The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Beverly, I am glad that you got to meet Steve. He is one of my favorite people. It is mutual. I am also glad that Sunset Ridge has been good for you. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/30/2002 03:00:45 PM
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
Julie, I met Steve Gilbert very briefly Sunday. He says that you are one of his very favorite people. We didn't get to talk for long, because we went to another Sunday School class. He helps teach an "experiential" class, and we went to the "discussion" class, which we attended the week before. It was one of the best classes/ class experiences I've ever been in, but, I wish we'd been a little braver and stayed in Steve's class.
:::posted by Beverly on 11/27/2002 11:42:53 PM
Vicki, God is obviously working in your lives. You have to tell us more of the story later. I know that your husband will continue to minister as a counselor...maybe even more than when he carried the title of minister. God will continue to work and we all will just have to hold for the ride.
Yay Zoe! I think that Deep Calls to Deep is their best. So many powerful songs. They have blessed my life with their music and with their worshipful lives.
I hope you all have a fanatastic Thanksgiving and a wonderful holiday weekend. We should all post the steps we personally have taken and our church families have taken to ensure gender justice in the past year. These are steps we can be thankful for. There will be many more steps but we should be thankful for the ones already taken. I especially want to thank Mike Cope for speaking at Zoe. You were bold and courageous and have started many conversations and sent many searching the scriptures....what more could we ask of the last year....dialogue and study. That is all we ask. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/27/2002 06:26:31 PM
I have a Thanksgiving post. I know some of you attended the Zoe conference in Nashville in October and I thought those of you who were there, or have heard about Zoe, would be interested to know that their latest CD, Deep Calls to Deep, has been nominated for a potential Grammy award in the gospel group/gospel choir category. This is a stage of voting that determines which entries will be contained in the final ballot, so they're not all the way there yet, but it's amazing that they are in the running for the ballot. One of our friends is in the group and just let me know. If any of you know anyone who is eligible to vote, let them know to vote for Zoe in this category.
Vicki, I'm glad you are finding some blessings in this situation and I will pray for your family and faith community.
--Mary Lou Hutson, Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Mary Lou on 11/27/2002 01:22:26 PM
I guess everyone is getting ready for Thanksgiving.
Vicki, its good to hear that some parts of your situation are starting to look better. It sounds like your old church family needs lots of prayer. I hope the 75% who left have found other churches to join and aren't just turned off to church all together. May God continue to bless you and your family.
Indie
:::posted by Indie on 11/27/2002 12:50:01 PM
Where is everyone?!?
I just want to send a word of thanks to all of you for standing in the gap with us. In spite of these recent events, maybe even because of them, God has been so good to us through His people. We see His light shining through them. We see His light shining brightly for us, one step at a time.
We are staying in East Texas, in the small town where we've come to know and love so many, the town where God brought us for a purpose. We have much to teach, and now they are free to learn. We are moving into a house this weekend. We are placing ads in our local paper for Phil's couseling services. (He has a PhD in Christian Counseling, something he did to serve as ministry for the community. Now it may serve us as living income.) He has been invited to preach this Sunday morning at the Fellowship of Prairie Creek. The church family we were forced to leave has dropped in numbers by 75%.
We continually covet your prayers to our Great and Mighty God for His hand to guide our every step.
Serving Him still,
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/27/2002 10:22:24 AM
Chad, I was really needing a segment of This Old Theological House last night and even checked in to see if maybe you had read my mind and had posted. I have missed you on the forum. Good to hear your voice again. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/23/2002 11:34:39 PM
Julie,
I haven't met them, yet.But, maybe tomorrow at the Thanksgiving lunch.
:::posted by Beverly on 11/23/2002 10:56:56 PM
Vicki,
That's a riot! I completely laughed out loud. Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but I think I prefer that poem to the other "prints" one.
I ran into a new book today at the bookstore (imagine that happening!) that may be of interest to readers of the forum. It's by Sarah Coakley and called _Powers and Submission_. Some of you readers of feminist theology would find this really intriguing, I think, especially because she's concerned to talk about being "vulnerable" to God and doing so through the practice of contemplative prayer. I was so engaged by the first essay in the book, I stopped and got a cup of coffee and sat down to read it. It's definitely not for the theologically-faint-of-heart (it's part of Blackwell's Challenges in Contemporary Theology series)...perhaps it might be useful on the reading list. Just passing that along for anyone interested...
Blessings,
Chad
Brookline, MA
:::posted by Chad on 11/23/2002 06:14:51 PM
Friends,
I have not posted in a while, but I have been following the forum. Vicki's experience has grieved me. It brought back childhood memories of the revolving ministerial door which was so confusing. It still is. I also wanted to speak a word of encouragement to Lance and Katie. You are speaking truth. Prophets in their hometown.....you know the rest. The gift of prophecy (truth telling) has never been very popular, but always very necessary. It is especially necessary now. I am prayerful about my own speaking out about truth. I am need of wisdom and discernment. I know that I need to speak out but the "when, where, how and to whom" are my challenges.
In the meantime, I continue to read and self-educate. I am currently reading a book recommended to me by a friend who is a feminist and a Catholic. The book is entitled "Veiled and Silenced: How Culture Shaped Sexist Theology", by Alvin John Schmidt. Thus far, it is enlightening and thought provoking. He refers to a "cafeteria style hermeneutic" in culture where we pick and choose what suits us from scripture. Ouch. I was wondering if anyone has read this book and what thoughts you might have.
