The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Hi Kirk,
It's funny that you should mention Harding as "a virtual pressure-cooker of marriage". When I went there we called it the marriage factory. There was definately a lot of pressure. One church sent out 10 to 15 notices a semester (no exaggerating) advertising their dating, engaged and married couples class. The mail area was always a mess as frustrated singles who felt like they were freaks threw the flyers on the floors in protest. Of course the poor janitors were the ones who had to pick them all up. There was one student who wrote a letter to the editor of the campus newspaper a few years ago about how glad she was to be single as an attempt to combat this attitude. If I can find a copy of it I'll share some of it with you all. It was pretty good, as I remember it.
:::posted by Indie on 1/31/2003 04:23:40 PM
Chad (and others), this is an interesting topic. I believe your question was how we as single persons practice gender justice in our personal lives. The way I strive to do so is to encounter each person as a unique child of God. As such gender is but one attribute, none of which defines or constrains a person's potential. My responsibility is to allow God's Spirit to move through another, and to receive the gift he or she is able to share. It is amazing to experience how that combination of gender, race, physical stature, sexual orientation, ability to learn, etc. makes another unique and how those gifts sometimes defy our expectations.
That being said, I can't help but react to comments about the status of single persons in the church. Evangelical churches traditionally have advanced marriage as the normative Christian lifestyle, and by implication, treated being single as an aberration. This goes beyond gender justice to the question of whether the church can accept and affirm single persons as whole, mature people of faith. The way this injustice is practiced is both overt and subtle.
1. Many congregations openly state that only married males can hold positions of leadership. I've actually heard of cases where only married men were allowed to apply for ministerial positions.
2. Church culture applies pressure on single people to marry. This is not institutional injustice but sometimes a more personal kind of abuse. As has been mentioned, church "single's groups" exist not only to provide fellowship but to promote marriage. My brother, who graduated Harding University, described a campus life that sounded like a virtual pressure-cooker of marriage. Whose interests are being served? There are many reasons why an individual may not want to be married now . . . or ever.
3. What exactly is a church saying when it markets itself as a "family church?" Does it mean that all kinds of people are welcome and sort of blend together like a happy family? Or does it mean that the church honors nuclear families as opposed to certain "non-family" forces in society? I need help with this one.
In sum, single people are made to feel incomplete, unfulfilled, and somehow less than equal participants in the Commonwealth of God. What trumps all of this is the life of Jesus Christ.
(The required disclaimer is that I am 38 years old and never married, though I honor the institution of marriage for those who choose it. Just as an aside, I only recently learned than my only surviving great-uncle, who is in his 90's and active in the CoC, is now cohabiting with an unmarried female companion. Unlike other family members, I do not question the nature of the relationship but hope that both of them find fulfillment.)
:::posted by R. Kirk on 1/31/2003 01:53:11 AM
Chad - You bring up something that I spent many years trying to figure out and have vowed to not forget now that I'm an old married woman.(lol) It has been amazing that by virtue of my getting married suddenly I am considered a peer by many women who used to try to mother me. (I was 30 when I got married so it isn't like I had just become an adult) Suddenly my ideas were important, my husband was courted to do things for the church, I was asked to do things and invited to meetings etc (that he goes to also of course). I am sure that many people at church would be shocked to hear me say that they treated me differently before I was married from now but it is glaringly obvious to me. This year I am helping to plan our ladies retreat. I made sure that we didn't pick a theme that only appealed to married women and mothers. I also pointed out the subtle ways that singles are disregarded. For example if the speakers examples are all about marriage and family.
What should you do about dating etc if you are into gender justice? Well, for me it meant putting that out there pretty quickly. I got too far down the road with too many men who thought they would change me. Then there were hurt feelings, broken hearts, broken fellowship. Gender justice in relationships means that you are willing to reinvent the wheel in many ways. Finding out what works without preconceived notions about what men and women "should" do. (men always pay, open doors, buy flowers, women wait by the phone, try to not seem too pushy, worry about their appearance) Not that these things can't happen but that they aren't expected because of the sex of a person. I think it also means that effort is made to cultivate friendships that are with the opposite sex, while recognizing that attraction often grows out of friendly affection and being wise to that and making sure that is an acceptable result or doing what it takes to restrict it.
I love being married but I also loved being single. Both options offer something different. I would not say that one is better. They are both full of joy and conflict. Happiness and sadness. I am definately constricted as a married person in ways that I never was as a single person.
I think that the answer to your question goes to the heart of our culture. We tend to treat unmarried people as though they are somehow caught between childhood and adulthood. That is wrong. I have felt it seeping into my brain as well, after all it is how I was raised to think. Perhaps there is something wrong with unmarried men and women, esp if they are over 30.... On the flip side I have known plenty of unmarried men and women who think their life is lousy and it is the church's job to fix that for them. I do think it is harder to get people plugged in when they are single, esp single women in a traditional COC. It has to do with the way we structure things. Married women hear about things from their husbands (at home) and get involved. Or they have children and get involved in the children's ministry. Men are asked to usher, or pray or read scripture and start to get involved. Unmarried women often don't know how to start getting plugged in and often aren't. These are gross generalizations. I know of plenty of ministries that were started by unmarried women and that are sustained by them. This was how I felt at church though. I look forward now to when my husband will be doing communion because I have hopes that I can influence what he says and have some hand in the workings of our worship service.
I have organized a once a month evening of praise and prayer. That wouldn't have been possible without being married. Officially my husband and I and another couple are running it. (honestly I was nervous that if I did it by myself as I first proposed people might get distracted from worship and focus on that fact) When people want to hear about the program they tend to ask my husband. He and the other husband weren't even in the room when most of the decisions were made. We need to announce it Sunday and are trying to figure out if we'll push the envelope by having me announce it or just let one of the involved men do it. I'm traveling far a field from where I started.
I don't know if there are any good books on dating for the the gender justice Christian. I certainly never found them.
I think I rambled enough for one evening.
Peace-
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 1/30/2003 11:40:48 PM
I wanted to clarify something from my earlier post--read it again today and thought, well that came out weird. When I said, God values my enemies as much as he does me, I didn't mean to imply that anyone here is my enemy. I was thinking more along the lines of those who oppose all I stand for. God doesn't love the things they do, necessarily, but he loves them and longs for their change of heart as much as he hopes I will mend my ways.
Chad, you raise an interesting question about how gender justice applies to singles. I remember back in my single days, being very frustrated at all the emphasis at church on marriage and finding your future mate. At the time I was not at all sure that there would be anyone like that in my life, but it didn't seem as if the folks at church knew what to do with me. I think in terms of our emphasis on evangelism, it is all the more important to be conscious of gender justice issues when we are working with singles, because we can alienate people very easily otherwise.
One obvious area that comes to mind is in the assumptions we make about people. When I was single and looking for a church home, all the churches I visited wanted to hook me up with their singles groups. I didn't want to be in one of those singles groups, though, because they all seemed to be focused on some group dating activities. I think we would be wiser to try to integrate people into the congregation rather than assuming we know what their interests are and pigeonholing them into a group. Many of our churches are quick to suggest to women that "we have a singles class on Sunday morning and then we also have a ladies' Bible study . . ." How about, "we have an adult class on Romans and we have another adult class studying the Holy Spirit this quarter." There is nothing wrong with a larger congregation dividing up into groups of people with similar interests, but I find it annoying when the categories are "young marrieds," "singles" and "parents of teens." (Maybe because once again, since I am no longer young but without children, I still don't fit into the focus group.)
I think that our church families are just as complicated and messy as our real-life families. Nearly all of us have someone in our extended family, at least, who is divorced. If we can recognize that it would be off-putting to have a couples-only theme at the family reunion, why do we insist on lining everyone up into these Ozzie and Harriet tableaus at church?
When I was single and new to the town where I lived and trying to find my place at work as well as at church, I was amazed at the way my male colleagues picked up networking and clients at church while I was invited to keep the children in the nursery or attend a ladies' retreat. It seemed that no one was the least interested in where I worked or what I did, they were all too preoccupied with trying to find me a suitable husband. I think divorced women in our churches have similar experiences. I expect the single men are also pressured to be out there in the dating scene all the time.
