The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Shelly,
That is a topic that comes up often in our congregation and I think that is at least partly why I have been thinking about it. I think the conclusion I am comming to is that we shouldn't necessarily place ourselves in places of weakness but rather be willing to do whatever is before us to do and let God make up the difference if it is an area of weakness. Not run away from areas we are weak in necessarily either.
Patty
BTW -Glad the sermon was excellent
:::posted by Patty on 3/31/2003 05:06:04 PM
Patty,
I thought of you yesterday, for several reasons, but mainly because our sermon (which, BTW was EXCELLENT) was about using our weakness(es). He pointed out that by using our weakness it is God working through us and God's strength that is know. I am not sure how to apply this to your question. I'm sure the lesson was taped.
Peace,
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/31/2003 08:31:45 AM
Patty,
I picked up a book to read again, and when I came across this I thought of you. It’s from COURAGE AND CALLING, by Gordon T. Smith:
“We can understand the call of God in three distinct ways…
1. The general call: the invitation to follow Jesus, to be Christian
2. The specific call: a vocation that is unique to each person, an individual’s mission in the world
3. The immediate call: the tasks or duties to which God calls each person at the present time”
Specifically re: the immediate call:
“…there is the calling that we face each day in response to the multiple demands on our lives––our immediate duties and responsibilities: the call to be present…to respond to some… important need that comes before me. These are my tasks; they are not burdens, but are those things that are placed before me today by God. … I would not speak of these as my vocation––which would be closer to the second meaning of the call; nevertheless, these may be the duties and responsibilities to which God calls me today. But not all the immediate and legitimate needs that I face are necessarily my responsibility. I may be “overhearing” God’s call to another. the danger is always that these daily and immediate needs would crowd out our capacity to respond to our unique vocation.”
Does this fit into your struggle in any way?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/31/2003 12:48:14 AM
Patty and Shelly - SOMEbody has to be the mouth. Just imagine how quiet it would be w/o our 50,000 words/day!
(BTW, Shelly - DrPhil said that not having the control a choleric desires/needs can lead to frustration and anger.)
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/29/2003 12:52:56 PM
Jen- What a great prayer.
Shelly-lol.
Thank you everyone for your imput into this. It has really encouraged me.
-Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/29/2003 12:17:22 PM
Jen - I love the prayer. Thanks.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/29/2003 01:49:47 AM
Thought I'd share a prayer by Jacob Boehme, a German shoemaker who lived 1575-1624. I pray this every morning.
Give me, Dear Lord, a pure heart and a wise mind, that I may carry out my work according to your will. Save me from all false desires, from pride, greed, envy and anger, and let me accept joyfully every task you set before me. Let me seek to serve the poor, the sad, and those unable to work. Help me to discern honestly my own gifts, that I may do the things of which I am capable, and happily and humbly leave the rest to others. Above all, remind me constantly that I have nothing but what you give me, and can do nothing but what you enable me to do.
In light of the current question, isn't it interesting that the prayer includes "accept joyfully every task set before me" and "do the things of which I am capable, and happily and humbly leave the rest to others"? Perhaps, if God sets a task before you which lies outside your gifts, you should do it the best you can; but on your own initiative, seek to do those things you know you are capable of?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/28/2003 11:04:50 PM
V - Didn't I tell you not to use THAT word?! :o)
:::posted by Shelly on 3/28/2003 04:53:08 PM
C=choleric=control - more or less.
:::posted by Vicki on 3/28/2003 04:43:34 PM
Vic,
C..? Choleric, right? Doesn't that have to do with anger? Maybe I should ask Dr. Phil. I know right where it is, in the filing cabinet with our marriage certificate. It hasn't been that long since I looked at it.
I agree about too many heads! Usually too many mouths, too. You can add mine to that list can't you! (right, Patty!)
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/28/2003 04:35:49 PM
Hmmm...., Patty, sounds like shepherding to me…
Do those things for which you have a passion. You know how someone takes on a task they don't really want and the job seems to be half-done, or it gets left undone for someone else to take on at the last minute? That's because they took on something without the passion, or gift, or talent. There are plenty of fingers and toes and elbows and knees. (Too many heads, in my opinion.) If you want to be the mouth, go ahead! Every body needs one! : ) Right now, I just want to be the derriere. I'm tired.
SHELLY - Yes, that's the test you already took, and no, you don't need to take it again because temperament is how God made you in the beginning. It doesn't change. Your circumstances and response does, but not your basic being. Get out (find) your profile and read again what it says about issues of c...... : )
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/28/2003 04:21:08 PM
Patty,
A hand does not do the job of a foot very well, and vice-versa. But if a person loses a hand (or if it is not available to use) a foot will learn to do the hand's "work" to the best of it's ability.
I hope your feeling better!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/28/2003 03:32:25 PM
It isn't so much that I wonder where I am gifted. I wonder about my defining my role in the church by where I am gifted. I'm not gifted in many of the typical "female" roles. I don't do well with taking care of things behind the scenes. I'm not an organizer, a decorator or a cleaner. I'm not good at being consistant with the little acts of encouragement, sending cards, baking bread etc, that so many people, esp women do so well. I tend to say no when asked to do those sorts of things because I know from experience I will forget and leave someone hanging no matter what my best intentions are or how hard I try to keep up. My gifts are in the public things. I love getting in front and talking. I love teaching. I love singing. I love being called upon in the middle of the night for an emergency. I love helping people find solutions to their problems no matter what those problems are. Am I wrong to not voulenteer for those jobs that I'm just not good at? I hate setting up and cleaning up communion. I'm not sure why exactly but I have always hated it. I usually refuse to do it if at all possible (sometimes someone needs to do it and I'm the only choice I do it then). Should I try to cultivate those areas or just leave them to those who are more gifted in them? I am usually willing to do things when asked but it it is something I'm really not good at I will ask if I am a last resort or if perhaps someone else could do it.
I do appreciate the responces while I try to work through this issue.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/27/2003 04:08:24 PM
Vic - Nope, I'm gonna bury my head in the sand and pretend like "control" was never mentioned. I'm going to pretend like neither one of us ever has a problem in this area.