Blessings,
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 11/23/2002 12:42:59 PM
Beverly, Have you had a chance to meet my friends at Sunset Ridge? Steve and Kim Gilbert and a new friend, Eli...youth minister and worship leader. There are all wonderful people. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/23/2002 11:02:12 AM
Lance & Katie - Hope you have a contract. One can be homeless in a heartbeat when living on "church property".
I got this in my inbox this a.m. At some risk of being offensive (it uses a word we don't use in our home), it makes a point. (Joe, Lance - If you feel it's inappropriate, delete it w/o offense to me.)
BUTT PRINTS IN THE SAND
One night I had a wondrous dream,
One set of footprints there was seen,
The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.
But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord," What have we here?"
Those prints are large and round and neat.
"But Lord, they are too big for feet."
"My child," He said in somber tones,
"For miles I carried you alone.
I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait."
"You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of faith, you would not know,
So I got tired, I got fed up.
And there I dropped you on your butt."
"Because in life, there comes a time,
When one must fight, and one must climb,
When one must rise and take a stand,
Or leave their butt prints in the sand."
Have a great day!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/23/2002 10:28:39 AM
Beverly,
Good to hear from you again. We live on church grounds, so I guess we aren't willing to cross the street for gender justice. [smile]
BTW, don't forget to hit "Post & Publish" so comments will be sent to the forum page on the site.
:::posted by Lance on 11/23/2002 10:14:21 AM
"Do you have in mind how far God might call you to go in service of the imperative of gender justice?"
Well, Larry and I drive 30 miles to Sunset Ridge. Does that count? :)
Here's an update on the New Braunfels church. The elders announced that they would be studying the issue, and that there is some inconsistency in the current practice at the church. But, in the meantime, there will be no change, other than the study.
Two of the elders were kind enough to come visit Larry and I in order to tell us this. They were a little surprised when I asked whether the study would be public, but immediately said it could be.
And, when they left... they asked me to pray. Monster big step, as far as I can tell.
:::posted by Beverly on 11/22/2002 09:41:43 PM
Lance, At your invitation, I read "In Our Lifetime?" again. It was one of the first articles I read after being brought to this site last April. I had no idea at that time the personal implications for me in her question, "Do you have in mind how far God might call you to go in service of the imperative of gender justice?"
All the way.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/20/2002 04:36:57 PM
It has really been refreshing to see this good thinking on this question. It goes to show that gender justice is not a discreet issue; it travels with new thinking about a lot of things including the category: “Is it a salvation issue?”
For a good conversation partner for this discussion about “preference” vs. “imperative” see Katie's "In Our Lifetime?"
:::posted by Lance on 11/20/2002 03:57:31 PM
Vicki, I think that is a wonderful reinterpretation of the category “salvation issue.” It reminds me of something Katie says about church fights: “Would you be willing to have this argument at the foot of the cross, with him hanging there in pain?” In other words, many issues just don't have the gravitas to be in the same game with the cross. If you can't imagine Jesus dying for it, move on. This is just one of the things that Jürgen Moltmann meant when he wrote in The Crucified God: “...[T]he cross is the test of everything that deserves to be called Christian.”
Unfortunately, that is not what the phrase “salvation issue” has meant and it is not generally what Church of Christ people mean when they ask if you believe gender justice is a salvation issue. It is so frustrating to talk to people who have such a stunted vocabulary of faith. Can you imagine the conversation with God in heaven: “Well, I guess I could have treated women justly, but I was under the impression that I didn't have to in order to get here.” How is it that so many followers of Jesus of Nazareth (who on the way to “emptying himself” said: “those who want to save their life will lose it”) have structured their religious thought and practice around an obsession with saving themselves? The mind boggles.
:::posted by Lance on 11/19/2002 11:20:19 AM
I think I'm hearing different understandings of what one means by "essential", "salvation issue", etc. I'll share mine, and encourage others to do the same.
I see it as a salvation issue, not in the terms of "if you don't get it/believe it/understand it you can't/won't be saved", but in the fact that returning womankind to her original, equal, Pre-Fall status was ONE of the reasons/sins for which Christ died on the cross. (I tried to write this last night and it was clear as mud. I hope this is at least opaque.) He didn't die solely for our daily sins, but for all the sins of the whole world, going all the way back to the Garden. And He didn't do it so we (women) would be recognized/rewarded only in heaven, but here on earth, as well. We (women) are Satan's worst enemy. Christ redeemed us, not only from our own personal sins, but also from the "original" sin, and its consequences. I'll quit. I think I've gone to rambling, and I'm going to confuse myself any second now.
As to our personal turmoil, GOD IS SO GOOD!!! He is so great! He pours out on us His love and compassion continuously. Lance, there WILL be a story of redemption. I am in awe as I see the scenes unfolding before my very eyes.
Serving Him still,
Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/19/2002 09:06:52 AM
"Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." -- A. Lincoln
:::posted by TWD on 11/19/2002 08:34:46 AM
Gender Justice: Preference or Essence?
As someone who considers himself to be an ecumenical Christian, I am constantly challenged to find unity amidst our diversity, even when there are certain teachings and practices I cannot understand or abide. Ultimately what unites us is our common profession of faith in Jesus as the Christ.
That being said, every church community is called to faithfully live out its understanding of the Body of Christ. I once attended a church where, on the monthly worship service roster, there was a statement that read, "Please keep in mind that we strive to maintain a 50/50 representation of men and women in each service." Another church was more casual in that, on any given Sunday, the two elders at the table might be a man and a woman, two women, or two men. How each church executed gender justice was a matter of preference, but the commitment was essential.