If Paul recognized that an unmarried state was acceptable to God, why can't we?
--Mary Lou Hutson, Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Mary Lou on 1/29/2003 08:13:31 PM
Nice to see some life back here! I haven’t posted in awhile but wanted to raise a few questions for the forum that seem to keep coming up in my conversations of late. How do single people practice gender justice? In dating? In friendships with members of the opposite sex? I raise this not merely as a single person, but as one who serves a church with many single professionals and students. Most discussions of gender justice, if they get outside of the question of the practice of gifts within the church, seem to me to usually focus on the marriage relationship (though perhaps I’m not listening in the right places). I haven’t heard much on this that I find helpful or constructive as it relates to those who are single; for example, it’s easy to find folks (usually married!) who are quick to condemn the dating scene but slow to provide solutions other than “avoid it”, “don’t flirt or have sex”, or “trust God and ‘the one’ will eventually come along” (an idea, by the way, that I find both psychologically paralyzing and theologically problematic). In other cases the assumption is made that married life is the only life to have as a Christian, and that can leave people either longing desperately for something they don’t have or discriminated against because they don’t want what others think they should have.
I don’t know if there are many single folks on the forum, but this seems to me to be relevant to the church as a whole, and especially to those of us committed to practicing gender justice in all our relationships. Thoughts? I'm also curious how those of you with kids are teaching them about singleness, dating, and marriage. I wonder sometimes if the problems single people have is in part due to lack of teaching, imagination, or models that offer something different from the advice columns and club scene.
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 1/29/2003 07:45:38 AM
Update: the school official who was being uncooperative has agreed to let us go. However, part of making this deal work meant that we have to forgo a month's salary. But we can swing it. So, we will be at a new school next semester! I am very relieved. We leave for Beijing tomorrow by train, and fly out Feb 3. The next time I post, I'll probably be in Dallas!
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/28/2003 09:20:53 PM
Jen, we are all hoping and praying that you will be able to work out the issues with your school and your travel plans. Godspeed.
Vicki and Julie, thanks to both of you for sharing something about your political leanings. I have a feeling that the group of people who regularly contribute to the forum are a diverse lot in many ways, and that is one of the strengths of this platform. Julie, your comment that "if we were all the same of course we would come to the same conclusions" reminded me of a line in one of Anne Lamott's books, Bird by Bird. The book is about writing but she comments here and there on religion and at one point she says that a priest friend told her something to the effect that a sure sign we've recreated God in our own image is when it turns out He hates all the same people we do.
I thought that was a pretty good line and a reminder that when I'm feeling particularly self-righteous on any given point, I need to take a step back and remember that my God values my enemies just as much as me.
--Mary Lou Hutson, Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Mary Lou on 1/27/2003 02:41:37 PM
Vicki, you are definitely loved! This is our place to be together and let down a little. I am glad that we come from different places with different opinions, lifestyles, ages, politics, gender.... That only reassures me more that we are on the right path. If we were all the same...of course we would come to the same conclusions (and it would be awful boring around here). May you continue to feel God's love and infinite grace as prayers continue to go out for you and your family through this transition. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/26/2003 11:48:02 PM
(Julie - I'm not offended. I'm not angry. I was confused. Probably still am! When one is passionate about something, emotions are sensitive. Gender justice/equality is worthy of passion.)
I am amazed by the assumptions by most on political views when speaking on gender justice. I am not, nor ever have been, a feminist in the political realm. I never burned my bras. I just didn't need them. (Oops. More than anyone needed to know, huh?) I've always thought differently from my peer. I have a little bit of a rebel in me. Sometimes a lot. I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom when it wasn't cool. I homeschool my own children. My husband is a preacher. I voted for George W. Does that make me right-wing? (My husband usually says I'm way out in left field somewhere. Alone.) The visual is clear: yes, I am.
Yet, here am I. My husband makes the bed. I keep the finances. (Tax time. Ugh.) We both make coffee. He doesn't tell me to get him a bowl of ice cream. I don't tell him what to preach on. I read Scripture and lead singing in our worship. Am I still right-wing? The visual fogs.
The anger toward "right-wingers" has been pretty strong and clear on this forum this past week. My point is what Julie said: "We can't begin to battle with each other." Political stereotyping is inaccurate. Maybe even hurtful. As we've been reminded in the past when we were naughty (LOL!!), others come to this site and read the forum. If I came here this past week stepping out into unknown territory for the first time re: biblical equality, and I considered myself to be conservative (gasp! Republican, even!), would I have felt comfortable or welcome, and would I return? Probably not. We all are responsible to bring them closer to it, not push them away.
I suppose it feels like a spanking, but I don't intend it that way. I'm sorry! I just can't figure out a better way to make my thoughts clear. I don't want a confession or an apology. Maybe just recognition that gender justice exists where I live, too. I love you all more than you can possibly know! You helped me get to where I am today, and where I'll be in my tomorrows.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 1/26/2003 07:46:10 PM
Wow! So many thoughts flying through my head. I hope I can catch a few and coherently give them to you.
First, Jen, yes, we will pray. Aren't you supposed to be going to your sister's wedding? I will pray hard. Also that you get well...no fun to take a long flight with a head cold.
Vicki, not sure how to take how you responded to me. It sounded like anger...but hard to tell with typed words. I truly was only stating my opinion...from my own experience. You asked about the connection between gender justice and political leanings and I gave my thoughts. This forum has been a haven and we are all friends here. We can't begin to battle with each other. We can discuss difficult topics but we should still hold each other up to the Lord. Vicki, I feel that you are my friend and your politics couldn't keep me from being your friend. You may have just experienced a small taste of what I encounter often from my own political leanings...How can you be a Christian and vote the way you do? (question asked of me often) You just heard from me ... how can you be on the political right and still be for gender justice? I am sorry...I should have been more careful with how I worded all that. I know how it feels to be on the other end of those kind of questions. Again...sorry. I will eventually learn to keep my foot out of my mouth but sometimes I think it is there so often that I have become accustomed to it. So just tell me because I may not be aware.
Jen, I agree that we shouldn't just go along with the system in order to get done what we want done with minimum hassle. We need to be willing to speak up and take the heat. Doing that makes it easier for those coming behind us. I sometimes remind myself of this and say to myself that I am doing it for my daughters (14 & 9).
Please forgive me if I was offensive in any way. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/26/2003 02:40:03 PM
Katie,
You said " I think it's parallel to the elder-couple thing, in that the women in question are assumed to offer their gifts to the church only as they are "attached" to the guys who have "real" jobs in the church, rather than on their own terms, in their own personhood."
Actually, I think I've seen the application of this far more in the ranks of paid ministry than in the eldership. The "real" job being the man's for his ministry, but the wife (who may have as many hours in upper level classes as he does along with a degree) is expected to teach, help out, use her talent in ministry, etc .in some cases as an almost full time worker because of the "husband/wife" thing but without the benefit additional pay for the responsibilities assumed by the wife. The elders or "mens" committee just expect the wife to be the helper and not do anything else besides ministry work with her husband. This is so grossly unfair to the wife (and the husband especially considering what I know some churches pay for ministers!). I know you have seen or heard of interviews of preachers where the wife was also a required part of the interview, even though she wasn't being considered for the job. A friend of mine finally gave up on applying for a ministry position at any church that even mentioned his wife being an un-paid part of his ministry. It made it much more difficult to find a job and he finally quit ministry. I wonder how the principle here will be applied when we finally start seeing women in full time ministry on a regular basis? Will it be the opposit way around for the husband or will it be 'assumed" that the man is exempt from the assumption that he must help because "he" has to work?