Do you know if any of those temperment tests are available online? Or is that the test I already took? If it is, would I need to take it again since that was 2+ years ago?
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/27/2003 03:29:57 PM
Shel - : )
Are you trying to ask something?
- V.
:::posted by Vicki on 3/27/2003 03:23:59 PM
Vic,
"Areas of control can be a major problem." Are you trying to say something?
S.
:::posted by Shelly on 3/26/2003 04:48:48 PM
Patty -
I do my best thinking when I run a fever. (Some call it delirium.) You?
I think the question is not only about using gifts, but also about being available, being called, and answering that call. We have to be free to do all.
Get well soon!
Vicki
(There are temperament tests available that can show where weaknesses and strengths lie, and how best to use them in service to God. It is possible to be gifted in an area, but use that gift innapropriately. Areas of control can be a major problem.)
:::posted by Vicki on 3/26/2003 04:15:47 PM
Patty,
So sorry that your sick! At least your home. My cousin preaches in Columbia, MO. his name is Eddie.
The candidate is in your area. I'm a little leary of posting the congregation or his name on the WWW. He might not appreciate it! :o) We have no idea how many people read this forum. You can email me if you's like at yellyshay_@excite.com. You might have some info that I would like to have!
Gifts? I've been looking at gifts-vs-weaknesses (a new twist to you dilemma) some lately myself. Someone on another site mentioned how someone who struggles with pride should stay out of high-profie ministries. I can see the problems that could arise, but what if that is where the persons gift(s) lie? What then?
I am feeling called to a particular part of Stephen Ministry, but that is ot where they want to use me. I was "voted" into another position, Continuing Ed Coordinator/Teacher. Not a position that appealed to me - kind of got my arm twisted into it, I tried it, and did a great job. Is this a gift that God wants me to use? I never thought of myself as a teacher (but I'm always writing sermons in my head) let alone someone who could stand up and lecture for an hour or more!
Better Run!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/26/2003 03:19:43 PM
Shelly,
Where in MO? I'm in the St. Louis area.
I'm curious about members takes on using our gifts vs. God using us in our weakness. I know it isn't a mutually exclusive thing but I am home sick today and thinking about this and trying to figure it out for myself. We talk a lot in gender justice about people working where they are gifted (and we usually mean born with that gift) no matter what their gender. At the same time if you look at the apostles most of them were not naturally gifted in leadership, public speaking etc and yet God transformed them into people who did just that. Many times in the NT we see people doing things that went against their natural gifts and God blessing them and the church through this. Other times we see people using their natural gifts. So I guess the question is, should the excuse that I am not gifted in a particular area be a legitimate excuse for not doing it or should I pursue those areas to allow God to work through me when obviously I can't do it on my own. (or some balance between these ideas). Or perhaps am I missing the point altogether.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/26/2003 01:04:28 PM
Patty, Julie,
I looked up his email address on the internet and sent him an email inviting him to our small group. He laughed at my "spying" method, and accepted! I am looking forward to meeting him. He preaches in MO, not far from my cousin, they know eachother (you know about all of the CofC connections) a good place to start our conversation.
Small group will be a great place to get acquainted. We are made up of 4 families, with at least 2 teens each. Women have full participation, we take turns leading lessons, prayers, etc. (we have one Elder in our group).
I did send an email to the Elders asking what the other venueswould be used to get to know him. I did get one reply (we have 9 Elders). This will be interesting.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings,
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/25/2003 01:59:53 PM
Interesting. I find the fact that the elders will decide on hiring him more disturbing than the mens prayer breakfast. (which I also find disturbing.) The church I grew up attending always decided on preaching candidates at a congregational meeting where everyone had imput. I don't think it was exactly a democratic process, more of a general concensus process. We did have elders, they just didn't think choosing a minister was in their job description. Working with him, and guiding him was, choosing him was not. I learn all the time just how unique my experiences growing up were. (and I thought we were a typical c of c).
Shelly, hang in there. Thankfully (for your elders) God doesn't decide on our entrance to heaven based on our fairness. I think you are right to be upset by this. I would be. At least you will get to know him at your small group. If you are anything like me that isn't enough though.
At least they acknowledge that getting to know his wife is also important. No matter what things are called married ministers are part of a ministry team. Their spouse will be either a help or a hinderance to their ministry. That isn't anything to be overlooked.
I hope that you get a satisfactory answer from your elders.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/24/2003 08:02:53 PM
Thanks Julie, I needed a little sympathy!
The Elders will have final say in who is hired, but they SAY that they want us ALL to get to know him some; more than just Sunday sermon.
The Elders (and families) will have dinner with his family on Friday, Saturday - breakfast with the men, the women to have lunch, then an all church pitch-in on Sunday afternoon. We invited him to our Saturday evening small group, too.
An Elder (that I don't know real well) said something to me about the Men's breakfast being to evaluate the preacher candidate, and my reaction was quick enough that I saw a little "shock" in his eyes, ("why do only the men get to meet and evaluate? Isn't that for ALL members?") He said that there would be different venues for evaluation. I need to know what they are. I think I'll send the Elders an email.
Thanks, Julie!
Shelly
S.
Not a lot of getting to know him.
:::posted by Shelly on 3/24/2003 03:40:52 PM
I would be mad too, Shelly. Can you make some suggestions about how it could be done differently? How are you deciding who is hired? Who gets input? Are the men deciding who you hire? the elders? Hang in there. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/24/2003 02:59:21 PM
Just when I think that we are making progress . . . We have a preacher candidate coming this weekend, and in order to "evaluate" they are having a "Men's Prayer Breakfast" (the women are to have a luncheon with his wife).
