The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
For those who like to read scholarly writings on the Restoration Movement, there is a publication out of Abilene called the Restoration Quarterly that normally comes out four time a year. This quater's publication (actually the first and second quarters combined this time) just arrived today. Being at work and a little bored tonight, I pulled my RQ out and did a quick scan down the index to see what was in it. I found an article titled "Co-workers in the Lord: A Biblical Theology of Partnership" by Jeanene P. Reese. This article was a real pleasant surprise (a topic I really didn't expect to see in RQ) and I would recommend reading it if you can get a copy of RQ. Their web site is http://www.restorationquarterly.org. Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/28/2003 10:02:42 PM
Katie, Lance, Others,
I've been a "silent lurker" on another board for a couple of days, reading their differing viewpoints and definitions on equality, equivalence, egalitarianism, complimentarianism, etc. I left there thinking that one of us was very confused - me! Would you please share your definitions of these and similar terms, and examples of "what that looks like"?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/28/2003 02:19:12 PM
Carmen - I don't think he's wired according to code. Did he read it backwards or something? You know, like playing Beatles LP's backwards, there is supposedly a different message.
"blue-blazin tarnation"???
:) -Vicki
p.s. I know a great new little church in northeast Texas who would LOVE to have you!
LANCE - Looking forward to some of your messages being posted on 3:28!
:::posted by Vicki on 2/27/2003 05:18:44 PM
Katie and all,
Quick post--should have been in bed an hour ago but got involved over on the GCM Board.
Lance's classes at Lectureship were outstanding! The second class closed with a short sermon demonstrating what he had been talking about regarding parables, their makeup, purpose, and how to preach them. By the time the 15 minute sermon finished, Lance had totally envolved everyone of us into the parable of the Pearl of great value. When he finished, he just folded up his notes and stepped back in silence. The silence was deafening! Then I heard - from behind me - a long sniff. When I turned around the lady behind me said "that was sooooo powerful" while she was dabbing her eyes with a kleenex. Then I glanced at the lady across the room from me and she was doing the same thing. Next to me to my left was Lance's brother(?), then his father, Jack, and around in the next section was Uncle Paul (who I confused for Jack 2 years ago in Co. Sprgs - and was politely corrected--that Pape family male resemblence is something else!) and they were all grinning from ear to ear! What that one lady had said was so very true! It was powerful lesson in a short time frame and was one of the best I heard all week! Katie, thanks for letting me know about and plan for that class! Grace to you all and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/27/2003 12:13:22 AM
Thanks Indie! I know. The Greek does'nt support his idea. Logic does not support his idea. He insists that 2 Tim. 3: 14-17 is gender specific. If it is gender-specific, then it is Timothy specific. If it is Timothy specific, then why in blue-blazin tarnation is he preachin to us out of it?!
:::posted by Carmen on 2/26/2003 10:32:10 PM
Carmen,
My knowledge of Greek is extremely limited, but when I looked this verse up "man" appears to be "anthropos" which, if I understand correctly, means humans, not just males. Perhaps the more knowledgable among us can enlighten us further.
:::posted by Indie on 2/26/2003 03:43:41 PM
All of this ACU excitement is catching! I wish I were there tromping through the slush with you and your daughters Wiley! I pray that everyone arrives home safely.
Meanwhile, back on the ranch, I need a hand to harness in some wild logic.
Has anyone ever encountered a Bible student or preacher who believes that 2Tim3:14-17 is addressing men specifically AND that the only verses which apply to women in the Timothy letters mention women specifically? In other words, that the Timothy letters (other than a couple of verses) are for men because they were written TO a man? So "the man of God" in 2Tim3:17 cannot be invested with feminine spiritual value ... he seems to be saying that "man" does not and cannot mean humankind, but the sex.
Whoa! I've never had to ride this one before! I'm holdin' onto my hat! ... veil ... whatever!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 2/26/2003 01:47:00 AM
Chad, Thanks for the info. I'll check it out when I get home on Wed evening. ACU cancelled all Lectureship activities for this evening until tomorrow at 11am due to more than 2 inches of sleet that fell this afternoon. I'm at my daughters' apt in Abilene sitting it out. Had to run my oldest twin daughter off the computer to get on tonight!
Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/24/2003 11:34:58 PM
Not to beat this tax and gender issue with a hammer...:-)...but there are some relevant articles through the following website at Duke Divinity School. This is a grant-funded research project on pastoral leadership. Go to: http://www.pulpitandpew.duke.edu/index.html
Check out the links especially for clergy salary issues and some things on women in ministry.