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 1/26/2003 01:53:56 AM
I think Vicki got right to the heart of what I was trying to ask--whether these manipulative tactics are the result of being "squashed," as Katie put it, or the result of something else (possibly a whole host of other things), which would not be solved by giving these people more direct leadership. I have vacillated on this myself, which is why I threw the question out to all of you. Probably the answer is unique to every troubled situation. But (confession time) I find myself straining hard to resist manipulating things through my husband when I don't see any other way to accomplish something needful. It's so easy to do, after all. And it seems like such a reasonable interim solution--it doesn't rock the boat, nobody gets their feelings hurt, and the task at hand is accomplished. But, I think, the means inevitably taint the end.
Thanks for all the responses. This has been my "church" for today, I am at home sick with a terrible cold.
On a personal note, could I ask for prayers? Brent and I are having a terrible time with our school and are trying to move to a different school for next semester. The details are boring, but the upshot is, we don't know if we will be "allowed" to leave or not. And we only have 3 days before we are supposed to leave for the States in which to work this out. I'm pretty stressed.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/26/2003 01:49:58 AM
Thanks for the replies. At least I know you're not so mad at me you won't speak to me! I have to admit that I laughed when Julie said Katie was "eloquent". Sounded like "articulate". :) (Katie's ref. to Alice Walker.)
FYI, Julie. You would consider my politics to be right-wing. If what you say is true, then why am I here (328.org), and why will I be worshiping with a group of Christians in the morning where women will be praying, leading singing, and reading Scripture?
I came here tonight because wanted to share this link with anyone who cares to listen. It's beautiful.
http://www.biblelessons.com/commands.mp3
Ukranian Christians singing a song you'll recognize.
p.s. Katie - Have you read Bushnell? I'd like your opinion.
:::posted by Vicki on 1/26/2003 12:59:46 AM
Katie, I also should be sleeping but...you have said so eloquently what I was trying to say in my post. Thank you for making it so much clearer. I do believe that if we allow everyone the rich freedom that is offered, we will have a different church. We need to remember that Christ offered his freedom to all.
I love that old hymn...There's a Fountain Free...There's a fountain free, tis for you and me, let us haste o' haste to its brink...tis the fount of love from the source above and He bids us all freely drink...Will you come to the fountain free? Will you come? Tis for you and me. Thirsty soul. Hear the welcome call. Tis the fountain opened for all.....There's a rock that's cleft and no soul is left, that may not its pure waters share. Tis for you and me, and its stream I see, Let us hasten joyfully there...Will come to the fountain free? Will you come? Tis for you and me. Thirsty soul, hear the welcome call. Tis the fountain opened for all.
What an incredible gender justice song! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/26/2003 12:13:46 AM
I should be sleeping, but... this is a good conversation. Worth staying up for.
Vicki, the question is not so much whether specific women, having been denied legitimate outlets for their will to power, should be legitimated now with the title "elder." The question is, how different might those women have been if the system had not squashed their best gifts for servant-leadership from the time they were toddlers? Might bitterness and manipulative tactics have never grown up if they'd been planted in the rich soil of Spirit-given opportunity within the church? Jen doesn't propose that the Occasional Sneaky Elder's Wife we've all known should be honored for her disservice to the health of the Lord's body. She articulates, rather, the imperative that we not raise up any more generations of frustrated women who can't see any other way to influence the shape and mission of the church.
Not that any of the Occasional Sneaky Elders' Wives would agree that gender justice would have made them better people or better servants. They are likely to hold on tightly to the traditional roles they've been given, because in that arena they have learned how to win, i.e. get what they want more often than not. It's a distorted game they play, but they know all the rules and they're good at it. So it's intimidating to propose a major change of rules in the middle of a game they think they're winning.
As to the "elders-as-couples" phenomenon, of course nobody thought "How can we hack off the feminists today?" The thing about discrimination is, in its most insipid form it is very subtle, even to the discriminator. Alice Walker, an African-American novelist and essayist, says that her blood boils when interviewers compliment her by saying she's "articulate." Well, of course she is. And they honestly don't mean anything by it; they're not racist, for goodness' sake. They're just not thinking. They think they're paying her a compliment, but in fact it's condescending because it's based on the assumption that because she's black, being "articulate" is remarkable. I think it's parallel to the elder-couple thing, in that the women in question are assumed to offer their gifts to the church only as they are "attached" to the guys who have "real" jobs in the church, rather than on their own terms, in their own personhood.
Please forgive the generalizations, all you wonderful, Spirit-filled elders' wives out there. I have known and loved and relied on so many of you, much as I rely on the Spirit-filled husbands of several of my current elders. Press on in his service, sisters. And brothers.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/25/2003 10:44:53 PM
Vicki, I do understand where you are coming from but I do feel that some of the backhanded things I have seen done by elders' wives could very well have come from frustration at not being able to put their ideas out there legitimately. Sometimes we do things the wrong thing when we feel backed into the corner.
I also understand how it must've felt to be in the audience that morning when they asked the wives and children to come up with the elders. I know that my mind would've gone to the same place...maybe it has to do with personal history and experience. I would have left feeling at the very least confused and the very most fuming.
Vicki, I do follow what you are saying but I do believe there is a connection between the very right wing politics and the gender justice issue. I won't go into that here because you will never shut me up. Sorry.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/25/2003 08:22:24 PM
Hi everyone. I've been reading every day since Carmen's posting on last Sunday's service. I've tried to say something several times, and it never seems to come out right, so I delete it. I've decided that today I will post. It still may not be quite right, though. We'll see.
First of all, I want to make the statement that Biblical gender justice is not a political issue. It is not liberal-left-wing-right v. conservative-right-wing-wrong. While there may be some places where they intertwine, they each stand alone. My personal beliefs on gender justice in the church are not connected to my voters registration card. Who God says women are is not answered by Democrats, Republicans or Independents.
Second, whether we like to acknowledge it or not, we do elect/select elders' wives when we choose their husbands to serve as elders. Most are gifted supporters to their spouse, and some serve/work equally beside their spouse. The church is blessed by them. But there are a few (my personal experience is one in every church) who wreak havoc in God's family, and even cause churches to split. No, Jen, direct leadership by these women would be a train wreck. The manipulation of others, esp. of their elder-husbands, is only part of the problem. Their goals are the problem. Am I saying women should not be in leadership? NO! I know many women who have been serving God as shepherds of his sheep for a long time. Just w/o the title. I call them Secret Shepherds. That's part of what gender justice is: being free to bestow the title on the one with the gift.
Next, I am not ruffled by the couple pictures (from a cultural perspective, our newspapers are full of ministering couples). Nor am I disturbed by the "incident" on the podium. Since I can't get inside the brains of those who chose to have prayer w/wives and children present, I cannot question their motives. Sometimes we have to choose to believe that someone acted simply out of ignorance with good intentions. I don't think someone thought, "Let's see what we can do today to get under the skin of those feminists." I just don't see it. I choose to think someone thought they were doing a nice thing. If I thought their intent was otherwise, that would be a clear signal that I did not belong there.
Fourth, I've been reading "GOD'S WORD TO WOMEN", by Katherine Bushnell (1856-1946). What a truckload of information to challenge one's thinking! It sometimes feels like she is sitting next to me, sharing this wealth of "new" Scripture with me. I find that I read her writings slowly, where I normally fly through books that interest me so. It is written as a study, in paragraphed lessons. Some of the things I've learned in studying with her, I am unable to share with anyone other than my own spouse. People would think I've lost my religious mind! For me, she makes the pieces of the puzzle fit together perfectly. I'm sure some of you have read some of her writings. What do you think? Where did you go, "Oh, YES!" and where did you think, "Mmm, I don't know about that, Katherine."
And lastly, (whew!, finally!), how wonderful it's been to gather on Sunday mornings with God's family to sing, pray, read, whatever, without silently saying, "I can't do that because I was born a woman," and to gather as a family around the Lord's table - literally - to celebrate and fellowship with each other in love. We are looking forward to the day when a woman will break the Bread of Life to us. (Any volunteers?)
OK. I think I'm caught up now. I'm very direct at times. I hope I didn't offend anyone. (Please don't be mad at me!)
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 1/25/2003 11:45:59 AM
Jen, I think that you have hit the nail on the head! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/25/2003 10:43:43 AM
Tried to post this the other day, but had Internet problems. So this comment is a little belated.