I'm about to bite my tongue OFF, had to vent
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 3/24/2003 11:22:07 AM
Brent and I and the other expats we know in China are glued to the TV. We have an English news station--CCTV International. So far we haven't noticed any big change in people's attitudes toward us personally, but we are fielding a lot of questions about the war. Blunt questions like, "why is Bush attacking Iraq?"--as if we're big buddies and just finished a midnight overseas chat on the phone with him or something. Our opinion about the war seems to be the minority stance in our little group. I am more comfortable talking about the war with curious Chinese than with other Americans. We are asked things, of course, as representative Americans. And I think (unfortunately) most people respond purely as Americans. I prefer to say, as a Christian my belief is that all war is evil.
Of course, that glosses over the fact that many Christians hold to a just war belief. But I think the Chinese are getting plenty of answers that reflect that trend of thought, and all I can do is answer honestly for myself anyway.
I am pondering the possibility of making a sign and staging a one-woman Americans for Peace sit-in at a shopping plaza down the street from us. It's against the law to demonstrate in China without gov't permission, but I'm not sure a single foreigner would really count. And I feel the need to do something to declare my feelings on the matter--in a way that won't start a big snarly political argument over Sunday lunch.
I don't want to start an argument here, either. But the truth is, a great deal of my anxiety about the war stems not from fears of the war itself, but from the fact that my outlook differs radically from most American Christians I know here in China. It's hard when you have to tread so carefully around your family.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/20/2003 09:20:05 PM
I just had to post and ask how everyone is doing. Are you feeling stressed and afraid? Are you worried about the future? Is the war making you nervous and jumpy and supicious? How should we deal with this as Christians? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/20/2003 07:50:17 PM
Congratulations to Joe and Laura! I think Sophia is a lovely name. In fact, I've given a couple students the name Sophia for their English name this year. I love explaining the meaning.
Mary Lou, the Hutsons that I know here in China are CoC and from TN as well. Paris, TN, I think, and Daniel graduated from Freed Hardeman. Long lost cousin, maybe?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/18/2003 08:11:21 PM
Congradulations Joe and Laura!!! Sophia sure wanted to be born on a holiday! lol. Welcome Sophia! I hope you like the color green.
-Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/17/2003 06:46:11 PM
Congratulations Joe and Laura!!!! You are just beginning an exciting ride. My prayer for Sophia is that she knows Jesus deeply and that by the time she is grown up she won't know that women ever were restricted in the church of Christ. She won't believe the stories that we tell because gender justice will be the norm. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/17/2003 08:26:22 AM
Laura Hays gave birth to Sophia Kay Hays at 5 a.m. on 3/17. It was a long labor, so Laura is exhausted, but the baby is healthy, 8 lbs. 8 oz. God is good. Joe Hays, Laura's husband, is the forum manager for www.gal328.org. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 3/17/2003 08:05:36 AM
I go to church with Joe's parents-in-law and heard this morning that is wife went into labor last night. I'm sure they will all appreciate our prayers for a safe and healthy delivery (if it hasn't happened yet)
And Congradulations to Joe (and esp Laura) when you are able to find your way back here. We can't wait to hear!
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/16/2003 03:32:04 PM
This was in my mailbox and I wanted to share it with you;
"There are people who put their dreams in a little box and say, "Yes, I've got dreams, of course I've got dreams." Then they put the box away and bring it out once in a while to look in it, and yep, they're still there. These are great dreams, but they never even get out of the box. It takes an uncommon amount of guts to put your dreams on the line, to hold them up and say, "How good or how bad am I?" That's where courage comes in." -- Erma Bombeck
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/16/2003 10:16:22 AM
Joy! I found my album. (hiding right next to my computer no less. LOL) And it has the Wood Song on it. I listened with new ears to it tonight. It is on Swamp Ophelia for those who would like to hear it.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/15/2003 11:52:25 PM
Hello everyone,
I haven't been in the forum in a while, things have been busy. Thanks for the encouraging words on my article, I appreciate that. Jen, as far as I know, Chris is not related to anyone living in China (but who knows)--are they CofC and if so, are they from Tennessee? If they are then there might be a connection somewhere.
I see several recent posts struggling with the question of whether to leave or stay. I have struggled with this myself. There's a part of me that says, these people are nice people and they are happy with their faith, and all I am doing is making them have doubt--maybe I would be happier, and they would too, if I would move on. Then there's another part of me that says, you know, this is as much my church as it is theirs. Our tradition is founded on the idea of individual interpretation (and some other ideas that I find useful, that other traditions are not so strong on). And--here's a shocker--it's really not all about my happiness, or how comfortable I feel. Maybe my role in this is to be one of the gadflies. That's a role that may result in getting swatted from time to time, but it can also lead to change.
When I was a little girl, my mother prayed that I would grow up and marry a gospel preacher. At the same time, my husband's mother was praying that her sons would grow up to marry fine Christian women. It is the unwavering faith of these two women, and others like them, that has sustained me. Would I not disregard their contributions if I left now?
I don't know what is best for each of you. I would be happier, I think, in a congregatio that practiced gender justice. I know that times and circumstances change, and what is tolerable for one person may be entirely intolerable for someone else. I do not judge your choices. But as for me, this is my home.
--Mary Lou Hutson
Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Mary Lou on 3/14/2003 08:28:20 PM
I think meeting up at Brookline is a great idea. Especially since it only takes me five minutes to get there.
:::posted by Indie on 3/13/2003 04:40:35 PM
Ugh! I now have a craving to hear the Indigo Girls and can't find my album anywhere! Thanks a lot! LOL
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/13/2003 04:13:40 PM
Thanks Julie, I love the Indigo Girls. You brought back some good memories with that song.
:-)
Everyone-I haven't posted much here lately but you have no idea how much this group means to me. Keep it up.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 3/13/2003 03:38:13 PM
There is another song from the Indigo Girls that also fits our gender justice journey...Go, Go, Go! Ann and I have sung this song for inspiration many times...