Blessings,
Chad
Boston, MA
:::posted by Chad on 2/23/2003 10:21:54 PM
Katie, I like that ad! Tell Lance I'll be in the audience Tuesday and Wednesday. May even have a couple of daughters with me if I'm lucky.
:::posted by Wiley on 2/21/2003 06:38:36 PM
That ad sounds like a good idea. A couple of years ago my dad (who is not a church-goer) and my mom moved to a new area. A local CoC minister paid them a visit and in the course of conversation said that I was only going to Harding to get my MRS. My dad, who has never interferred with anything church related things my family has done, got so mad that he practically forbade my mom to go to that church. I would say the new ad will make some people think twice.
:::posted by Indie on 2/21/2003 03:29:26 PM
There is just about nothing better than a dad who will get steamed on behalf of his daughter. You go, Wiley! (You and my dad will get a special table together in Heaven, I bet. Y'all have a lot of talking to do.)
Lance's next ad in Wineskins for this site will say, "In the 21st century your daugher can be the President of the United States.... but she cannot lead the closing prayer." Trying to provoke that same daddy (mama) instinct that we've seen in so many.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/21/2003 06:32:29 AM
Katie,
Just got in from work.
I agree with you on a number of points--especially that it's the church's problem. However, the law or method seems to be built around those who are denominational in the sense of having a central organization that certifies a minister through ordination, and not a church of Christ type situation. That is one of the proofs that is accepted--however I know of no CoC that "ordains" ministers.
I did state one thing wrong which Shannon has corrected me on. The new requirements are really as follows (as Shannon put it to me): 1: marry 2: bury 3: baptize 4: administer sacrements. Along with the form that a minster has to sign goes a letter from the church leadership stating that the above are part of the job description of the person applying for the opt out of SS and the tax breaks that are available to underpaid ministers when they have opted out. Her accountants out in Lubbock (specialists in ministerial accounting and taxes) told her they had never seen this before. What Shannon found out was the IRS is tightening up on who claims to be a minister and this is their way of tightening up. It basically classifies ministers for tax purposes in a very narrow description and the IRS apparently makes the real determination by what the letter says before considering the legal form they also require.
We are encouraging our young women who have heard a calling from God for ministry to go for it and at the same time we are not equiping them to handle the extreme prejudice they will find in both the church and the secular arenas. The graduate level schools are apparently not teaching their students how to plan or survive this type of problem. They also apparently are not keeping up with the tax laws regarding ministers since it seems to be directed at new ministers and does not recognize specialized ministry.
Whether one signs the paper or not is a personal choice, partially dictated by their economic condition. One way may be better for a person than the other. However, if her elders refuse to write a letter back to the IRS stating that the above conditions are part of her job description (even though she will never be asked to do them), then her tax status changes. It will be changed to that of a normal church employee even though she holds a Masters degree in a specialized form of ministry from a theological graduate school. I know really well about the self employement taxes haveing been in business for my self and doing my own rather complicated taxes for many years. There is a really big difference here though because I am only limited by my own self determination to earn while ministers are limited by their eldership's desire to pay a decent wage that compensates for the extra taxes (as you are very aware of). That change will also cause her to owe back taxes on the non-taxeable housing allowance that is available when one opts out of the SS in favor of a private retirement account. If her elders refuse to help her with settling this out (they based her small salary on the idea that she would receive the same tax treatment as male ministers), she will probably have to look for another job (maybe even a different field of employment altogether).
It is a very frustrating thing to watch a daughter who has worked hard to go into a particular field of ministry, put herself through school with very little help financially except for bank loans, have this type of experience hit and know that she is going to be asking for help from at least one elder who wants to fire her because she is outreach oriented to the lower income kids that live in the area around the church building and the elder believes in favoritism to the "better" kids in the church and doesn't really want all those lower class kids around!
Got to say, just blowing off steam helps!!! time to head for bed.
grace to you and peace. wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/21/2003 02:33:53 AM
A couple of thoughts about the tax dilemma:
1. This isn't the IRS's problem, it's the church's. I don't love the IRS, but they have to have an objective way to say who's due for the tax breaks that ministers can receive. The only reason they give any tax breaks to ministers at all has to do with the complicated notion of separation of church and state, and the simple fact is, not everybody who's paid by a church is eligible. (This doesn't speak to Shannon's eligibility; certainly she should be. The church should make it work for her.) Which brings me to my second point:
2. The way a minister qualifies for exemption from Social Security tax (FICA) is by signing an IRS form saying that s/he cannot in good conscience contribute to the Social Security system because s/he believes it is a violation of separation of church and state for the state to provide for her/him in retirement. Unless they sign the form, a minister is considered to be self-employed for purposes of FICA and indeed pays the entire amount -- 15.3 percent, last time I checked (instead of half of that with the other half contributed by the employer, like most American workers).