The last time I visited my parents' Church of Christ was a couple years ago to attend the funeral of an old friend. As I saw a procession of men and men only approach the pulpit to lead prayers and remembrances, something seemed strange. Frankly I felt uncomfortable. Recently I learned that that some members of that congregation have begun questioning why women can't serve communion, but so far, only in the realm of a Sunday School kaffeeklatsch. If things are the way I remember them, before those conversations go too far, some politically astute person will say, "You know, it wouldn't bother me, but what about old so-and-so? We wouldn't want to upset him."
Truly, what we are up against is "preference," steeped in decades of tradition. To overcome that, we must get fired up and look at gender justice as an essential issue in our communities. In the words of an old hymn*, "Though the cause of evil prosper, / Yet 'tis truth alone is strong: / Though [its] portion be the scaffold, / And upon the throne be wrong; / Yet that scaffold sways the future, / And, behind the dim unknown, / Standeth God within the shadow / Keeping watch above [God's] own."
Kirk
* ("Once to Every Man and Nation," James Russell Lowell, alt.).
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/19/2002 01:52:15 AM
Hello, my sisters and brothers!
Keep those prayers flowing. We are in the midst of making some very important decisions. God is moving hard and fast in this small town in East Texas. If He would just send that special delivery letter outlining step-by-step His plans for us! At a more appropriate time, I will share with you some of the phenominal blessings He's given us in the eye of this storm.
Today is a good day. God is still God!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/19/2002 12:23:04 AM
Shelly
Ack, no I haven't finished yet as things have been really busy (haven't even checked the board in a couple of weeks). However, as far as I've gotten (about halfway plus a bit of skipping ahead), its still quite good. I think a couple of his points may be a bit weak, but the weaknesses are nonessential. In fact, he admits some places where his methods only give an indication of direction to go but are not absolute proofs and generally handles consistency well. I've also ran across a patriarchial/traditional site that has a "rebuttal" argument that both admits value in Webbs work and whose rebuttual I find weaker than the weaknesses its attacking.
I've also shared what I've seen with one of our elders who has a similar bent in biblical interpretation and he went out and bought it and has started and and seems real excited. He's previously come off as sympathetic but a bit of a fence sitter. I'm hoping this will pull him over onto our side of the fence.
I'll let you guys know when I finish it off. I'm currently working through whether the curse was transcultural or cultural (he obviously makes a case that its cultural) and am about to start on his section on creation order as it relates to primogeniture (i.e. the historic practice of giving most of the inheritance to the eldest).
Vicky, my prayers are with your family,
--Jason
:::posted by Jason on 11/18/2002 10:44:50 PM
Just wanted to share something that happened yesterday at our regular small groups leaders meeting.
I have had it on my heart for the past month or so to start a regular worship assembly. I want to model it off the form they use at Stamford (thank you Dale) and have it be completely God centered. The basic premise is that no one ever stands up front. The program is set, but it is led from the audience and God is the focus. Also there would be some time for unscripted speaking/ praying/ praising/ etc from the audience as well. I was thinking we could do it at our home and perhaps in time move it to the church offices (we don't own a building to worship in) if there was enough support for it. Well,at the meeting yesterday, one of the elders mentioned that they were hoping for a monthly worship time at the offices on Sunday nights. I told him about my idea. He encouraged me to run with it. He is sympathetic to gender justice issues so I asked him if anyone would have a problem with my leading it. He thought about it and said that if my husband and I led it together he couldn't see anyone having a problem with that. (He is aware of the stir I caused when I asked a female friend to baptize me). So starting in January this is my baby. I'm very excited and nervous about it. In general I don't consider things like this to be my area of giftedness but God has placed it so firmly on my heart and now has opened the way for me that I can't refuse to do it.
On the issue of preference versus essential. I don't think understanding gender justice is necessary to go to heaven. But then there is very little that I do believe is essential. Most of our standard practice is extra icing on the cake of faith (to put it very simply). That said I do think that it is essential to strive to imitate Christ. I see gender justice, among other things, as imitation of Christ. So in that sense it is essential.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/18/2002 09:44:01 PM
Carmen,
I was very excited to read your post and inside I was saying, "yes, yes, she gets it!" When I first started studying this topic and reread Galatians, I was puzzled by the way we have addressed gender equality in light of the rest of the book. Paul says, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female." He then proceeds in chapters 4 and 5 to address whether the church should compromise on circumcision--in essence, whether it is a core issue or not, or in your terms, a salvation issue. In chapter 5 he says, "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you." The fact that he gives this teaching as his own "I, Paul. . ." is significant because when he has a revelation from the Spirit on a topic, he identifies it as such; when it is his own interpretation he identifies it as his own. This teaching is his own interpretation.
It's unclear how far we can extrapolate from the teaching on circumcision to the teaching on gender. Prior posts here have talked about the comparisons between our discussions now on gender, and an earlier generation's struggle to deal with slavery. Clearly in Philemon, Paul does not come down as hard on slavery as he does here on circumcision.
But if we believe that Paul's teaching on circumcision does extend to gender (and I think it does; perhaps not in his own day, but certainly in our own), then yes, gender equality is a salvation issue. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fellowship those who disagree with us, but it does mean we should not back down and agree with them that it is only a matter of preference. If it's a matter of preference, it's about the same degree of preference as preferring to be baptized by immersion. We have clear commands for both.