Through the dust bowl
Through the debt
Grandma was a suffragette
Blacklisted for her publication
Blacklisted for my generation
Raise your hands
Raise your hands high
Don't take a seat
Don't stand aside
This time don't assume anything
Just go go go
Feed the fire
Fan the flame
I know you kids can stand the rain
I know the kids are still upsetters
Cause rock is cool but the struggle is better
Go go go
Raise your hands
Raise your hands high
Don't take a seat
Don't stand aside
This time don't assume anything
Just go go go
Did they tell you it was set in stone
That you'd end up alone
Use your years to psyche you out
You're too old to care
You're too young to count
Did they tell you, you would come undone
When you try to touch the sun
Undermine the underground
You're too old to care
You're too young to count
Go go go
Pretty powerful, huh? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/12/2003 11:13:59 PM
Julie, I haven't heard the song you mentioned...most of my stuff of theirs is pretty old school, Closer to Fine, Power of Two, Swamp Ophelia stuff. I'd love to get together with you and worship one of these days. We had some great singing last night with some ACU students here on spring break. Everyone is welcome to come up to Brookline anytime, and everyone can participate, even Indie's baby. :) I have to tell you all that it's pretty amazing to hear a soon-to-be mother blessing the bread and the cup, for she knows the meaning of the words "this is my body, and this is my blood" in a way I can only hint at.
blessings,
chad
boston, ma
:::posted by Chad on 3/12/2003 10:15:30 PM
Chad, I knew that we had a connection...I always nod in agreement when I read what you have written and now with the Indigo Girls fan thing...I, too, have loved them for a long time...they are my favorites. Have you heard the hidden song at the end of Come On Now Social? Let Me Tell You Why the Church Has Died. Their songs have moved me on in life and have sometimes been pivotal on my journey.
We really should all get together...Maybe a little Gal328 seminar and worship...We could do it at the Brookline church since they were our pioneers. Wouldn't it be awesome to meet each other and worship together?
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/12/2003 09:19:31 PM
Carmen,
As a long-time fan of the Indigo Girls, I would say that it depends upon what you mean by "Christian." I personally find them to be more biblically-inspired than most stuff that would be marketed under the guise of Christian music. They've encountered a lot of hostility from some "Christian" circles due to their openness regarding their sexual orientation; even so, one of the pair is a daughter of a liturgy professor at Emory's Candler School of Theology and she also studied philosophy of religion. So their stuff often wrestles with very biblical themes, and the music is, well, just heavenly, I think. Good medicine for the spirit.
Blessings,
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 3/12/2003 04:54:51 PM
Thanks, Julie! – I can sure relate to that "bruising our brains" part. It has a strong biblical-prophetic tone. Is this a Christian group?
:::posted by Carmen on 3/12/2003 10:22:12 AM
The words to the wood song by the indigo girls....
the thin horizon of a plan is almost clear
my friends and i have had a tough time
bruising our brains
hard up against change
all the old dogs and the magician
now i see we're in the boat in two by twos
only the heart we have for a tool we could use
and the very close quarters are hard to get used to
love weighs the hull down with its weight
but the wood is tired and the wood is old
and we'll make it fine if the weather holds
but if the weather holds then we'll have missed point
that's where i need to go
no way construction of this tricky plan
was built by other than a greater hand
with a love that passes all our understanding
watching closely over the journey
yeah but what it takes to cross the great divide
seems more than all the courage i can muster up inside
but we get to have some answers when we reach the other side
the prize is always worth the rocky ride
but the wood is tired and the wood is old
and we'll make it fine if the weather holds
but if the weather holds we'll have missed the point
that's where i need to go
sometimes i ask to sneak a closer look
skip to the final chapter of the book
and maybe steer us clear of some of the pain it took
to get us where we are this far
but the question drowns in its futility
and even i have got to laugh at me
cause no one gets to miss the storm of what will be
just holding on for the ride
the wood is tired and the wood is old
and we'll make it fine if the weather holds
but if the weather holds then we'll have missed the point
that's where i need to go
...what do you think? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/11/2003 11:22:32 PM
Joe and Indie,
May God bless both of you as you raise your new babies. As a new grandfather (Jan 22) of a beautiful granddaughter by my oldest daughter (27), at least I can share some of the excitement with you as new lives come into the world.
I became a Christian at a time when this discussion could not have even been thought of. I raised my daughters in a traditional/ultra conservative church environment (the closest church with the least problems). During that time I drilled it into my daughters that they should try anything they felt they were capable of doing and not let anyone-man or woman- tell them they couldn't do it just because they were females. My oldest daughter showed special qualities and interest very early on in Christian service and I knew what she would be up against, but I continued to tell her to do what she felt called to do. She is now in Childrens Ministry in Grand Prairie and holds a Masters in Christian Education (childrens ministry) from ACU. She has recently found out that the IRS does not consider her a minister even though her conservative elders do! That may end up in a court fight because of the precedent it could set for all specialized ministers (especially female Childrens ministers) who wish to claim tax advantages from the IRS. She hasn't decided yet but has told us that she will be talking to ACU and considering her options. The church she works for is swinging to a more conservative position presently (change in leadership) and she has gone through some trials there but they want her there. It is a church that has just barely stepped into letting a female be called a minister. My youngest daughters (twins) are taking different directions in life from their sister. My oldest twin is more conservative than her sisters and is more comfortable with not pushing the envelope. My youngest just doesn't have a problem with pushing at all! What Linda and I did was to support our daughters in everything they wanted to try, regardless of what others said. We never told them they couldn't do something just because some one else said it couldn't be done and didn't have a problem with them challenging the status quo when they felt it necessary.
I hope your children give you as much joy as my three girls have given their mother and me.
Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 3/11/2003 03:15:32 PM
Joe,
I indentify with your struggle because my first child is due in less than a month. I know that no church is perfect and, as Carmen said, no child is going to be born into a world that will live up to our standards for our children. It seems to me that, for all its imperfections, the church should be a haven from the world rather than the world being a haven from the church. Unfortunately, in my lifetime, my experience has been that the latter is more true. I'm currently attending a Church of Christ that practices gender justice but when we leave, we will go to the best church that we can find, regardless of the name on the sign. My husband's family has been in the Church of Christ nearly as long as it has existed. Our daughter (assuming the ultrasound technition is correct) would have been a sixth or seventh generation Church of Christer. If there were no other alternatives, I might stay and try to teach her the truth without the sanction of the church but there are alternatives and so I will leave. A few weeks ago, as I was in front of the congregation, saying the communion prayer, holding the bread over my big belly, I realized that my daughter was participating in something that up until this year I had not been allowed to participate in soley because of my gender. And I knew at that moment that I couldn't add any more blocks to her faith than she will inevitably be encountering. I know that it is much more difficult when you are in the ministry. You can't just go somewhere else. God bless you as you await the birth of your child.