I don't mind telling you that I've never signed that form because I don't believe what it says, and because I don't believe my vocation makes me exempt from paying what other hard-working people have to pay. Social Security funds go, in the short term, to physically disabled folks, emotionally disabled folks, orphans, widows, and retired workers the age of my grandparents (and soon my parents, too). As a member of society I'm happy to pay my fair share, or even twice my fair share if you want to look at it that way. I tell my congregation to pay their taxes with integrity, so I don't go looking for loopholes for myself. The ministerial exemption for Social Security is big ol' loophole.
Now, that may sound harsh, and I realize that I'm blessed to work for a generous church that does not reduce my pay on the basis of their faulty assumptions about my cushy tax status. Fact is, I pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than most Americans of my income bracket. But I'm happy to do it for a selfish reason, too: I will need that money when I retire. Lots of ministers retire with no Social Security because they opted out of the system when they were very young, and you can't opt back in. (One might argue that Social Security won't exist when I retire, but I choose to believe that our society will continue to care for its retired workers in some fashion when it's my turn. They can call it Social Security or whatever they want. Call me naive.)
In any case, Wiley, I'm sorry Shannon is having to go through the difficult psychological and spiritual process of "proving" herself a minister in a denomination that just barely, by the skin of her teeth, allows her to think of herself that way at all. That is a crummy position to be in and one that should absolutely be rectified, for all our sakes. Congregations need to take far more responsibility for the persons they employ in matters like this.
I don't mean to inflame a debate about ministers' tax status -- as Vicki says, let's don't go there -- but if we're giving advice to women or anybody seeking employment in ministry, we should have both sides of the Social Security tax exemption question out on the table. (My dad's a CPA, by the way, and last time we talked about this he thought I was crazy not to sign the form and save myself a whole bunch of money each year. Sorry, Dad. I haven't changed my mind.)
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/20/2003 09:14:43 PM
Hi Wiley,
This tax law seems pretty ridiculous to me. First of all its discriminatory against non-Christian religions. Second, its discriminatory against specialized ministers (children's ministers in most denominations wouldn't have reason to perform those functions, except baptism, which brings me to my third point). Third its discriminatory against traditions which do adult baptism such as ourselves and the Baptists (since these traditions don't baptize children, there would be no need for their children's ministers to perform any of the functions necessary for IRS certification). It seems rather fool hardy, if not unconstitutional, for any government agency to dictate to a religious body what its job description for its ministers should be. So even though it probably won't do much good, at least for the immediate problem, I would inform my congressperson of the unfairness of this tax code. (I'm sure he or she is not aware of it. Even the IRS people don’t understand their own rules half the time.)
As for dealing with the patriarchal congregation, perhaps she could convince them to put something in her job description such as: serves communion (offers the sacraments) for women's gatherings or preaches children's sermons. This could play out in real life by serving communion at a once a year women's weekend retreat (I've been to a couple of these and it was the only time that I saw a women performing these church functions until recently) or preaching "children's sermons" outside of the actual Sunday morning church hour. Not much different than regular teaching duties she would take on, but perhaps something her elders could handle.
Of course, none of this is very satisfying if you’re looking for real gender justice.
Indie
:::posted by Indie on 2/20/2003 03:02:14 PM
Wiley - Welcome to the world of ministers (regardless of gender) vs. IRS. We haven't gotten a tax refund since we went into full-time ministry. Oh well.
Call them again (if you can bear the 30 minute hold), you'll get a different answer. Call again. Another answer, still. Rattle their chains with terms like "dual-status", "housing allowance", "Earned Income Credit", "quarterly tax payments". You can read it to them right out of their own books and they still don't get it. Every April, I fear my name will grace the headlines of the newspapers: Minister's Wife Shoots IRS Employee; or, Minster's Wife Shoots Accountant - couldn't make out a correct W-2 (we file dual-status).
And then there's the issue of churches providing for the future of their ministerial employees as the members expect their own employers to do. (Ooh. Better not go there.)