--Mary Lou Hutson
Charlotte, NC
:::posted by Christopher on 11/18/2002 07:53:40 PM
To me gender justice is so much more than a preference issue. In fact, nothing makes me knee-jerk respond to someone more than them suggesting that it just happens to be my preference. It has so much more to do with who we are in Christ and that in Christ there is no hierarchy. We are free!!! All of us are free to walk directly into the throne room. We all get to enter the holy of holies. The cross did that and no one can take that away from me. Their interpretation of the scripture and their traditions can't take that away. Their authority as an elder can't take that away. And just because they are male they can't take that away. Two songs come to mind as I am ranting here. One we sang yesterday as we were for the first time experiencing just the beginnings of gender inclusive worship....We give thee but thine own, whate'er that gift may be: All that we have is thine alone, a trust, O Lord, from thee. ...Go back yourself and sing that song to yourself...all the words...all the verses. God entrusted us with talents...no one can hold those talents down. The other song is on the new Zoe cd. It is also an old hymn. One of the phrases is...no tongue can bid me thence depart. And the beginning ...Before the throne of God above I have a strong, a perfect plea, a great high priest whose name is love who ever lives and pleads for me. My name is graven on his hands, my name is written on his heart.... God has me on his heart and he has a plan for me. Men cannot decide what that plan will be...only God can! Sorry...I tend to get on my soapbox. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/18/2002 05:13:17 PM
Jason (Lacoss-Arnold) I was wondering how you ended up with Webb's book? We haven't had your final book report . . .
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 11/18/2002 03:50:35 PM
As long as gender justice is looked at as a "preference" issue, it will never see the light of day.
-v.
:::posted by Vicki on 11/18/2002 02:32:51 PM
Carmen - I have only read the first line of your post. I'm going to respond, then read the rest.
I believe the two are so closely intertwined in a way that we can't fully comprehend, that I have to say YES. Did not Christ die on the Cross to take us back to Pre-Fall sinlessness? Didn't that state of sinlessness include equality? So, yes, it is a salvation issue to me.
Now, I'll read the rest of your post, and see if we think alike.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/18/2002 02:28:07 PM
Last week a friend asked me if I thought gender-justice was a salvation issue. It had not ocourred to me before, so I asked her if it mattered. She responded that if I stated that gender-justice is simply a preference issue, I might be able to crack open a conversation with the leadership. I think I understand what she is suggesting. Stating that gender-justice is a preference is far less threatening than attaching it to salvation. Perhaps gender-justice would be less confrontational and approachable if we placed it squarely on the preference side of the line which keeps one open to fellowship over differences. I, for one, certainly don't want to part fellowship with those in the past, present and future who practice traditional role-keeping practices which keep the women at a distance. As much wrong as I see in it, I have also seen some value in patriarchy. I know from experience that one can find spiritual value in living on the fringe of the church ... so much so that I sometimes feel I would miss it if my church restructured to gender-justice. Even with forty years of mandatory isolation, I see my "silent life" as a spiritual path. I found a solitude in silence that I might never have found in more inclusive circumstances. I met salvation there. I'm not so sure that I want to close the door and throw away the key. It was in silence that God taught me that gender-justice is essential to Him, even if not to my church. God placed an "essential" burden on me to share that message against my personal desire and will. I'm fine with the knowledge that God's grace, without male intervention, is enough for me. I would "prefer" to leave it at that. But the Spirit has other ideas ... and I am learning that silence is the context of speech. The logic of silence and the wilderness will always be revealed in time. So in my personal journey, I am seeing that gender-justice is essential for MY salvation ... that Christ alone is my salvation and that my own preferences are reduced to whining in the shadow of the larger truth and will of God. But, in the church sense, should gender-justice an "essential salvation issue" or a "preference issue?" Before I tackle that one, I need to say that we invest the word "salvation" with too little power and territory. We reduce the word to mean that moment when we will enter into the heavenly kingdom of God at the "moment of salvation" or, for some, at the moment of judgement. I have learned that salvation means so much more! God is living in the here and now and I am living in God, so I am living in salvation. God saves me from more than myself -- my sins -- God redeems me from you and you from me too. Because of Christ's perfect sacrifice, this perfect redemption happens moment by moment. Salvation is not a happening, it is a lifestyle. Living in salvation is no longer a preference for me, it is essential for my existence as a child of God and allows me to function as such. Living in God has allowed me to see God and my place in the Body. I see the wholeness of the Body ... there is no division of castes ... every part serves another part ... I can bask in the perfection of it! Since wholeness is essential to efficiency and effectiveness, the question is not so much is gender-justice essential or preferential, it should be, "Why would the Body 'prefer' to operate with an atrophied arm and leg?" or "Is it 'essential' for the Body to be whole?" ... has the traditional model effectively and efficiently served a 'salvation' that a wounded world can afford? Is flawed sufficient?
:::posted by Carmen on 11/18/2002 02:04:39 PM
Vicki,
I too have been praying for you, today especially. I'm sure it is one of the hardest from this past week. I too understand being attacked for simply asking questions and attempting to do what is right. You are not alone. We can let God use these times to transform us to become like Christ. Not much comfort but at least you are in good company.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/17/2002 10:42:33 PM
God is still God!
I love you all!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/17/2002 10:25:07 PM
Vicki,
You and your family were mentioned in our prayer time today as well. Several people who read the forum have written to show their support. Just wanted you to know that you are not alone.
:::posted by Lance on 11/17/2002 09:11:11 PM
I had to come here this afternoon for many reasons...Vicki, we prayed for you and your family today. Such a painful story and there were a few moist eyes as I told your story. Many of us have been wounded by those who believe they are doing the right thing. I believe that many in that room this morning had been in your place for other reasons over the years and were feeling your pain this morning.