Indie
:::posted by Indie on 3/11/2003 12:50:24 PM
Joe,
What a good parent you are! I loved that time of planning for the arrival of my child! But the world was just not good enough. We would have torn the world apart and restructured it with our bare hands for our child if it were only a matter of muscle and sweat. Unfortunately, blood and tears are also necessary to redeem a world and make it fit for innocence. The blood is provided in the abundance of our sacred Birthright ... but the tears we shed before we learn to access that abundance is the most formidable obstacle ... and the tears and pain of generations of injustice to women cannot be shed lightly and to have any lasting effect on society must be approached in community. So, my child was born into a revolution, as yours will be. You will need to equip her/him to recognise the outrageous ethics of Jesus ... and that the paradoxes on which his life and teachings are based is a scandal to common sense ... and to see how the community of Jesus' followers themselves avoid the teachings by turning them -- imperceptibly to most -- into platitudes making ourselves an obstacle rather than a conduit of grace. It's a tall order for a new Christian parent -- and I don't mean to discourage you -- but you are in a good position to impress on your newcomer by opening her/his eyes to Jesus by modeling his unsensible grace in your own perfect little world at home ;) What joy! You will be in my prayers.
Julie,
I don't know the song. If it is not too much trouble, I would love to see the lyrics!
:::posted by Carmen on 3/11/2003 11:47:44 AM
As my wife and I await the arrival of our firstborn, I'm consumed with many thoughts. However, the questions that most often creep into the crevices of my mind and heart are "how will my child view and know God? How will my child view and know the church? How will my child view and know his/her spiritual gifts?"
I'm about to finish my second full year of ministry at a church that does not practice gender justice. Because it is an "inner-city" church that depends on funding from area churches of Christ, the church will not venture into unfamiliar territory such as a discussion on gender justice due to our need for these other churches to financially support us. Most in the church know where my wife and I stand on the issue and most are sympathetic, but again, the fear of not being able to pay bills, taxes and salaries frightens the church. So, for two years my wife and I have compromised our beliefs.
Now, we have this "other" entering into the world and if we take seriously the Deuteronomical law that we are to be examples and teachers of the Word to our children then we have a duty to teach and live out the truth to our children. My question and qualm is this, "is it enough to teach gender justice at home while not seeing it in action on Sunday, etc.?" We've had friends say to us, "can't you just model it in your marriage and talk about it in the home? Isn't that enough?"
Most newlywed couples are given the old adage in pre-marital counseling that "saying 'I love you' is not enough, one must show it as well." That is my struggle. If we have a boy, will he realize that he might be gifted to work in the nursery or participate in a children's Bible hour or cook a meal for a shut-in or a teach an elementary Bible class? If we have a girl, will she realize that she might be gifted to preach, teach an adult Bible study, lead us in a communion devotional, say a prayer or be an elder? Is it enough to just talk about that stuff at home but not see it lived out in the church?
What will our child think of God, of the church and of his/her spiritual gifts? These questions consume me these days! We've talked briefly about this before, but for my feeble mind's sake, I would love to get your feedback...especially from those of you who raised and/or raising children in churches that don't practice gender justice.
Joe
Ft. Worth, TX
:::posted by jch on 3/11/2003 09:10:54 AM
Carmen, I used to feel that the only way to deal with gender justice in the church was to leave and even fantasized about that on many ocassions. Now after having been through the journey (I know that it isn't over yet), it is worth it. I am only saying this from my personal experience and can't say that it will be the same for everyone. Do you know that Indigo Girls song...The Wood Song? The words fit this so well. If you don't know it I will find my words and type them out to all of you. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/10/2003 11:14:05 PM
Mary Lou,
Thanks for that article. You remind me that flaws can run so deep that they actually provide an opening.
While I would never encourage gender discrimination in the church, sometimes women who find themselves "outside the camp" are led to discover "the church without walls." When one is left with no alternative but to minister in the world, the church is redefined and the perimeters become blurry and ultimately fade out of view:
"this too belongs to perfection, that a man so undertakes works, that all his works fuse into one work. This must be done 'in the Kingdom of God.' For I tell you the truth: all works which man does outside of the Kingdom of God are dead, but those which he does in the Kingdom of God are alive ... just as God is not distracted or changed by any of his works, nor, too, is the soul so long as she works according to the law of God's kingdom. Such men, therefore, may do works or do them not, but remain all the while undisturbed. For works neither give them anything or take anything from them. In the Kingdom of God – ; – all works are equal there, my smallest is my greatest, my greatest as my smallest. – About works in themselves there is something divisive which causes a division in the souls of men, and brings them to the brink of disquiet." (Meister Eckhart, quoted by Dag Hammerskjold in "Markings")
Lately, the gender-justice air has been thickening. My husband wants to spare me the pain and move us to the Disciples of Christ. I'm laboring in prayer over that decision. Leaving has a hopeless feel about it, and I would really hate to walk out on 30+ years worth of friends. I don't feel the need to make new friends right now. I feel the need to bring my old friends up to date on what is happening in my heart, soul and mind in regards to gender discrimination in the church. But if I talk to my church friends, it will be percieved as "trouble making" (and I have to honestly say that it appears to me that I am the only one who thinks that anything is wrong) so I restrict my communication to the leaders through email. The response is the usual. The elders place the burden of communication on the salaried staff -- the preacher -- who is more concerned with my low level of involvement at church than in anything I have to say -- And would'nt it be dishonest to serve for the purpose of gaining influence? Political machinations are just not my style -- Anyway, personal history has demonstrated that my ability to engage the leadership in any kind of discussion about gender-justice has nothing to do with my level of involvement. Involvement only provides something to take away. So, I find that it is much easier and more spiritually rewarding to serve in the Kingdom of God outside the perimeters of "church involvement." True, I don't get respect or recognition among most of my church family for my work in the Kingdom of God. But the cost to work "inside" is just too high.