Are Children's Ministers in other denoms allowed the ministers exemption? Why couldn't Shannon do a marriage ceremony??? Surely, she could get through on that one! Even female JP's can do that!
Not very encouraging, was I? Sorry. It isn't a financially encouraging place to be. But we don't do it for the money. We do it because we're called by God.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/20/2003 02:51:22 PM
I probably shouldn't be posting this but at the moment my blood pressure is off the scale over gender discrimination within the CoC (and I need pressure relief!!!) and how it now affects all women who will be considering ministry in the CoC other than a preaching ministry position. I just got off the phone with my daughter, Shannon, who just talked to the IRS. They have denied her ministry exemption and told her she is not a minister unless she her job description contains at least one of the following four things as certified by the people who are in control in the church/denomination she works for.
1. preaches 2. baptizes 3. offers the sacrements (their words) 4. is allowed to perform marriages.
As a childrens minister, these are really not in her job description and in a traditional/legalsitic style church, these particular job duties will probably not ever be allowed. I think it is very doubtfull that the elderships and men's committees in these type churches will ever sign a letter stating that they are! She seemed doubtfull the elders (as a whole--maybe one or two might) where she works would ever say she could do these things in the church bldg . This seems to be information that is not being put out to the female ministry students in our graduate schools. This has been a real shock today. Naturally, she is quite upset by it.
This change in tax status is going to be pretty tough and very expensive before it is over! Of course we will be pursueing different avenues to try to remedy this, but having dealt with the IRS a few years ago, I am very doubtful there will be a positive outcome. It is something we did not foresee happening!
If you are a female considering going into ministry, according to the IRS case worker, to be approved for the ministry exemptions and tax breaks available to ministers your elders must certify that a part of your job duties are one of the four things I listed above . Before you accept any ministry position, make sure that your contract with that church states very clearly that you have at least one or more of those job duties. If they will not put it in the contract or write a letter to the IRS certifying that you have those duties as part of your job description, don't take the job if you are counting on the exemptions and tax breaks. If you don't have the exemption, you must pay in SS taxes with your estimated income payments (apparently churches are exempt from matching funds in SS so you will not have that counted toward your SS retirement) and you will not be allowed a tax free housing allowance. It will be taxed as income rather than an allowance from what we have learned so far. If you know of a female who is considering ministry, please pass this info on. It may save that person the thousands of dollars and alot of worry and headaches--which we are now facing!
Please pray for Shannon and her family that the elders at her church will support her by certifying that she does have one or more of the above requirements as a part of her job description, and that the IRS will then have a change of heart.
My blood pressure is coming down some now but it is still pretty high--but this has helped!!!!!!!!!!!
Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/20/2003 12:33:53 PM
I, too, want to welcome you, Quiara. This is a place of refuge and strength. Thank you for letting us know that you are there. I know there are others out there who just listen in...that's okay. However we can help each other...doesn't matter how.
Yes, still under lots of snow. Roads are beginning to get better. I have worked the last several days. Our street is still pretty terrible but is improving daily. Our county schools are closed all week. We are going to be going to school until July at this rate.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/20/2003 06:53:14 AM
Welcome, Quiara. May your new house feel like home quickly.
We are encouraged just by the fact that you, too, are in this place, in this time. Post often of your struggles and victories on this journey. Know that you are not alone.
Julie - I haven't yet seen BIG, FAT, yet, but love "the woman is the neck" thing! LOL! I needed that! Are you still under snow? My kids are so jealous!
We covet your prayers continually for our baby church.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/19/2003 11:55:08 AM
Hi. My name is Quiara and I've been following this site for quite some time.
I just wanted to say hi and to let everyone know how much I appreciate this site; it is really a breath of fresh air. This will probably be my only post for a while because I am literally heading out the door from my home in Bono, AR to my new home in Memphis, TN. I hope to start at the Harding Graduate school of religion within the next year, working on my M.A. and M. Div. in Old Testament studies. I hope to get my doctorate and someday teach, but my first love and desire is ministry. And I thank God and all of you who are working so hard -- each one makes it a little easier, a little better.
I wanted you all to know how much of an encouragement you are.