The other reason I had to come here was to let you know how this morning went. Two couples served communion and we had a large crowd. It seemed larger than normal but I don't know the real numbers. It felt right and like we normally had women doing this particular task. The women were attentive as the communion oration was spoken and even nodded along in agreement. The men always seem so solemn and usually a little scowly(is that a word?). When our minister got up he commented that one of the women had thanked him for passing her back the communion tray and then smiled at him. He said that had never happened to him in the years he had taken communion and that is was so incredibly refreshing. The women were only serving communion silently and yet they made a difference. We have been missing something and now we will know what those things were. I am so thankful that God has lead us here and that I didn't give up on my church family. That's not to say that they weren't many times when I almost walked. I will continue to let you know how things are going in the hopes that it gives you encouragement and that it is possible. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/17/2002 02:37:21 PM
Most of you, my cyber-siblings and friends, won't read this before you go to worship this morning. (Indeed, one of the things I like best about this forum is how little activity there is on the weekend -- makes me think you all have better things to do, which is just right.) But I can't go to worship this morning without expressing to you all how heavy my heart has been on learning Vicki's news. The hard reality that the safety of this space is not always, or even usually, transferable to the contexts in which we serve and live makes me ache deep inside. I've thought of a thousand ways to respond to you, Vicki, that would tread the fine line between expressing my sorrow and offering an apology. I very much want to do the former but have to keep myself from doing the latter (not, I expect, that you would accept it anyway).
Grief is inarticulate. There aren't any perfect words, though Fritz's post a day or so ago was darn close. This morning we will let the Holy Spirit translate our wordless pain into poetry, wherever we are worshiping. Vicki, you and your family will be lifted up before the Father countless times in countless places. He knows your names already, of course. Let him soothe you, and we will ask him for wisdom and means to be his blessing for you as best we can.
We Christians live in the meantime, the in-between time when God has already but not yet redeemed his entire creation from enslavement to sin. Sometimes we yearn so acutely for the day when "every knee will bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord." This is one of those times for me. Till then, Vicki and all my fellow disciples, "May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit” (Romans 15:13).
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 11/17/2002 08:56:53 AM
We're doing OK. God is good.
Can anyone explain to me why people are so afraid of studying Scripture? Don't they want to be shown if they've been wrong about something, or to reaffirm they were right? People confuse me. I scare people. They don't quite know what to do with me. I was silent like they wanted for a long time. Then one of my elders said he wanted the old Vicki back, wanted me happy, active and excited again. So, I began to crawl out of the prison they had placed me in. I was subtle, but not silent. I used the written word, not my voice. Not once have I been demanding, aggressive or ugly. All I ever asked for was a study. I have been bursting at the seams to share with someone all that I have learned these past months. When I first came to this place (gal328), I was a "doing" thinker. It didn't take long for me to "get it" and become a "being" thinker. I just wanted the opportunity to share. They read Katie's article as a threat. I was hoping it would bring study.
I must be rambling again. It's VERY early Sunday morning. We're going to worship with some charismatic friends in a few hours. I will be thinking of my own church family, and weeping, I'm sure, for lost opportunities.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/17/2002 02:03:10 AM
Thank you, David.
:::posted by Vicki on 11/15/2002 11:53:02 PM
Although Nicholas Wolterstorff (1987, Lament for a Son, Grand Rapids: Eerdman's) wrote in grief over the loss of his 25 year-old son, I believe these words apply to posts of recent days.
"'Blessed are those who mourn.' What can it mean? . . . why does he hail the mourners of the world? Why cheer tears? It must be that mourning is also a quality of character that belongs to the life of his realm.
"Who then are the mourners? The mourners are those who have caught a glimpse of God's new day, who ache with all their being for that day's coming, and who break out into tears when confronted with its absence. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm of peace there is no one blind and who ache whenever they see someone unseeing. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm there is no one hungry and who ache whenever they see someone starving. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm there is no one falsely accused and who ache whenever they see someone imprisoned unjustly. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm there is no one who fails to see God and who ache whenever they see someone unbelieving. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm there is no one who suffers oppression and who ache whenever they see someone beat down. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm there is no one without dignity and who ache whenever they see someone treated with indignity. They are the ones who realize that in God's realm of peace there is neither death nor tears and who ache whenever they see someone crying tears over death. The mourners are aching visionaries.
"Such people Jesus blesses; he hails them, he praises them, he salutes them. And he gives them the promise that the new day for whose absence they ache will come. They will be comforted.
"The Stoics of antiquity said: Be calm. Disengage yourself. Neither laugh nor weep. Jesus says: Be open to the wounds of the world. Mourn humanity's mourning, weep over humanity's weeping, be wounded by humanity's wounds, be in agony over humanity's agony. But do so in the good cheer that a day of peace is coming" (pp. 84-86).
:::posted by Fritz on 11/15/2002 09:44:53 PM
We are all so wounded! It is a testimony to the power of Jesus that we still believe. We have to keep talking, shouting, standing up for what we know is right, praising God and allowing him to lead. We can't keep things in the dark. They fester there and others end up in that dark place. God is light. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/15/2002 01:55:05 PM
Kirk, My husband, after 15 years, is still reeling from being spiritually backhanded by the men of the church over a situation with a child-molester. My husband was not a minister, but a very trusted member who worked with the children. When two children came to him and reported that a member of the church was exposing himself to their neighborhood friends, he and the minister conducted a quiet investigation. The results were very disturbing. They found a long history of accusations of fondeling and child-molestation, but no convictions. Together they went to the member who called his lawyer and threatened to sue the church if either my husband or the minister told anyone ... including a woman friend at church who he was dating who had two daughters. Long story. The bottom line is that in the next few minutes the member leaked the news that he was under investigation for child molestation and my husband and the minsiter were off the hook to consult with the church about a coorporate solution at the "mens business meeting." Now the story is the same as yours short of a formal disfellowshipping. Even when the member found a new girlfriend in church and was convicted two years later for molesting her daughters and spent eight years in jail for it, only a few women with daughters apologised for their husband's harsh treatment of my husband and the minister who also was pressured to leave for his "unforgiving attitude." These stories of protecting men in their sexual exploits contrasts with the many times I have seen girls forced up the aisle by their fathers and humiliated by the minister when it has been disclosed that they are pregnant out of wedlock.