Do you think that some of the problems caused by some elders' wives (and I've seen some of this too) would be alleviated if women had more avenues of direct leadership, and thus did not have to resort to manipulation of others to accomplish goals?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/25/2003 09:24:56 AM
Wiley, warmest congratulations on your new addition! May God bless you and your family.
Thanks for sharing the website of the Australian congregation. Within the Restoration Movement overseas, there is more "name confusion" than in the U.S. As most of you know, there are three primary groups here: Churches of Christ (non-instrumental), Christian Churches and Churches of Christ (instrumental/ independent), and the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). All are historically related but quite distinct today.
The same distinctions we have ("a capella vs. instrumental" and "strict congregationalism vs. denomination") exist in Australia, but what's confusing is that all RM congregations call themselves "Churches of Christ." The chuch featured in the website is actually affiliated with the "Churches of Christ in Australia," an established denomination with national headquarters, state offices, and instrumental music. The only way you'd know this is by the denominational logo (slanted cross with outstretched hands). The denominational website is:
http://www.churchesofchrist.org.au/
Regardless of these details, isn't it interesting to know that some folks in our RM heritage in North America, Europe, Australia and elsewhere have all independently come to an understanding of gender justice? If any of you live near a Disciples congregation, you have an opportunity to establish fellowship with your "RM cousins" who have recognized women in leadership for decades. One of my old Church of Christ ministers relocated to another state, where his new church was located kitty-corner from a Disciples church. He got to know their minister, and the two churches sponsored some joint classes together. It's fascinating to look back on our RM history and see how the CoC and DoC still have so much in common today (weekly communion, immersion, elders, etc.), and yet have gone such different paths when it comes to the status of women. Perhaps there could be some dialogue on this (of course, without any goal of having people to jump churches!).
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 1/24/2003 09:57:08 PM
Wiley -- Now I have two new Favorite Places! One under Photos: Family and Friends and one under Church of Christ! Wow! Now I have even more reasons to pay a visit to Australia!
There is a new Australian minister in San Diego. I met him last month at a youth conference. I think we might go hear him speak sometime soon.
:::posted by Carmen on 1/24/2003 05:36:09 PM
Two things before heading for work.
First:
I have a few photos on my web site now ofour new family addition!!!
http://www.clarksons.org/photogallery/River%20photogallery.htm
second:
I was in the process of looking for some links to Austrailian Churches of Christ that I had lost when I ran across this church of Christ. I was originally going to post some links regarding how the Australians Churches post their ministerial photo's. Many of the churches posted husband/wife photos labeled a ministry team. However, it was this link that surprised me.
http://www.blackwood-church.org.au/index.php?id=meetteam
I won't ruin the surprise. Go take a look at it. I will say that, in a number of ways, it appears that the Australian CoC (in most cases) is way ahead of us and alot less legalistic. I have looked at many Australian CoC sites over the last few years out of curiosity and have been pleasantly surprised many times.
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 1/24/2003 02:16:11 PM
Carmen,
I think you’re right; in some congregations, having the wife of an elder more visible could be intended for distraction and it’s deceitful. I’m not sure how I feel about a congregation is using it as a way to get people warmed up to women in leadership roles. It could have both good and bad effects. (By the way - it 1 degree here - I might come and visit you!)
I know that we have been using the word "elder" here, and I was wondering if that is the term most of your congregations use. We generally use "shepherd" and have actually been using the term "Pastor" lately. I like the mental picture that I get when I hear them called shepherd or pastor.
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/24/2003 09:50:13 AM
Thanks to everyone for all of the responses!
Kirk -- I had given some thought to the possiblity that the new "silent, but visible elder's wife" is intended to distract seekers from the patriarchal structure of our church and now I am wondering if this new "phenomenon" will be employed to enhance our image as we go to two services and construct a website and ebulletin. Is it marketing? I don't know. Our website, though it is still under construction, only features photos of the ministers who are all male. Since the leadership at our church is extremely right wing (elders wearing campaign buttons at church; announcements and prayers that "we should pick up a Christian Coalition voters pamphlet in the foyer, study it prayerfully and go to the polling booth and vote for God"; and a minister who sent a letter to our congressman signed with every members name! He was nice enough to tell us AFTER he sent it!) I feel have enough to at least consider that the leaders are inviting the women forward in order to enhance a subtle political message.
I've heard stories about rogue elder's wives wreaking havoc in congregations, tearing them apart. But, like Patty, I have never really known one. I like and admire the wives of the leaders in our church. I've spent significant time with some of them and even claim one as a surrogate mom. Most of them are incredibly kind, healers, prayerful ... very "hands on" in their ministries. I have no arguments against their being honored. By all means, they should be given, at least, double honor!
So, if their reputations as good stewards of their talents and good shepherds of the flock and good wives to their husbands is being used as a promotion device or a political message or just an attempt to keep up with a "model" megachurch, I'm certain these women have the purity of heart to rise above the situation and redeem it through the Holy Spirit.
I just look forward to the day when they can call their husbands up to the podium to support them in a special prayer for peace.
:::posted by Carmen on 1/24/2003 02:36:21 AM
I've been too busy to post lately but following along all the time. I just had to thank Julie for that beautiful birth story. It brought me to tears. Wow!
I am torn on the family elder picture. On the one hand those men wouldn't be in their position without their wives (the husband of one wife is the least of it) and families. Wives carry a significant influence and most elders wives that I am familiar with are spiritual leaders in their churches at least among the women. At the same time they have no official recognition of that role and were not selected to fill it (although I'm sure many a qualified man has been kept from being an elder if his wife wasn't up to snuff) and a photo of the couple or family may send the wrong message to outsiders. It may be a church that is hoping to silently slide ever closer to gender justice without ever making any waves or getting noticed or may be simply keeping up with the Joneses or some combo of that. I'm not sure that recognizing these women who usually do a whole ton is a bad thing nor am I sure that putting token women in photos to make is seem like women are respected and admired is a good thing.
I know that my experience in the churches of Christ hasn't been typical but I have never experienced an elder's wife who wasn't an admirable spiritual woman who supported her husband as elder and had her own ministries as well.
In response to Katie's mention of moving away from the old terms, I can see the point of leaving them behind as the shackles of misogyny however I can also see a truth in transforming them through God's power and grace to what they should be, titles of honor.
About peace, I belive that God's ultimate goal is peace for his creatures. I have no idea what that means in the current situation. My heart breaks for how men, women and children are treated in Iraq and many other countries around the world. It also aches to think of young men and women sent in to die in order to try to free them. It aches to think of bombs being dropped on cities. It aches to think of American's being targeted for violence because of their country of origin. I am part of the planning of an evening of prayer and praise for two weeks from now. We are focusing on Peace. It is structured loosely enough that I have no idea if anyone other than me will be thinking and praying about the situation in the middle east. Although I suggested that topic with the looming war in mind my fellow planners have gone somewhat other directions with it. I am grateful that there have been no prayers or speeches about the rightness of America or our military in the church services I have attended. Although I belive people have the right to belive this I think it has little place in a worship service.
Wiley- Congratulations to your daughter and to you! I'm glad that everyone is doing well.
:::posted by Patty on 1/24/2003 12:12:37 AM
Shelly, later is fine with me. I am in the early time zone but I hardly ever go to bed before 11 so that would be fine with me. What do the rest of you think? I just feel so strongly that we should be praying for peace. I think that God is pulling for peace.