In him,
Quiara
:::posted by Q on 2/16/2003 05:01:05 PM
Hi Katie, quick note before heading off to worship. Kathie came home for yesterday for the weekend. She said she had a hug to pass on which she did! [big grin] God bless. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/16/2003 07:49:43 AM
Katie, so glad that you let us know more details about your time at ACU. I was saying yes! yes! yes! as I was reading your post. We have come such a long way on this journey...sometimes walking on eggshells, sometimes broken glass, sometimes through meadows of wildflowers while hearing God's voice encourage us on, many sharp words and tears, sometimes insults, and sometimes words of overflowing love. God has brought us so far and continues to hold our hand...sometimes strolling beside us, sometimes pushing from behind or pulling us along, but always ever present and visible. Katie, it is hard to put my thanks into words...thank you for listening to God calling you, for an open heart and a ready ear. As Robert Frost so aptly put it...and miles to go before we sleep, and miles to go before we sleep. I still hear him calling me and sometimes it frightens me. Where do you want me to go and how far? This forum holds me up and lifts my heart back to God.
I just finished watching Big, Fat, Greek Wedding and was struck with church analogies. So many lines that apply to us as Church of Christers. When the mother says that yes, man is the head but woman is the neck...she can turn him in any direction she wants to turn him. When she and the sister make the dad think it is his idea for Tula to work at the travel agency and not theirs. How many church scenarios can you come up with that fit that little scene?
But the most touching scene for me was the brother coming to her room and he tells her he is going to go to college. She has stepped out life and now he has the courage to step out and then he says to her to not let her Greekness define her but to always let it be a part of who she becomes. That is how I feel about the Church of Christ (notice the big C).
Just some random thoughts from me tonight. Have a great snowy weekend! grace, Julie
I forgot to tell you one more thing about Katie speaking at ACU. My two nieces were there and some women from Houston came just to hear Katie speak and afterwards to celebrate that Katie had spoken by going out to lunch together. They considered it a momentous occasion.
:::posted by julie on 2/16/2003 12:14:10 AM
Sisters and brothers,
I have been chastised a bit for not reporting more fully about my time in Abilene this past week. Please know that Lance and I struggle to find the right way to let people know what's happening without letting this website appear to be self-promotional, which it must not be. It's tricky. ("God, help us," we pray.)
...But the news is good, as I indicated briefly a few days ago. I preached in Monday's chapel at Moody Coliseum. (To see a manuscript of the sermon go here and click the “What’s New” button.) The sermon had nothing to do with women preaching, of course. The point is preach God's good news for human beings; being a woman is sort of incidental. Sort of. [smile]
I preached Tuesday in Bible Majors' chapel in the Chapel on the Hill. Tuesday afternoon I was a "dialogue partner" with a Bible professor in his undergraduate preaching class.
A couple of things stand out as being important to the readers of this forum:
1. The tide has turned sufficiently at ACU that no one, not one person, felt compelled to speak words of discouragement or disapproval to me, personally. No one stormed out in protest; no one gave me an intimidating look. Rather, dozens of people expressed love, gratitude, and support for my work.
2. Several church and school leaders expressed what is implicitly true: that my invitation to ACU shows respect for the congregations that have made my ministry possible over the years. Those who want to move ahead in response to the gospel's call for gender justice owe a debt of gratitude to Cahaba Valley, and West Islip, and Stamford, and especially Brookline for doing the right thing when it was so very, very painful to do so. Who will be next?
Thanks for your prayers and support. It means more than you can know. I met some of you in Abilene, and was so pleased to put faces with your names. (I hope some of you readers will become posters! Let us hear your voice, too.) "I will sing of your steadfast love, O Lord, forever; with my mouth I will proclaim your faithfulness to all generations!" (Psalm 89)
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/15/2003 05:00:25 PM
I just wanted to say thanks to all for the positive feedback regarding my research paper for this semester.
It is so, so, sooo nice to have this website and forum as a point of contact and source of information.
I'm working on narrowing down and developing my thesis -- reading as much as possible (which isn't nearly enough)... busy college girl!
I'll let you all know what I'm up to when I have a better idea of my direction.
Thanks!
Abby
:::posted by Abby on 2/13/2003 04:42:51 PM
Kirk,
I was touched by your post. You expressed quite well the sense of loss that comes with moving on ... moving beyond. Your dad's birthday party is a familiar scene. The brilliant, talented and loving women at my church mount elaborate celebrations and tributes when the occasion arises. I sense your soul's need to see and hear and know what your father meant to these women in their spiritual journey. It is sad to think that had your dad not recovered from his health crisis, the women who threw his 80th birthday party would probably not be invited or allowed to express their love for him at a church sanctioned memorial service.