:::posted by Carmen on 11/15/2002 11:47:15 AM
Vicki, I am troubled by your situation, and hope that you will soon begin to explore new and better opportunities. I hope you are encouraged to know that there are others whom you've never met who are praying for your family.
I know what it is like to have people you love reject you for seeking the truth. When I was in junior high school, my family and I were formally "disfellowshipped" from a Church of Christ. This action was carried out by "the men" of the church, with a letter signed by nearly every baptized male, including teenage boys.
Those same "men" had hired a minister--an acquaintance of one of our most powerful leaders--without conducting a proper search and screening process. After the minister was installed, my parents contacted the elders of his previous church to learn something about his background. In fact, they learned that he had been discharged for sexual misconduct. When this was brought to the attention of our leadership, the "old boys' club" rallied around their beloved preacher and excommunicated us.
Approximately two years later, my family received a series of phone calls from "the women" of our old congregation. One by one, they called to apologize for their withdrawal of fellowship. They conveyed the news that their husbands had just terminated the minister for (guess what?) admitted sexual misconduct--with another church employee. (By the way, the women made it clear that they were apologizing on behalf of their husbands, though we received no letter!)
Although that experience was painful, it resulted in an opportunity for my family to grow into another congregation that better suited our needs. Also, because of the bizarre manner in which "the men" rejected us and "the women" attempted reconciliation, it also led me to ask questions. Why was it that the church was run by men only? What might have happened had women shared equally in leadership? Of course, all those questions led me to where I am today (in a gender-equal church which happens to have a woman minister).
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/15/2002 12:57:11 AM
Vicki,
This is one of those times when God calls on us to do one of the hardest parts of following Him: let go and trust in Him. He'll do what's necessary. ("I believe, help me in my unbelief." I have the hardest time practicing what I preach.)
Can I help?
Beverly (hocndoc--@--flash.net just remove the hyphens)
:::posted by Beverly on 11/15/2002 12:07:33 AM
Vicki,
I've been too busy to post till now but know that I have been keeping up and praying for you and your family. I don't have anything profound to say, just a hug for each of you.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/14/2002 04:05:28 PM
Thank you all for the emails, postings, prayers, and virtual hugs. You don't know how much it means.
Lance-
Please, don't be sorry. Any part you played was in helping me grow closer to being God's person in the world. What could be better than that? God has something in mind. I can feel it. We are all hurting deeply, yes. But trusting all the more.
Karen,
Send us an email (pcox@lcii.net). We are interested in talking with you. (We were just in Mesquite Saturday. But, I guess you already knew that.)
Keeping our eyes on the Cross,
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/14/2002 03:48:11 PM
All,
I cannot begin to express my appreciation to all of you for supporting Vicki. My heart is breaking for her family. I feel so detached and far away from her right now; it helps to know that she has acceptance, love, and support from all of you.
Thank you,
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 11/14/2002 03:04:54 PM
Lance is assisting me in making this post until I am a full-fledged member of this forum (Let's just say Blogger.com and I have had DIFFICULTIES communicating).
By way of introduction my name is Karen Beck. I live in Rockwall, TX and I have been reading the remarks on this forum from day one. I have SO enjoyed listening. This really is a place where I feel I can talk (eventually)...Thank you.
Vickie, the news that you have shared with the group regarding your husband's firing is what prompted this post. I kept thinking that you and I would eventually interact on this discussion board and perhaps meet up since we only live an hour away from each other. Now the disturbing news about your personal circumstances makes this introduction urgent.
Our congregation is young, but very vibrant. A church search committee will soon be looking for a pulpit minister. I would be happy to visit with you via personal e-mail regarding the specifics. Or if God intends that you stay in Lindale...I would like to know how I might be able to assist you and your husband in establishing a congregation where Gender Justice matters.
Hello to all...Karen
:::posted by Lance on 11/14/2002 02:51:57 PM
Vicki,
I’m so sorry to hear your news. Your last few days testify to the terrible truth that there is real power in fear—power only to destroy, but real power nonetheless. I pray that your story will finally be told as one of resurrection power—but I know it is far too soon to speak or think much about that now.
Your experience is a test for all of us who care deeply about gender justice in the church. It humbles me to contemplate anew the dangers of our task and the suffering we are called to as disciples. It is especially troubling to remember that the risks we take may well lead to suffering in others. Reading your story I feel some responsibility for what you and your family are experiencing. To quote my statement on the “Join Us” page:What is truly needed are disciples who are willing to fearlessly pray and practice gender justice everyday day in marriage, at work, and in our churches.Such a statement might well include a disclaimer: “May result in being brutally terminated in some contexts.” Whatever responsibility I feel for your situation, I hear you saying that you are experiencing the pain of responsibility acutely, especially in reference to the suffering of your children. I can only say what I truly feel: I am so sorry.
This website is the practical result of my own deeply held conviction that some forum was needed for the clear and uncompromised articulation of a vision for gender justice in the church. The resulting community exists in a kind of no-where space. There is literally no Church of Christ I know of—including the one I minister to—that would long tolerate the ethos of this place as its own. As a result, articles and statements that appear here may well have disorienting or even incendiary effects in other contexts. At this moment, you know that better than anyone, I suppose.