Wiley, woohoo! I am so happy that everyone is healthy and doing well. I love being a part of the birth process. I know that you will be a wonderful, compassionate grandfather who will tell and show that little girl the love of a great big God. I was recently part of birth with a Nigerian family. There were lots of people in the room for the labor and delivery. There were two men present...the woman's brother and her minister. They stood behind the curtain for the whole labor...not a short one...and prayed and sang spontaneously the entire time. One would start singing and the other would pray or sometimes harmonize. The women in the room would also occasionally join in. When we reached the pushing stage, it intensified...louder and louder...while calling on God to let the Spirit fill the room. Even the mother was singing through the pushing stage. When the baby was born prayers of thanks went up. The baby had some difficulties and I had called for the neonatologist but because it was so loud in the room they couldn't hear what I asked for ....so I had to resuscitate the baby myself. The baby ending up being fine after a few scary moments. They then annointed the baby and the mother with oil and prayed over them. They also prayed over the placenta and talked about how incredible it was that God had provided for that baby through that placenta...just as he nourishes us through the Spirit. When the baby was completely stable and wrapped in blankets...one women held the baby up and prayed for 15 minutes for the baby. She prayed specifically that this child have courage and that she know her Savior...that she possess many gifts and that she never claim those gifts for herself but that she always acknowledge that they were given by God. I could feel the Spirit moving in that room. Birth is so powerful...I believe that is why God chose rebirth as our entry into his family...just as we enter our earthly families. Sorry...I couldn't help sharing that story.
Shelly, I don't think I answered you very directly...Eastern...my time zone.
Is anyone going to Pepperdine? Ann and I are going...it would great to meet some of you.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/23/2003 08:21:40 PM
Julie, I think a commom prayer time is great. but why don't we make it a little later. What time zone are you in?
Wiley, Congratulations to all of you!
Our 9 elders are working very hard to hold our congregation together. This year we had all four of our full-time (paid) ministers leave - all for different reasons. We do have an interm minister and are actively searching for a new full-time minister, then, with his input, we will start searcing for a new youth minister (we have over 100 teens), education minister (instead of the involvement minister we had) and a children's ed/preschool person. I am surprised that we have not lost members with all of the upheavel in our leadership. Anyway, the Eldership has become very important - much more than a "men's business meeting."
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/23/2003 03:52:24 PM
River Cadence Rains, daughter of Shannon and David Rains, made her entry into this world quietly at 7:48 PM this evening weighing in at 7 lbs 13 ounces. Believe it or not, the OB/GYN felt Shannon's stomach at around 3 pm and predicted 7lbs 14 oz! Wonder how he is at guessing calf weight! :>) Shannon had a rough time for the first 3 hours until enough pain killer was administered to take care of it. Unfortunately for Shannon, she inherited my wife's low pain threshold and my high resistance to pain killers. Bad combination!!! After that, everything went fairly smooth. I have already enjoyed about 30 minutes of getting to hold that precious little life! All those old feelings of when I had three daughters that small came flooding back! I thank God for such a blessing!!! Needless to say, I already have a trip back to Ft. Worth planned for tomorrow morning (65 miles) before going to work while my wife is at work. You know what the neat thing is about this? I can spoil my granddaughter all I want and send her home--I couldn't do that with my daughters who were home!!! :>)
As for the elder-couple comments: I agree with the approach of Shelly's church. And I have seen the damage that can be done without that scrutiny. Shannon has been battling a similar situation of "damage" where she works
I will post photos of River on my web site in a day or so!
.
:::posted by Wiley on 1/23/2003 12:22:07 AM
Wiley, let us know how your daughter and baby are doing. I just spent the day at work bringing babies into the world...I am so excited for you!!! I love her name!
Shelly, I agree with your mindreading. That has been a typical pattern. We are so afraid of appearing to do anything different.
We should as a group set aside to all be praying at the same time for peace...like Thursday evening at 7:30. We could send all those prayers up together.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/22/2003 09:03:45 PM
I've been reading over the discussion on the"fad" of photos of elders w/wives on on web sites while I anxiously await a call from my daughter Shannon to say she is on her way to the hospital (she was having fairly hard contractions about 8 minutes apart an hour ago). It may be a fad in some ways. Speaking as the person who takes care of the web site. We do the same thing on our church web site but it isn't limited to just the husband wife. If they have children at home, those are also in the photos. Same with the ministers. I would have a problem with a church that had women elders/deacons/ministers who didn't put the husbands and children in the photos the same way. While the emphasis is on the person who is the leader, I think it helps everyone to know who the family is also. Having been an elder in the past, I can say that the job is shared by the spouse. Alot of times the spouse is the only relief valve you have!!
Just got the call I was waiting on. We are off to the hospital to welcome River Cadence Rains into this world!!!!!
:::posted by Wiley on 1/22/2003 11:25:01 AM
Carmen, I should not have asked a question that you could not answer. (Mary Lou) What I saw from my mind-reading viewpoint . . . maybe they are feeling pressure to have women more visible, but he himself (or the Eldership) would not actually accept the idea, so in an effort to pacify some, they invited the women/wives up to the podium, and also invited the children so as not to give anyone the "wrong idea." Does that make sense? I know it's not logical, but was I clear????
We use the "Ministry Leaders" title. It's not just for women, but also for men that are not married - and therefore do not meet the requirements of a deacon. It can be a stepping-stone (baby steps) toward women in higher leadership roles, depending on the congregation.
As for the "Elder Couple," when Elders are appointed, the wife goes under as much scrutiny as the husband, and in some congregations, she is expected to fulfill certain roles, teaching classes, organizing certain functions, etc. I have also seen more damage done by Elders wives then anyone else in the church - they have the ear of a leader and can abuse their role horribly. In a way an Elder-couple.
Just my 2 cents . . . Have a great day!!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/22/2003 10:54:35 AM
Interesting data on the "leadership name game" congregations play: in several C of C congregations I know of that are one hundred percent gender equitable, meaning that women are included at every level of work, worship, and leadership, the "elders" are called something else. One group has a steering committee; one has a council... they are usually okay with being called "shepherds" or "leaders" but the title of "elder" makes the leaders themselves feel uncomfortable.
I theorize that changing the name gave older (elder) women permission to see themselves in the caregiving, protective, teaching role of biblical elders. Further, I think that many folks in these congregations, women and men alike, have had bad experiences with harsh, autocratic elderships, so they were happy to lose the title and begin again with a new vocabulary.
I waver in my opinion about this. Part of me sees it as a (subconscious?) plot to forever keep women out of the sacred role of elder. "We'd rather not have any than have women doing it." But I know these congregations well, and they have boldly stepped away from that kind of thinking in every conscious way. So part of me rejoices in the freedom they have exercised, in the Spirit, to discern God's will for servant-leadership in their church families.
On the "America as God's nation" thread: our congregation just read together the book "The Next Christendom." By using worldwide demographic data, the author shows how the Christian population concentration is shifting to the southern hemisphere, so that by 2050 the stereotypical "white Western [european] Christian" is going to be a rarity. The indiginous churches of Latin America and Africa will be the new face and voice of Christianity, with Asia not far behind. How embarrassing it will be if we are still insisting, in the face of this undeniable and overwhelming sea change, that "we" are God's favored people. What's our evidence for that again? That we have tv's in every bedroom? (No, Carmen, not you -- smile.)
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/22/2003 09:53:08 AM
I think so many of the changes evident in churches now are being made without any forethought at all. Maybe this fad of "elder couples" is like that. One church does it, and then the rest is all just keeping up with the Joneses. Of course, that in itself carries some theological import, just not necessarily any intentional theological message!
Carmen--I can't believe that someone would think America is the only nation that sends out Christian missionaries! That wild misinformation aside...the idea the America is in some way particularly blessed by God really haunts us here in Changsha. It came up explicitly one Sunday as two Christians asked, "why is America so rich, and China so poor?" The answer they got was that God has blessed America with material wealth because America is a Christian nation. This answer, of course, carried with it the undeniable implication that God doesn't give a fig about China...and you know that that implication wasn't missed. Also, I really appreciate your point about what it really means to feel unsafe. I don't think most Americans can really understand 'poor,' 'hungry,' or 'unsafe' the way people in other parts of the world can.
Mike, it's so nice to be remembered! We may actually be visiting soon. My little sister is getting married, so we're hightailing back to the States during our Winter Break/Spring Festival holiday. We'll be in Abilene briefly, in early February.