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 2/12/2003 02:46:00 AM
Katie, I'm sure about the time I get home tonight I will hear from my youngest twin daughter who is a student at ACU. She was looking forward to hearing you. Wish I could have been there! Grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 2/10/2003 11:43:21 PM
Thanks, friends, for the kind wishes and prayers over the last little while. I was met with a warm welcome today in Abilene. God is good. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/10/2003 11:16:19 PM
Katie, I am typing this with intense emotion. I am so excited that you spoke at ACU. I went to ACU and someday will share my story with this forum...the beginnings of my change of thought...I had grown up in a congregation that was very progressive and didn't realize that the rest of the world wasn't...ACU opened my eyes. My personal experience there only deepened my convictions. I sometimes dream that I am in Moody Coliseum and I get to tell my story and share my faith journey with the students and faculty there. So knowing that you did speak and that you shared the gospel fills my heart with joy and hope for the future. May God be praised. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/10/2003 11:11:37 PM
Katie -
YEA! You go, girl! The Good News is good! (Thanks, Joe.)
:::posted by Vicki on 2/10/2003 10:38:07 PM
It's Monday, the day after most churches come together to proclaim the good news. However, today, Monday, the gospel was proclaimed from the "pulpit" in ACU's gymnasium during chapel. Katie was introduced by the Dean of the Bible department as one who "ministers with her husband on Long Island." Katie then proceeded to preach the gospel message to over 3,000 people.
Hallelujah!
:::posted by jch on 2/10/2003 10:11:39 PM
Kirk - We can relate! At some point, most of us have "gone home" and felt similar feelings. It isn't that we don't love them, but that something vital in our spiritual life with our Creator and Savior has changed so much, it's as if we aren't even in the same body of water anymore, much less the same boat. But we ARE in the same Body! And that's what makes the love flow with such heaviness of heart. How much we want to share this with them! That such a wonderful tribute and celebration of your father is given by women is an unspoken statement of their loss in their church life.
How does the saying go? You can never go home again?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/10/2003 09:32:36 AM
As many of you know, I am one of the few participants of this forum who is a former member of Churches of Christ. I keep in touch with the CoC mainly through my family and their friends. Today I worshipped in a Church of Christ--my first time in many years--and it was a bittersweet moment for me.
On a very happy note, my father has been slowly recovering from his recent surgery, and my parents' church honored him with an 80th birthday celebration today before worship, which was the reason for my visit. The church family has been so loving and supportive of my parents! There was a lovely table with refreshments, and an extremely talented woman of the church created a knock-out slide show biography on my father's life. Another woman, who happens to be an elder's wife, wrote a really neat poem about my dad which she publicly read in the fellowship hall during the celebration. It was truly the talented women of the church who organized and led this celebration.
The part of today that was bittersweet for me was the worship service. I participated as fully as I could and shared in the Lord's Supper. But what was difficult was hearing only men's voices from the pulpit and seeing only males serving communion. What was harder to bear is knowing that there is a teaching position that this must be so. Although I didn't expect things to be different 20 years later, I suppose I was a little disappointed there were not more visible changes. (In one hymn, the song leader directed men to sing certain stanzas and women to sing other stanzas. Perhaps during those verses when the men were silent, women were publicly proclaiming?)
What was bittersweet was sitting there for that hour knowing that what was once my church home cannot be so today. What I witnessed no longer reflects reality for me. Today my minister is a woman. When my church serves communion, there are men, women, and sometimes children carrying the trays. What disturbs me at this late hour is knowing that, on one level, I can experience the fellowship and love of my parents' friends, but ultimately I know I am probably viewed with suspicion or perhaps judgment. Perhaps I am the questioner, the antagonist, the liberal, the malcontent, the one who fell from the truth, the one who joined a denomination. The truth is that I have moved where I feel the Spirit is leading, and I am praying for understanding. The fact is I have no one in the CoC to share these feelings with, except you friends on this forum. I support what you are doing here, and thanks for listening.
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 2/10/2003 02:09:52 AM
Vicki, thanks for those parting words...may God's love for women be evident where you worship tomorrow. God is so good! He has been putting in my face over and over in the last month evidence of His love. I am struggling with some things right now that I can't share here but please pray for me. I ask you specifically to pray that I see God's hand in my life and that Satan be pushed away and not allowed to invade my thoughts and actions. I know that God is so awesome and is with me but sometimes I allow Satan to have my ear and my heart. Thank you all for the encouragement that you have been over the last several months. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 2/08/2003 11:49:45 PM
Whew! I lost my cookies and couldn't log in last night! I couldn't remember who I was, or my secret password. Panic! Just Imagining not being able to communicate with all ya'll - esp. now! - was scary!