So thank you for your thoughts. I continue to read here to confirm that something is, indeed, very wrong -- that it isn't "just me." I need that clarity right now -- that collective "we."
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 3/10/2003 02:16:00 AM
Mary Lou,
Thanks for so eloquently expressing what I've so often thought during our Sundays here in Changsha. Thanks for pointing out that it's not normal to handicap ourselves by keeping competent and talented people from serving.
Also, I've been meaning to ask: are you related to a Daniel Hutson? He and his wife Diana (Chinese) live across the river from us here in Changsha.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/08/2003 02:08:38 AM
Sue,
Welcome and thanks so much for sharing.
Re: Julie's Sunday moment, you said, "It felt so normal and natural." YES!!!! I know that feeling!
Will you be one who particpates?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/07/2003 11:30:46 AM
Thanks, Sue...you should post more often.
My husband pointed out that perhaps it was a little rash and unwise for me to put something out on the internet when I'm not supposed to know anything about it. I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I've edited that part of my last post out. Sorry if there's any confusion from that.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/07/2003 12:29:06 AM
Lance and Katie,
One thing I forgot to say about last Sunday. We had a visitor, a young woman who had driven a little further than most to visit our congregation. She seemed to enjoy it and when asked way she came so far she said she had seen our congregation listed on the gal328 website and came to check us out. that was cool. thought you'd like to know.
Thanks
:::posted by Sue on 3/06/2003 10:17:01 PM
Hi everyone,
I have been a quiet listener for some time now, with only one post in the past. You are all so encouraging and so interesting. I feel a little intimidated in joining a discussion of people who think and feel so deeply. But I feel like sharing some of our recent journey here in Bowie. Jen's comments about her parent's congregation inspire me to share.
Last Sunday Julie read the scripture just before the sermon. She read well. Her knowledge and love for God's word were evident. There was very little comment about her reading. It felt so normal and natural. At the same time it was so very remarkable! A woman never had been allowed to speak from the pulpit before. We have had women quietly serving the communion for a couple of months and now the time has finally come. Women are joining the list of those may stand in the pulpit and help to lead worship. My granddaughters can dream of becoming ministers if that is their calling. Praise God!
Jen's comments about the problems in dealing with the " women's issue" in many ways remind me of the long struggle we have gone through. Much of it was very painful and unhealthy. One of the elders first reactions after we began this study was to prohibit many freedoms we had previously been given without much thought or discussion. All of a sudden everything was restricted and banned. Chain prayers in our Wednesday night services were stopped so a woman would not pray. When Julie read a scripture during an announcement she had been asked to make about VBS people get up and left in a rage. The elders were afraid to allow any participation by women for fear of a negative reaction. When talking to the elders in private they would say they did believe the scriptures permitted more participation by women, but they were "uncomfortable" about making any changes. "Comfort levels" became more important than what scripture was telling them. It has been a very painful journey. Many people left. Some because they believed that women should be more restricted in church participation, some because they believed women should have more freedom in worship, but most left because the long period of confusion and struggle was too painful. The joy of sharing the good news that God loves us and sent Jesus to save us was hard to share in our divided little congregation.
Life in our little church is much better now. A year ago I wasn't sure we could stay here. Just one year ago my husband felt compelled to resign as an elder because of the long period of strife. Our minister had resigned because the friction had become intolerable. Shortly after that our 2 remaining elders were asked to resign and did so. Life has been stormy. But God is good. He is still in control. The Spirit is coming back to our congregation. We are talking to one another and really beginning to listen to one another and to God's word. We have a new minister who is helping us to heal. His view is that of an egalitarian
I think my daughters and granddaughters really may be ministers.
I guess the whole point is to hang on tight. The ride may be long and stormy. Never forget that God has promised that all things are possible. Never stop speaking for truth and justice. Trust God!
Grace & Peace,
Sue Evans
:::posted by Sue on 3/06/2003 09:40:55 PM
Chris, I wish it were true to say that we are "not in America" here, but the unfortunate fact is, our church community is Little America. If it weren't, I don't think there would be any concern about women's roles in our assemblies. Like America, women are a visible part of public life in China. I don't mean to say that I don't see any evidence of patriarchal attitudes here, because that's not true--but I wouldn't say that about the States, either.
I think the biggest challenge for the church here is quietly negating the stereotypes people have been taught about Christianity--that you have to be stupid and gullible to believe in that sort of thing, that it's a secret, shady kind of organization, etc. Most Chinese people who are drawn to the church are, I think, drawn in spite of Christian doctrines rather than because of them. I think the attraction is the quality of relationships that you can see among Christians, the trust and acceptance. I feel like we undermine the very thing that is most attractive to people about Christianity when we create a special female sub-category of Christian.
Thanks, Vicki, Julie, for sharing with me. I really feel encouraged by you!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/06/2003 07:30:52 PM
I'm pleased to announce that we've posted a new article:
"Not the Same Woman at Work" by Mary Lou Hutson
:::posted by Lance on 3/05/2003 09:05:55 PM
Mark,
Osburn’s book, Women in the Church: Reclaiming the Ideal, outlines four positions along a spectrum, dismisses the two “extremes,” and evaluates the two “middle” positions in light of scripture.
The positions are labeled:
patriarchalism
hierarchal complementarianism
evangelical feminism (he also calls this “biblical egalitarianism”)
radical feminism
Osburn concludes that complementarianism and biblical egalitarianism can both be supported scripturally, but that, in his view, egalitarianism has the more compelling claim to biblical support. Nevertheless, he insists that neither position can claim a clear biblical “mandate” and so calls for dialogue, patience, and mutual respect between complementarians and egalitarians.