Katie, d'you think you can get a spot in Grad chapel? It's about time.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/22/2003 08:48:25 AM
Mary Lou, I've noticed the same recent phenomenon of congregations featuring elders and their wives together on web sites and in church directories. When I began seeing this pattern, it occurred to me that to show an exclusively male leadership team goes against the grain of contemporary society. Although government and industry are still dominated by men, it is simply no longer good public relations to convey you are run by a "middle-aged white men's club." While many institutions are genuinely striving for diversity, even the laggards will appoint a token female or minority to at least create an illusion. So showing photos of elders' wives seems to be a way of distracting from the fact that men are in control. As you point out, elders' wives are not elected church officers, and featuring them prominently only creates confusion.
Have any of you seen a related phenomenon of churches publicizing lists of "ministry leaders?" Traditionally there were lists of elders and deacons. Then some congregations came to appoint particular deacons as heads of particular ministries, sort of like a President's cabinet. Since it is no longer politically correct to have an all-male "cabinet," some churches (in my view) decided to add women's names to the list. In order to do so, the list was retitled, "Ministry Leaders." The most bizarre practice is the asterisking of male names, with the footnote, " *Deacon." Give me a break! With their proven leadership qualities, why aren't these women recognized as the deacons (servant leaders) they already are?
When I was taking undergrad religion courses, one of my professors spoke of the freshness we need to appreciate theological truth. To do so, we need to divest ourselves of the games we have learned from "playing church." When will we decide we have grown beyond gender games such as these?
(Carmen, I really appreciated your thoughtful response and hope you will be part of the dialogue, even if not from the pulpit. Like you, I have military blood running in my family, which puts a reality check on my pacifist beliefs. I am searching for guidance from the Holy Spirit as to how I should respond to this war. My pastor has been encouraging me by regularly alerting me of various peace events.)
:::posted by R. Kirk on 1/22/2003 03:33:55 AM
Hello, friends. I've been sporadic about visiting in the past couple months. I'm trying to catch up on your lives. Jen, glad to find you in the room. Hope you and Brent are doing well. (Maybe I'll learn more if I can catch up on archives.) Thanks again for the great book suggestion before you left. Looking forward to hearing Katie speak in chapel at ACU on Feb. 10 from a text in Matthew 5. Mike
:::posted by Mike on 1/21/2003 07:58:09 PM
Thanks for the responses.
Kirk, I'm glad to hear that your father is recovering.
To answer your question, "If your congregation had women elders, how might their prayers have been similar or different? If different, is it possible that the men of your congregation might be enriched by women's 'prophecy?'" I'd have to do quite a bit of creative thinking, since I've never been exposed to a church where women are leaders. Already, I am trying to mindread through the "strange" ceremony I described, I can only tell you what I would say and what I would not say, even though I do not think of myself as a church leader or even a potential church leader, if I were invited to offer a congregational prayer for the current political crisis. I would not neglect to pray for the military, particularly for those in the congregation, and their families even though I try to be pacifist. A prayer for safety is not necessarily a prayer for victory or a positive political outcome. But, I would have eliminated what I thought was a politically charged statement about the "sacrifices the military men are making for us, so that we can feel safe." I was raised military -- every male in my family -- dad, father-in-law, uncles, brothers and some cousins -- are, or have been military. They don't go on deployment to make Americans feel safe. Many of them go because if they don't go they'll be AWOL. Sure they are dedicated to their jobs -- many are high-ranking officers -- but it is a fantasy to think that individuals who are in military service are, every one, spiritually, intellectually and ideologically supportive of a military action which they have no choice but to take part in! Anyone who thinks that all military are fighting for Christian and republican ideologies, come to my family reunions for a little disillusionment. They're professionals and that's why they go and do what they are trained to do. Even the military knows that all of their personnel do not support every military action, that's why the discipline for not showing up is so severe.
Also, I don't feel unsafe, and I am surprised that so many Christian people say that they do. I wonder if most people raised in America know what feeling unsafe is? Perhaps an Iraqi woman with an infant, two children, a disabled husband and elderly mother to care for could explain what "unsafe" feels like as she faces the day-to-day, moment-to-moment uncertainties and horrors that come her way as war once again, invades her homeland. I would pray for her and for other people who feel unsafe in Venezuela, North Korea, China, as well as the man my son and I saw living under the freeway overpass near our home ... Also, I would not say, as the brother said at communion last Sunday, that our nation of America is especially blessed by God because we are the only ones who send out Christian missionaries. I can't mindread enough to understand his logic or know where he got that information! I guess I would simply pray that the conflict would be resolved peacefully.
Jen, I can relate to your experience as a woman in ministry. My husband and I had a Christian bookstore for 17 years. We shared all of the responsiblities, but it was so common to hear people call it "Jim's store." It was an everyday occurance for men to insist that Jim help them with book advice rather than allow me to assist them. Sometimes Jim would tell them he didn't have the information they wanted and advise them to ask me. Some would rather not have the advice than to get it from me or any of the other very bright women who worked there. We even had several customers who would call and ask for "the man in charge" when a woman answered the phone.
Shelly, I guess I'll have to ask the brother to explain his logic ... but, I'm afraid that my curiosity will lead to conflict and misunderstanding. That's why I asked you guys first! When I get up the gumption, I'll ask him.
Mary Lou, I guess we are both in the dark about this new "visible but silent wife" -- is it a promotional strategy? awkward move toward egalitgarianism? strident patriarchalism?
I just don't know.
Thanks everyone for thinking this through with me! Please keep your thoughts coming!
:::posted by Carmen on 1/21/2003 07:40:59 PM
Shelly, Carmen and Kirk, I'm interested in each of your perspectives on the scene as Carmen described it. I have noticed recently that some congregations are putting pictures of both the elders and their wives on their websites. I'm not sure I understand what the motives are behind this; I suspect they are trying to be more family-friendly, but I wonder how off-putting it is to singles to see the emphasis on the couple when it is certainly NOT our practice to appoint a couple to the eldership. Yes, the family has a role to play in the man's work as an elder, but it's not as if they are co-elders. Does it seem a bit strange that most of the congregations where we see this sort of thing can be identified through their worship practices and prayer emphasis as being politically right-wing--in other words, just the sort of folks that objected so strenuously to Hillary Clinton's taking on a policy role in her husband's presidency?
Has anyone but me wondered why the wives go along with it? (Would it seem impolite or unsupportive not to participate in the plan?)
I don't have a problem with praying for our military and our president, but I would like to see more prayers included for the other nations of the world and more prayers for peace in general.
--Mary Lou Hutson, Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Mary Lou on 1/21/2003 03:26:40 PM
Kirk, I'm happy that your father is doing well. God bless you and your family.
Carmen, I have a question. What do you think was the reasoning for bringing the wives and children up to the podium? I don't understand his reasoning. Did he think that it was "less offensive" to have the women at the podium if they had children with them? I guess it's not fair to ask you to read his mind, is it?
I've missed hearing from everyone. Still there?
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/21/2003 01:01:49 PM
I don't Carmen's being unfair at all. The differences in status among us in the church are, in my opinion, most often communicated in these kinds of subtle--or not so subtle, really--visual ways. I really think this sort of thing is what makes it possible for so many people to voice a rhetoric of equality and yet maintain a practice of inequality--without noticing the disparity. I have felt the same way often. Before we departed for China, my husband and I were invited to come to the front during the Sunday morning service for a blessing at my family's church. The minister asked several questions about our plans--all of them directed to Brent. Not to put too fine a point on it, Brent is in China because I wanted to come back, and it is an act of love for me that he is here. China is not his call, nor has he ever pretended to anyone that it was his idea rather than mine. But I stood there like a dumb sheep while he answered all the questions. It made me feel really stupid, like there wasn't any point to my standing there at all. I know that the idea was to emphasize our partnership in this work, but I think instead it communicated male-headship (behold this model wife as she mutely follows her husband into the wild unknown of China!). That's what it communicated to me, anyway.
I am also, like Kirk, always uneasy at the way churches seem to embrace violence as a solution to political problems without considering the theological implications of such convictions. I wonder how many of the women called up there to give their silent support to those sentiments feel the same way, and had no way to express their dissent?
