Maybe Brent can look into that! :)
James
:::posted by J on 5/01/2003 10:15:28 AM
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