Chris, Katie & Patty -
Thanks for your input. Chris sent info on his study today and my husband has been reviewing it. I was encouraged by Katie's comment that women's participation as elders may come years later without much fuss. Naturally, I guess. Right now, we're so small, we shepherd each other, anyway. And thanks, Patty, for reminding me not to take those decisions personally. It really is hard not to feel like a failure when trying to get a message across and it doesn't "take". Esp. when it's so important. You must be just as excited as we have been in being a part of this change.
May God's love for women be evident where you worship tomorrow.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/08/2003 11:02:26 PM
Hi everyone,
I wanted to share a couple of exciting things happening here at our congregation. My husband and I and another couple have taken on planning a once a month prayer and praise service. One thing we are doing is that no one is in front leading. The songs and scriptures are printed in the program and I started the songs from the audience and whoever felt moved to read a particular scripture did so and anyone moved to pray at prayer time did so. We were in a good sized group and it was at least somewhat formal in setting. We only got positive feedback about how it went. I was the only woman to pray but I think that will come with time. Also, a small group of men (including one elder) is studying the book Slaves, Women and Homosexuals. They have already begun to address how they will proceede if they come to the same conclusion as the author. I find it very encouraging to realize that they want to change when confronted with change. I just wish the study was open to women... Ironic isn't it?
Welcome Abby! I don't have any specific recomendations for your paper but I do agree that you need to choose a narrower focus. What always worked for me was doing some research and seeing what I found the most information on. Sometimes I went into a paper intrigued by one particular thing and wound up writing it out of the paper because it just didn't fit.
Vicki- Your church is having some exciting times and also tough times. Try to not take any decisions made about elders personally. Easier said that done when the topic is so close to your heart I know. (at least it would be for me).
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 2/08/2003 10:28:50 PM
Vicki, about your upcoming study: keep a log, for all our sake. We are all too aware that while there's a lot of technical, scholarly material out there for studying these passages, there's not much available that's easily digested in a Sunday school class or discussion group. The folks who run this site want to produce good, usable curriculum in the foreseeable future, but it's still in the distance.
So when you study this subject in your churches, all of you, make notes of what's presented and how it works. Sometimes the things that seem self-evident to me require more explanation than I thought; the things that I get stuck on are often easy for others to understand. So sharing your experiences will be helpful to the project of writing a curriculum that serves to reveal gender justice as God's purpose for his 21st century church.
I'm working on a paper that I presented to the elders of the Cahaba Valley Church of Christ when they were considering whether women could and should serve as elders. It's not ready to be posted yet, but someday... If it's any consolation, it seems to be a pattern that churches go for women's participation at every level except eldership, then add eldership years later without too much fuss.
One short note that might be helpful in thinking about women's eldership: The Numero Uno consideration when you're asking whether women can be elders is, you're asking a question the Bible's authors never asked or anticipated. They gave no instruction for women seeking eldership (nor forbidding it) because they never imagined in a million years that women, and the society they lived in, would be up to it.
I dislike giving short answers like that because they don't reveal all the exegetical and theological work that have gone into forming the conclusion... but Vicki has a deadline! Our prayers go with you into your discussion, sister.
And welcome, Abby. Narrow that topic, girlfriend! Chris's advice is very good; he's been a professor of mine and you would do well to correspond with him as you develop your thesis. Prayers for you, too.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 2/07/2003 07:23:49 PM
Abby,
Good luck with you're paper. If you want more info on the Paducah CofC my uncle was a Minister there, and I have a good friend who went there, I'd be glad to see if either is willing to talk to you, and hook you up.
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 2/07/2003 06:36:02 PM
Abby,
Sounds like an interesting course. From the title it sounds like it has a strong element of sociological theory in it, studying how social dynamics affected attitudes toward race, class, and gender in the Churches of Christ. Is that right?
One way to narrow your topic to a manageable size might be to do a case study of one representative event in the life of one congregation. You could focus, say, on a congregation with which you have at least some familiarity and some access to members and former leaders. You should focus on some incident that happened maybe in the 1980s or earlier--long enough ago that nerves are not raw and people can put things in perspective. For example, in the early 1970s, when my family moved from Texas to Alabama, we moved to a congregation that still forbade women to wear pants. My parents had been accustomed to team-teach a junior-high Sunday School class in Texas, but the elders in Alabama would not allow them to team-teach, because there was a twelve-year-old boy in the class who had been baptized. So naturally, they didn't want my Mom to "usurp authority" over him. In that case, my parents simply divided the class. My dad taught the boys, and my mom taught the girls, and it was very successful. There was no big stink about it in the congregation, although my mom was quite perturbed at the elders.