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/21/2003 01:35:01 AM
Carmen, the situation you described made me cringe. We know that ultimately there is a "good heart" behind the elder's prayer, but we cannot help but recognize the strange way in which the ceremony was carried out. If I had been a vistor, I would definitely have seen calling the wives on stage as reflecting a belief that women are "victims," rather than coequal participants in the political sphere. This flies in the face of the fact that women are rising in rank and sheer numbers in the U.S. armed forces, as well as the fact that Bush's national security advisor is a female, as was the secretary of state in the previous administration. Women are not merely passive spectators, but part of the solution (or the problem, depending on your point of view).
Here's a question back to you. If your congregation had women elders, how might their prayers have been similar or different? If different, is it possible that the men of your congregation might be enriched by women's "prophecy?" I tend to believe that when women are coequal leaders, we are able to see issues from a broader range of perspectives.
Not to get off-topic, but I question whether we should be praying "for the military"--even in San Diego--rather than confessing our idolatry of military zeal. Jeanette Rankin (Republican-Montana), the first woman ever elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, said, "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake." In fact, the first vote she cast in the House was a vote against our entry into World War I. Here are two other Rankin quotes:
"There can be no compromise with war; it cannot be reformed or controlled; cannot be disciplined into decency or codified into common sense; for war is the slaughter of human beings, temporarily regarded as enemies, on as large a scale as possible."
"What one decides to do in crisis depends on one's philosophy of life, and that philosophy cannot be changed by an incident. If one hasn't any philosophy in crises, others make the decision."
(Shelly, thank you for asking about my father. He is very weak but recovering from his surgery to install a cardiac defibrillator. In many ways, over the past 30 years, he has become the "bionic man." God has truly blessed him with an extended life time and again.)
:::posted by R. Kirk on 1/21/2003 12:58:19 AM
Things are really quiet! I guess everyone is working on those New Year resolutions, huh?
Well, this makes twice, now. Last Sunday an elder invited all of the wives and children of the elders to stand at the podium while he offered a prayer for the military. Please don't misunderstand me. I have always felt that children need to be more visible and active in church service, but this feels more like a move away from gender equity than toward it. Leadership is a family experience, and I am glad that the children share in a public way their part in it. However, the wives are not in the same level of influence as their children in the spiritual leadership of the church. Asking the wives to join their husbands at the podium along with the children smacks more of a solid expression of Male Spiritual Headship (and in this particular instance using women and children to enhance a right-wing political statement) than it does gender equity. Am I being unfair? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
:::posted by Carmen on 1/20/2003 10:48:35 PM
I just had to share Sunday with you. Many moments that were moving and made me realize that we are now smashing down the sides of the box that we have been in for far too long. We have taken the lid off but we have much more work to do.
One of the moments on Sunday I didn't even get to witness...only heard about after the fact...I sing on the praise team and we sit on the front row...so, of course, I can't see. While we were singing "On Bended Knee" one of our teenagers stood up all by himself and stood throughout the song. Everyone was very moved by his conviction to stand. So glad that we are feeling freer to worship together.
During communion we sang "How Beautiful" and were singing the phrases....how beautiful the hands that serve the wine and the bread and the sons of the earth...how beautiful! how beautiful is the body of Christ!....As I looked up and realized that now, yes, we do represent the body of Christ...women and men standing together at the communion table...I felt the Spirit kick into high gear.
The sermon was inspired and worked through all of us and then a teenage boy came forward to be baptized. His family had visited for several weeks. We formed a huge circle and held hands and sang and welcomed him into our family.
We have usually in the past 6 months had about 110 people there and this last Sunday we had 144. God is moving and allowing us to recognize the Spirit. Keep us in your prayers as we step out in faith. I feel like we are just beginning our journey! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/16/2003 08:18:06 PM
Take a look at Lance's "Frequently Raised Objections", no. 4, about gender justice being a "sell-out to culture." And then take a look at these words from Moltmann's "The Church in the Power of the Spirit":
"The tradition to which the church appeals, and which it proclaims whenever it calls itself Christ's church and speaks in Christ's name, is the tradition of the messianic liberation and eschatological renewal of the world. It is impossible to rest on this tradition. It is a tradition that changes men [sic] and from which they are born again. It is like the following wind that drives us to new shores. Anyone who enters into this messianic tradition accepts the adventure of the Spirit, the experience of liberation, the call to repentance, and common work for the coming kingdom. Tradition and reformation, what abides and what changes, faithfulness and the fresh start are not antitheses in the history of the Spirit...
"From this it becomes finally clear that it can by no means be merely the unrest of our time which causes the unrest of the church. Nor can it merely be the present revolutionary situation which makes it essential for the church and its teaching to find new bearings. Of course the church must take changes in society into account in its language, its services and the forms of its life and organization. It has to accept these changed times. How else could it fulfill its charge before God, before men [sic] and the future? But basically its 'unrest' is implicit in itself, in the crucified Christ to whom it appeals and in the Spirit which is its driving power. The unrest of the times points it to this inner unrest of its own. The social and cultural upheavals of the present draw its attention to that great upheaval which it itself describes as 'new creation', as the 'new people of God', when it testifies to the world concerning the future of 'the new heaven and the new earth'. What is required today is not adroit adaptation to changed social conditions, but the inner renewal of the church by the spirit of Christ, the power of the coming kingdom. The theological doctrine of the church will consequently allow itself to be guided by the inner unrest which is agitating the church." (p. 3, "The Church in the Power of the Spirit," 1975)
I love that insight: that "the unrest of the times points [us] to this inner unrest of [our] own." And I need the consolation that this unrest within our siblinghood is inherent to the very nature of our identity as Spirit-filled children of God. Someone had introduced the question on this forum a few weeks ago as to the level of change and accompanying anxiety in the Churches of Christ these days. I think Moltmann has something to say about that: "Congratulations! Now you are being Christ's church."
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/14/2003 12:43:04 PM
Kirk,
How is your father?
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/13/2003 09:17:51 AM
Lance, I really had a few chuckles with "10 Reasons..." Having served on my church's ministerial search study committee these past six months, I have heard more than my fill of comments about the type of minister we don't need. When our work began, all we heard was, "We need someone like Don" (our previous minister). Having been blessed with a very effective interim minister, now we hear, "We need someone like Elaine. Why can't we hire her?" (Her contract prohibits this.) Interesting how people's images have shifted.
Elaine prayed with me and my mother in the emergency room last Monday after my father had collapsed. (Both of my parents are active in the Church of Christ, but they sometimes visit my UCC congregation with me.)
Then on Friday, while Dad was undergoing surgery, we were visited by a couple folks from my parents' church, which is the last CoC I belonged to. One of them is an elder's wife. In the waiting room, a rather deep discussion ensued about various religious topics, and at one point she casually asked why I had left the CoC. I told her candidly that a major reason was search for a community that practiced gender equality.
Just a few minutes ago, I received a pleasant phone call from the elder's wife, whose husband suggested I visit a CoC web site for scriptural study on this issue (www.christiancourier.com/archives/womensRole.htm). I thanked her for the link and invited her to come to gal328.org. I thought I'd let the rest of you know I'm "doing my part" in Chicago.
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 1/12/2003 08:32:19 PM
I only have a couple minutes before I have to go downstairs for our Sunday meeting. Just wanted to say thanks to Julie for her message. I've been feeling very unequal to the race recently, and have been dreading Sunday rather than looking forward to it, and logged on hoping for some encouragement to get me through...and there it was. Thank you.
Jen
:::posted by Jennifer on 1/11/2003 11:02:24 PM
Thanks Lance. I just watched the Steelers coach throw a hissy fit when his team lost then I read number one and just about fell out of my chair.
:::posted by Indie on 1/11/2003 10:46:32 PM
10 Reasons Men Should Not Be Ordained
1. Men are too emotional to be ministers. Their conduct at football games shows this.
2. A man's place is in the army.
3. Some men are so handsome, they will distract women worshippers.
4. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be "unnatural" for them to do other forms of work.