Here’s my abstract from the “Readings” page:
Osburn, Carroll. Women in the Church: Reclaiming the Ideal. Abilene, TX: ACU Press, 2001.
Osburn considers two alternatives, egalitarianism and complementarianism, in light of relevant biblical texts. He argues that Genesis 1-3 and 1 Corinthians 11 are the key texts, rather than Galatians 3, 1 Corinthians 14, and 1 Timothy 2. He concludes that neither approach finds a mandate in scripture, but that “egalitarianism is preferable in terms of biblical exegesis and the ideals of the kingdom.” In practice, he suggests that this “means that women should be able to do anything of which they are capable and in which they are trained…”
Peace,
L
:::posted by Lance on 3/04/2003 05:20:47 PM
Jennifer,
I have sympathy for your problem of how to be an exemplary Christian in Changsha, how to walk a line between pushing for reform and maintaining peace. I think the Pastoral Epistles (1-2 Tim, Tit) might offer you some food for thought. A major concern in these letters is how Christian leaders like Timothy and Titus can model behavior that is distinctively Christian and yet is not viewed as a threat to society in which they live. Over and over again, in talking about bishops (1 Tim 3:2, 7; Tit 1:7); deacons (1 Tim 3:13); widows (1 Tim 5:7, 14); slaves (1 Tim 6:1); younger women (Tit 2:5); and younger men (Tit 2:8), these letters express concern that outsiders might “reproach,” “revile,” “say evil about” Christians, or otherwise “defame the Word of God.” Outsiders might harshly criticized Christians, for example, if a pagan woman converted to Christianity and her husband did not. She would no longer worship her husband's family gods, nor attend civic rituals at local temples. So she and her Christian community might be blamed for undermining the foundations of a decent society. Over and over, these letters urge Christian leaders to model behavior that outsiders will recognize as decent and honorable, precisely because they must act on some Christian ideals that challenge prevailing cultural assumptions.
The Stoic philosopher Seneca, writing around AD 63 or so, gives a good illustration of this same problem for philosophers who wanted to influence the general public. He wrote: "The mere name of philosophy, however quietly pursued, is an object of sufficient scorn; and what would happen if we should begin to separate ourselves from the customs of our fellow-men? Inwardly, we ought to be different in all respects, but our exterior should conform to society. Do not wear too fine, nor yet too frowzy a toga. . . . Let us try to maintain a higher standard of life than that of the multitude, but not a contrary standard; otherwise, we shall frighten away and repel the very persons whom we are trying to improve. We also bring it about that they are unwilling to imitate us in anything, because they are afraid lest they might be compelled to imitate us in everything. etc. etc… ' Well then, should we act like other men? Shall there be no distinction between ourselves and the world?' Yes, a very great one; let men find that we are unlike the common herd, if they look closely.” (--Moral Epistles 5.2-3, 6, translated by R. M. Gummere, Loeb Classical Library).
I think this is just the sort of thing the Pastoral Epistles are getting at, and it sounds a lot like your problem. So perhaps you need to think about what are the core values of Chinese society that might be threatened by any Christians in Changsha. Don't worry about what American values might be threatened, since you're not in America. Now, if some core Christian values and beliefs lead Christians in Changsha to behave in ways that fly in the face of the beliefs and practices of most Chinese people, then how should Chinese Christians bend over backward in other aspects of their behavior to show that they are not a threat to society?
I guess you could say it's a matter of picking your battles. Or, to borrow language from the Gospel according to John, of being in the world but not of the world. You should act boldly and decisively in matters that demonstrate the core ideas of the gospel. In other matters, you should respect and work hard to understand and comply with local customs. When asked, always tell the truth about what you believe, and demonstrate what you teach. But don't force others to change their pactices unless they directly contradict the meaning of the cross.
Notice, I am not saying whether or not you should speak up more in your Christian assemblies. That's because I am not familiar with the cultural context in which you are working. But perhaps you can give us more information on that. How will your speaking up be percieved by the Chinese around you? Will it challenge their assumptions about men and women or reassure them? If you do speak up more and it challenges their assumptions, then in what other ways will you reassure them that you are a "decent" woman so that they don't turn off Christianity altogether? If, on the other hand, Chinese society in general has already embraced the idea of gender egalitarianism, then won't patriarchal attitudes (which are inconsistent with the cross anyway) discredit Christianity? Please tell us more about the social implications of this issue in Changsha.
Meanwhile, other listers might offer examples from their own experience of what it means to uphold local custom while pushing those core ideas of Christianity that might challenge local customs.
Brotherly,
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 3/03/2003 02:04:14 PM
Carmen,
Sorry, I was not monitoring the forum last Friday when you posted your question about 2 Tim 3:14-17. I want to confirm what you and Indie have already figured out. Yes, the phrase "man of God" uses the generic anthropos, so it could be translated "person of God." Of course, we do know Timothy's gender, so "man of God" seems perfectly fine in this context. And that brings us to the second point, which you already made, that this whole passage (in fact all of 1-2 Timothy and Titus) is written in the second person, singular. "You" here means "you, Timothy." Only by extrapolation and analogy do we apply these exhortations to other folks like Timothy. This is a directive to Timothy not as male but as evangelist and minister (2 Tim 4:5). We might apply the exhortation to any evangelist, minister, teacher.
Brotherly,
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 3/03/2003 12:00:56 PM
Jen,
That first step is a doozy!
I can only speak from my own personal experience. My "moment" came when I knew God wanted me to say something without asking permission from a man. One Sunday morning assembly I went forward at the invitation and read D'Esta Love's article as is printed on this web site. I was terrified! WOW! Has it been a wild ride ever since! No one walked out then, but 7 months later my husband and I were locked out of our building and told never to return, nor even speak to our church family. In spite of it all, I have an incredible peace within me, knowing I am doing what He wants me to do.