Okay, so think about some incident like that, maybe even something that had a bigger, public impact, but it may or may not have led to a major split or the firing of a preacher. It might have been settled peaceably at the time and only later the effects became apparent. But think of some incident. Now, if you can write an ethnographic description of the congregation and explain the incident in context, you can use it as a window into understanding all the larger issues and dynamics at work in the whole Churches of Christ over several decades. That is, describe the demographics of the congregation, the major cliques and friendship groups and power groups, the different kinds of power, different influences on the congregation from various colleges, publications, and so forth. When the issue came up, what was its source? Who opposed it and why? On what basis did folks take sides? What arguments were advanced on each side? On what basis was the matter finally settled--interpretation of Scripture? pressure from secular society? pressure from other congregations? Something else? And what was the aftermath?
For an example of such a study, see Mike Casey, "An Era of Controversy and Division: The Origins of the Broadway Church of Christ, Paducah, Kentucky," Restoration Quarterly 27.1 (1984), 3-22. Casey grew up in Paducah, so he knew something about the area. He provides a window of understanding into the whole 19th-century instrumental music controversy by explaining what happened in one congregation.
Once you narrow your topic, whether you adopt my suggestion or not, let us know, and we might have some more specific reading recommendations.
Brotherly,
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 2/07/2003 05:23:34 PM
Vicki,
I am preparing some material on 1 Timothy 2 that we can post as a resource on this web site. It's not ready yet, but, since time is of the essence for you, I invite you to write to me privately at xpic@gal328.org. I'll be happy to provide you some help for your upcoming class discussion.
The rest of you should watch the site. Lance usually announces whenever we add new content to the site. I hope to have this available pretty soon. Eventually, I hope to add more material that will address such matters as "husband of one wife" in 1 Tim 3. But I'll start with 1 Tim 2.
Brotherly,
Chris
:::posted by Christopher on 2/07/2003 01:48:17 PM
I wanted to remind everyone that Katie will be speaking this Monday at ACU's chapel. She is then speaking at Tuesday's Bible majors chapel and then guest speaking in a Tuesday afternoon preaching class. Katie needs all the prayers you can pray. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Lance is taking care of the two kids and prepping for a Sunday morning sermon. He too needs our prayers!
:::posted by jch on 2/07/2003 10:22:32 AM
Abby - Best wishes with your paper.
My husband has Copeland roots. Think you might be related?
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/07/2003 09:38:21 AM
Hi Everyone. I am new to this forum.
I am a junior at Oklahoma Christian University, raised in the churches of Christ and firmly believe in the importance of gender equality in all aspects. Afterall, if I find validation as a woman in the "world" on a daily basis, shouldn't I find this validation even moreso within my church family? It's nice to find people who agree with me on this one.
I am posting this little message to solicit your help.
I have just begun work on my semester-long project for an honors course, The Quest for Identity: Race, Class and Gender in American Thought. I have decided to construct a research paper examining the role of the churches of Christ in the repression/opression of women. Obviously, this topic is quite broad - and if I don't watch out, I could end up writing a lot more than I can even imagine! So, I need help.
1. Does anyone know of any must-read sources (aside from the ones listed on this great website) that you think would be of help to me?
2. Do you have any ideas for how I might narrow my topic?? -- Specifics that I should concentrate on?
Really I'm looking for any input that anyone has to give. I figure that those of you who read this forum on a regular basis have likely studied this subject far more than myself.
Thanks!
- Abby
:::posted by Abby on 2/07/2003 01:15:59 AM
Hi All.
Got real quiet after someone said "Harding". Eek! I thought that was common knowledge!
Our Monday night study on women has been going really well, but I see a brick wall coming soon, and I'm looking to you for wisdom words.
Next week, we'll hit the 1 Timothy passage, and I'm already hearing the rumblings. Women in the role of deacon is not an issue (some still use the term "deaconess" - !), but in the role of elder will be a biggie. You all have heard every argument on this topic. I guess I don't think like these objectors do, so I don't know how to persuade them otherwise. Can you help? (please?)
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 2/06/2003 04:47:23 PM
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