5. In the New Testament account, the person who betrayed Jesus was a man. Thus, his lack of faith and ensuing punishment stands as a symbol of the subordinate position that all men should take.
6. Men are overly prone to violence. No really manly man wants to settle disputes otherwise than by fighting about it. Thus, they would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in positions of leadership.
7. To be an ordained pastor is to nurture the congregation. But this is not a traditional male role. Rather, throughout history, women have been considered to be not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more fervently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination.
8. Man was created before woman, obviously as a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation.
9. For men who have children, their duties might distract them from the responsibility of being a parent.
10. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can still sweep paths, repair the church roof, and maybe even lead singing on Father's Day. By conforming themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the Church.
--John Temple Bristow
:::posted by Lance on 1/11/2003 01:45:32 PM
Wow! We have all been busy, which has made this site so quiet. Dare we break the silence. I was preparing for a presentation at our congregational meeting tomorrow morning and wanted to share this scripture with all of you because I think it fits where we all are.
Hebrew 12:1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
And then the same verse from The Message:
Do you not see what this means-all these pioneers who blazed the way, all these veterans cheering us on? It means we'd better get on with it. Strip down, start running-and never quit! No extra spiritual fat, no parasitic sins. Keep your eyes on Jesus, who both began and finished the race we're in. Study how he did it. Because he never lost sight of where he was headed-that exhilarating finish in and with God-he could put up with anything along the way: cross, shame, whatever. And now he's there, in the place of honor, right alongside God. When you find yourselves flagging in your faith, go over that story again, item by item, that long litany of hostility he plowed through. That will shoot adrenaline into your souls.
That was all just to give you all a shot of adrenaline as you run your particular race. I know some of your races but not all. That is my wish for all of you in 2003...that you are running that race that God has set before you.
grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/10/2003 11:17:09 PM
I have read some of Mrs. Holmans' writings as well, what a lady! I heard the quote about Jesus being a woman's best friend while listening to a missionary from India talk about the freedom the Indian women found in Christ. The converted women know that Jesus is their best friend.
There is another quote from Mrs. Holman that I like, "Verily, we have grown better than could have been expected, when we have grown too wise and too good to permit what the disciples permitted as a matter of course." This phrase pops into my head when I get tired of biting my tongue. I have a feeling that I would not convey the humility of Silena Holman.
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 1/09/2003 09:17:45 AM
I love that first sentence. Jesus is woman's best friend. But that truth recieves little if any attention among Christians. Jesus' relationship with Woman was -- and continues to be -- for a major religious figure, without precedent in history. From the announcement of his birth to his dedication at the temple, through his ministry and to the cross his encounters with women are among the greatest moments in the Christian story. It is a curiosity to me that there is no eagerness in our community to focus in on Woman as a theme in our studies in the same way we focus in on popular themes. If we are really traveling with Jesus we must be prepared to break for Woman again, and again and again. What mercy? what example? did he intend to convey?
It is also interesting that those "blessings of religious and intellectual culture" have not had much impact since 1888. It is sad that the gospel cannot be accurately expressed to the world until Man has redeemed Woman as fit to tell the story of the Savior. It is one thing to be cleared of charges in court, it is another to clear your name in the hearts of your community. God can redeem Woman for initiating the Fall, but the heart is more rigid than law and cannot be forced. That is why as the numbers grow in favor of gender-justice, they will be met with increasing numbers in opposition.
I've read about Silena and from what I understand her knowledge and desire to follow scripture was uncontested. What a great lady!
:::posted by Carmen on 1/09/2003 02:23:28 AM
The following quote from Silena Holman (as cited in the Gospel Advocate, October 10, 1888) was brought to my attention recently. Perhaps this will serve as a discussion starter. I am eager to hear your responses to it.Christ and the Christian religion has been woman’s best friend. Slowly, surely, she has emerged from the darkness of heathenism into the full light of the perfect day of a Christian civilization. With the blessings of religious and intellectual culture, now freely bestowed, new vistas of thought and action open before woman, and with her strong emotional nature and loving heart, a few great souls among our women are pleading to be allowed to tell the story of the cross to the lost and ruined of mankind that they may thus assist in the conversion of the world to Christianity. While many say that women are not permitted to do any kind of public work in the gospel, and in this view are sustained by a large number of commentators, still the number of those who think that women should do public work in the gospel is growing larger and larger every day…After presenting an argument from scripture, she goes on to say:Dear brothers and sisters in the Church of Christ; these thoughts are submitted to you in all humility. In all I have written, I have not desired to invalidate a single word written by the apostle Paul. I fully believe his letters are the work of inspiration. And though, in them, I find, as the apostle Peter says of them, (2 Pet. iii: 15, 16) “Some things hard to be understood,” I am willing to stand or fall with any command he has given. My only endeavor has been to reconcile Paul with Paul, and himself with other inspired writers.
:::posted by Lance on 1/08/2003 09:06:52 PM
Vicki,
I'm excited and jealous and nervous for you all at the same time. It sounds like a thrilling scary place to be right now and I wish I was there.
Here we're just moving at glacial speed but I think God is teaching me a lot about patience through all of this. Being a person who tends to run off in whatever direction seems reasonable staying put right now is difficult but a good opportunity for growth.
Thank you everyone for reminding me that I'm not alone.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 1/05/2003 12:45:21 AM
Hello, friends.
The doors are opening faster than we can walk through them. While we've been meeting together in our home and working toward this for several weeks, tomorrow is the official beginning of a new adventure with God. We have no name, as yet. (Any suggestions?) Actually, we'd be perfectly happy without a name, but our culture seems to require it. We'll begin worshiping in, of all places, a dance studio. A bring-your-own-folding-chair arrangement. The mirrors will be a challenge! We're both excited and terrified to be heading into unknown territory.
It will not be church-as-usual. We're not just thinking outside the box. We're getting out of it. We're learning that we have made our heritage in the Churches of Christ an idol in and of itself. Understand that we love our heritage, and highly value its place in our lives. But God has been prying our fingers loose from it. At first it was quite painful, as our roots go deep. But now we've been set free from the chains that bound us. We can breathe!
When questioning out loud one day with fellow pastors about our community needing another church, one reply was that there is a megachurch of unchurched people out there. So true. Our goal is to reach as many of them with the Good News as we can.
We feel it is extremely important to begin this new family with a study about women, so that everyone understands up-front where we'll be going, and why. We are open to your ideas and suggestions, but believe we will begin this study using Joy Fleming's MAN AND WOMAN IN BIBLICAL UNITY as the basis. I find studies that take us into the letters fail to address God's intent for women. Isn't that what we should be seeking?
May 2003 be an abundant year for us all!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 1/04/2003 10:50:24 AM
Thanks Katie for the encouraging message. There are times when I feel like giving up and moving on but I do believe that God is calling me to speak and write and nudge people out of their comfortable traditions and to move into light and freedom. This forum has been great for me in the past year. You have become a community that is nurturing and thoughtful. Thank you, all of you, for your words and prayers in the past year. May God continue to bless you all and may 2003 be a year of many milestones and triumphs and that you feel the Holy Spirit in your life....moving you and holding you. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 1/01/2003 07:44:09 PM
Friends, I get a daily e-mail from the Bruderhof community (publishers of the Plow magazine and catalog). This excerpt by Christoph Blumhardt was my thought for today, the first day of the new year.
"When human generations live on for decades without being shaken and stirred up by the powerful flood of events in history, then their customs and traditions can become too cozy and too comfortable. In the end these very human constructions take the place of God. Then it happens that we are only concerned about defending our human institutions. It seems as if everything will collapse if the institutions that have grown up over the years are overturned.
"Consequently, we are often too cowardly to stand up for God's justice. We ignore the deficiencies and wrong things and become used to them so that just about anything is tolerated. We keep allowing things to go on as usual. It does not matter how much wrong there is or how many groan under it. When a voice of godly justice arises to call for what is true and right, it is reviled and repudiated and the foolishness defended."
I pray that in the new year God will endow you with courage and comfort, hope and help. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 1/01/2003 04:18:56 PM
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