I expect you also know that “getting along” with the status quo is a slow-burning fire—a rust in the heart that takes its full toll in time. So which will it be, quick and painful or slow and painful? But we confess that there is a balm in Gilead…
My heart is with you. I pray God’s peace for you and your family. May God guide you all to a place where your service in the Kingdom may bear much fruit. If I get any clue where that place might be, you’ll be the first to know.
Peace,
Lance
:::posted by Lance on 11/14/2002 12:44:48 PM
Good morning, Friends.
Our heads are still spinning and our hearts are still breaking. I thought you might be interested in knowing that Katie's article, "WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?", was offensive to some, enough to warrant a war party. I stuck my neck out just a little too far, and they shot my husband through the heart. My own heart is breaking, knowing that the sobs I hear from my children and their friends comes from something I've done. Nevertheless, I stand by Katie's words as powerful, valid and true. I am appalled by the ungodly, unethical behavior of a self-chosen group of men who felt they had the right to make these decisions, claiming to represent the majority (we were told it was unanimous - an outright lie). I am angry that we have been given no explanation. Even the church body is only told, "Trust us." I can't imagine what some of them may think we/he/I have done. The church will split, not because of us, but because of how we've been treated. I can't help but wonder, don't they know that if they felt we were no longer right for this church body that we could have helped them make a smooth transition so that not one member need be lost?
Thanks for being my listening ear.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/14/2002 10:08:16 AM
Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.
Thank you, Julie. We are aware of their search. I'm sure they'll be getting a resume soon.
For the next 2 weeks this email is good: pcox@lcii.net . Send us anything you know about.
A group has come to us, as we knew they would, about starting a new church here. Some of them formally withdrew tonight. We are open to whatever God wants. Pray that we'll know what that is with certainty and confidence. Also, pray for my brothers and sisters at the North Lindale Church of Christ who are now in deep turmoil.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/14/2002 01:10:22 AM
Vicki, I was serious earlier when I said that a congregation near us that has had full participation of women for at least several years is looking for someone. Please email me and I will get information for you. The congregation is in Columbia, Maryland. Great area! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/13/2002 09:16:35 PM
Vicki,
May God richly bless you and your husband. As a preacher's kid and grandkid and nephew, I know first hand the trauma you must be going through, and my heart aches for you. Know that you are loved by fellow disciples, even those of us who have never met either of you face to face, because that's what our Father calls us to do. I know that God has something in store for both of you.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/13/2002 02:12:47 PM
Vicki,
You can ask Lance for my email. There are a couple of pulpits open in our area. I'm so sorry to hear of this ... I am praying for you.
-- Carmen
San Diego
:::posted by Carmen on 11/13/2002 01:20:01 PM
Kirk,
My husband and I do plan to visit the Torry Pines Christian Church. We are very familiar with it. Our son's choir has rehearsals there. Also, I agree that I should compliment the positive intent of the leadership regarding the deacon installation or ordination or whatever it is called -- I'm sure the elders are getting some negative feedback.
:::posted by Carmen on 11/13/2002 01:17:23 PM
To my 3:28 friends: If you know of any positions open for a pulpit minister, we are looking NOW. My husband was fired this morning, without explanation. He has to be out of his office by 4pm today, and we have to be out of the house in 2 weeks. We are devastated.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/13/2002 01:08:54 PM
Has anyone heard from Beverly N. lately?
:::posted by Carmen on 11/12/2002 06:12:43 PM
Julie, although change is sometimes bittersweet, congratulations on your church's transition! You and every member of this forum are making history.
Even as you work to maintain internal harmony following your vote, you may well face some external challenges once other Churches of Christ learn of your decision. Outsiders who do not know the complete story may question your motives or place labels on your church. Perhaps you have had discussions about how to respond to this. On the other hand, you may find equality-minded folks in neighboring churches who will visit and want guidance. It's important that you have leaders who can articulate your position in a positive, inspiring way. Good luck spreading the word!
Do your youth play an active role in worship? If so, I hope someone is encouraging your young women and men to explore their gifts. During my college years, I briefly served as a youth leader. Recently, while searching the web for "people from the past," I was stunned to find that one of the teens in our youth group back in the mid-80's is now serving as a minister in North Carolina! A local newspaper published a feature article about her hiring. It told how, when she first arrived, she used her artistic gifts to paint a portrait of each member of the church as a way of getting to know them. I thought to myself, "That's just the Jolin I remember. . . ." And that's the kind of wonderful thing that can happen when women are free to serve.
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/12/2002 02:48:35 AM
Julie,
That is great. I misunderstood the decisions your congregation had made. I know of one congregation that allows women to pass communion but nothing else. Great big strides! I so wish I was there with all of you.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/11/2002 11:04:25 PM
Patty, I truly don't feel like this is a baby step for us because this is just the beginning. We will add women to read and pray and do communion oration and then speak. I don't think this part will be a long process. The man who is scheduling the participants is ready to continue adding women as they have signed up to do different things in the service. We have had women teaching mixed adult classes for a couple of years at least. That has been so good for us as a church family. I think this step to public inclusion is the most significant for us. I still feel like pinching myself because it doesn't seem possible. The day that we had the vote several people said to Ann and I...so I guess you're happy now....and did you do a little happy dance?...and some other variations of those statements and questions. The truth was that I sobbed as the prayer was said to close our congregational meeting for the vote to include women. This was a long and hard journey that I almost lost myself and my church family on...so the answer is no! I didn't do a little happy dance. There was a great deal of loss and pain on this journey. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/11/2002 10:45:05 PM
D'Esta Love said this past weekend at ElderLink, "God gifted me with words, but placed me in a silent tradition." At 62, she is near the end of 9 years of work on her own MDiv. It's never too soon, never too late, to be the person God is calling us to be.