When your time comes, you will most likely feel terrified-peaceful, too, and that's OK. Know that we will be here for you.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/03/2003 11:38:05 AM
Jen, hang in there. I know exactly what you are talking about and that has been a major part of my journey. It wasn't until my mid-30s that I was completely comfortable with my voice. I wish it had happened sooner but I do remember that feeling of being stuck...words inside and not sure how those around me would take them...so they stayed inside my head and my heart and until I couldn't contain them anymore. Now I have to make sure I don't talk too much in class discussion. It will come. Allow the Spirit to push you. When you feel like you just have to say something...do! I believe that is the Spirit prodding you. I love your honesty. Thanks. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/03/2003 08:43:57 AM
Lance, I appreciate your definitions for "egalitarian" and "complementarian." Those are helpful to me. I read Carroll Osburn's book "Women in the Church: Recapturing the Ideal" (that may not be the correct title), but it has been a few years now since I read it. I don't want to oversimplify or generalize, but would it be accurate to say that in that book, Osburn essentially advocates the complementarian position?
Mark
:::posted by Mark on 3/03/2003 04:25:24 AM
Hello all,
Brent and I are back in Changsha after a good visit in the States. In many ways it is nice to be back. When I'm Stateside I really miss the closeness of doing church in small living rooms with ten or twelve others. But even just one Sunday back is enough to remind me that nowhere is perfect. I realize that maybe it's not always best to sit tight and be quiet and try to look pleasant. And yet, no matter how much I disagree with something, my first instinct is to find reasons to NOT come right out and say so. I don't consider myself a particularly fearful person. But I am having a very hard time figuring out if it's prudence that keeps me quiet, or something else. The Demon Silence, maybe. Dare I deliberately cultivate outspokenness? I'm beginning to feel like there may be something else at stake besides keeping the peace in our little community. I almost feel like if I don't start speaking now I will lose the guts to ever do so. And what am I waiting for? For my opinions to become fashionable, or safe?
I'm not even talking about confronting people directly about women and our status in the church, either, just contributing to the discussion/Bible study which takes the place of the sermon on our Sundays together. Somehow, I lack the courage to offer a dissenting view or alternative opinion, even in an environment in which it is supposed to be safe to do so, and even when I feel that it is absolutely necessary for someone to do so.
Do I have this problem because I'm a girl who was raised in the South? I know that this is a dilemma that all of you must have faced (and continue to face) from time to time. I could use some encouragement.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 3/03/2003 03:43:24 AM
Hi friends, this morning went really well. I was nervous but that was okay...no stumbing over words or mixing up. Was worried that I would be so nervous that I would make a stupid mistake.
I am up late because I am worried about my son. He is a freshman at Lipscomb and went night snowboarding on Friday night. He fell and I think he has a concussion. He is in an emergency room...he is fine...just found out....he does have a concussion but he is okay. Thank God for answered prayers. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/03/2003 01:47:48 AM
Friends,
I just wanted to pass along an announcement that may be of interest to the readers of this forum and also solicit prayers and whatever help you may be able to offer. The Brookline Church is looking to fill an opening we now have on our ministry staff. We have posted a job description on our website, and it can be viewed at "http://www.brooklinechurch.com/staff_position.html". One thing that is alluded to but not explicitly mentioned in the ad is that this could be of particular interest to folks who might be seeking to further their education. Any more specific questions can be directed to our email address.
Blessings,
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 3/02/2003 09:54:57 PM
Julie - May it be so comfortable for you that you feel you've been doing it all your life!
Serve as you are gifted.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 3/01/2003 11:11:12 PM
I have meant to share this with all of you but never want to feel like I am making others feel worse about where they are. Tomorrow will be a significant step for me. Tomorrow I read scripture in our public assembly from the pulpit, facing forward, and "legally". The last time I read scripture on Sunday morning, a whole row of members walked out and later that evening I was severely scolded by one of the elders. I had been asked to give a VBS announcement...I was running it that year. I used scripture to make my point and was told by that elder that I could've read from any book other than the Bible. Well, tomorrow is the first time a woman will read scripture on Sunday morning as part of the plan. I am reading the sermon text. I didn't know until the schedule came out that I was the one reading. I don't know who chose me to do that but I feel honored. We have come to a different place in our journey. Just a year ago, I most certainly would not have been the one chosen to do this because I have been so vocal. Pray for me in the morning. I love you guys and the support that you give. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 3/01/2003 10:43:29 PM
Lance,
You mentioned headship. That may be where the difference lies. I was surprised to hear talk of this male headship from some I have "talked with" on this forum. "Surprised" is a gross understatement. It brought tears streaming down my face! I felt we had taken a giant leap backwards. Maybe we hadn't taken as many steps forward as I'd believed.
"I Believe in Male Headship", by Gilbert Bilezikian, is an excellent article on this subject. Sent me to my Bible - in many translations - and my husband's Greek Lexicon. He brought out several things that confirmed what I felt in my heart to be true, and what is practiced in my own home, but lacked the knowledge to show it through Scripture. Male headship was the same objection used when we discussed women as elders in our class on women. Maybe this area needs more study than women's "roles".
Thanks for clearing my muddy water. I don't think I was confused as I thought!
-Vicki
p.s. I need to edit here. The article that I got the most from was "The Head of the Epistles", by Berkeley and Alvera Mickelsen. Not Bilezikian's.
:::posted by Vicki on 3/01/2003 08:54:40 PM
Vicki,
Egalitarian = No distinctions made. Giftedness is the only criterion for determining who can do what. (This is my view.)
Complementarian = Women may do more than they have traditionally been allowed, but in the final analysis their role complements that of men. This usually means some form of "male spiritual headship" with the argument hanging on "authority" and the line being drawn at preaching, or perhaps eldership.
I don't know about "equality" and "equivalence." Equality strikes me as a problematic word although I use it all the time. Are any two people really equal, strictly speaking? No doubt they should be regarded without partiality, but that is a different matter. I intend no gender sub-text here. Generally, I think people that speak of "gender equality" have an egalitarian view in mind. And it's probably a good idea to listen to what people mean instead of what they actually say!
Hope this helps.
L
:::posted by Lance on 3/01/2003 07:15:29 PM
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