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/11/2002 05:25:42 PM
I think that is why the c of c was such a good fit for my parents so many years ago. I was raised beleiving that being right was very important and if you were wrong it was because you didn't try hard enough to be right. That is a legacy I'm still trying to out grow. They are good people doing the best that they knew. Perhaps it is the yankee spirit in them and in me.
I didn't used to spend time in the closet. I hung out in the open but eventually the constant warefare wore me out and I retreated. My wonderful husband found me in my closet and joined me there. But he hasn't been through the battles I have and he easily sticks his head out to look arround. Soon enough when I go to grad school there will be no more protective closet to hide in. After all what else does a MDiv student prepare to do but preach? I have burned so many bridges in my life. So many relationships invested in and lost over this issue. God sent me Jason when I was ready to give up on finding a non-patriarchal man. I was willing to settle for the soft patriarchy that my parents and other friends have.
This group awakens in me again my desire to be working on this issue but I don't know where to start. I'm stuck. I love the church of Christ. I beleive in the power of God to change institutions. I see in scripture times when sticking it out is the best thing and other times when leaving is the best thing. I have friends who have left the churches of Christ in search of a more egalitarian fellowship. Most of them have young daughters. But others beleive that change is coming so they stay and maintain unity. The thought of leaving my congregation when so many positive steps have been taken seems wrong and yet I don't know that any more steps will be taken any time soon.
Thanks for letting me think out loud here today. So few people can actually hear what I am saying.
Julie I am so thrilled for your congregations baby steps. I have served communion and prayed and led singing and it is an awesome, humbling thing to do. I know why men want to keep it all to themselves. :-)
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/11/2002 04:48:14 PM
Patty, you don't have to do everything perfectly. You only have to do. God is covering and guiding you. He doesn't get hung up on our mistakes. That is the Church of Christ's biggest problem. We need to learn to trust the Spirit. I don't think I have spent much time in the closet...I am sure there are many out there who wish that I had spent more time there. I, too, love the church of Christ and would have a difficult time leaving and yet there are many who have told me that I should've done just that. I should've left and let the church of Christ be as it always has been. I have been told I am divisive and a rebel and that it would be better if I had just found another church where women already have full citizenship. I chose to stick it out and if you know me at all, you know that I am much more of a facilitator for unity than for division. Yes, there are moments when I am frustrated and angry at the those who have chosen the patriarchal system and want them to see things my way but I have tried to lead by example and not use words. It seems that words provoke anger quicker than action. Maybe that is the coward's way out. But that is the route I have chosen.
By the way, this Sunday is our first. Women will be serving communion. Pray. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/11/2002 12:49:30 PM
Vicky- Thank you for sharing that quote. I know that I tend to hold things to tightly and haven't figured out how to loosen my grip yet on so many of them. I thank God for prying my fingers loose even though it hurts when he does.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/11/2002 12:40:27 PM
Dear Patty - The closet has been a safe place for us, hasn' it? But God is calling us to carry His message, so we have to come out into the open, trusting Him to be our Shield, knowing they can hurt the body, the mind and the heart, but not the soul. And yes, some will die on the battlefield. But some will get through! Some have gotten through! And so will we.
I came across this quote this morning that I'd read before, but this time I heard it through the question of: To CoC, or not to Coc? The quote is from Corrie Ten Boom: "I've learned to hold everything loosely because it hurts when God pries my fingers from it." And so I ask myself, do I hold on to the fellowship and my heritage of the churches of Christ too tightly? Does it get in the way of my view of God? Sometimes, yes. Often, yes. And I think others hold on too tightly, too. When the answers to our questions come from tradition, rather than Scripture, our view of God is blurred or even blocked. We can't see Him. We can't hear Him. Is it no wonder churches have a need for Conflict Resolution services? When churches - the churches of Christ in particular - prefer comfort over God's guiding hand, it's time to close the doors, shake the dust off our feet, and move on. Until that time comes, if it comes, we'll keep doing what we're doing, being what we're being: God's message bearer, sometimes brave, courageous and bold, sometimes scared to death.
Trying to find a place where I am free to be God's person,
Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/11/2002 11:38:02 AM
Amen Vicki!
I passed along Katie's new article to one of our closet sisters. She stood up in the middle of church and announced that "Children's worship was for ages 3y.o.- 5th grade for the rest of the year, preparing for the Christmas pageant." There has been so much talk around here about what women can and can't do and when they can and can't speak. (only when invited by a minister and only from their seat was the official decision, but during services is OK, baby steps) and she broke them all. We teased her about it afterward. It was an appropriate time and needed to be said. We assume that no one will have a major problem with it.
I have been so deep in the closet for so long that I didn't realize how many people were in here with me. It is like the wardrobe of C.S. Lewis. There is a whole world in here. Now if we can just get the courage to open that door and walk out into (sometimes) enemy fire. I watched Saving Private Ryan this weekend. At times I feel like those men approaching the beach. Once we open those doors we are likely to die but the few of us who get through are going to make the difference and win the war. It scares me to death at times. It is comfortable in my closet. A little dark and cramped but I call it home. I long to be out in the light of full disclosure but I know that many won't belive me when I tell them what I have seen in the closet. They will ridicule me and hurt me. I prefer to avoid that so I stay in the closed peeking out only when I know it is completely safe. Too many times I have peeked out into what I thought was safety only to be jumped upon and spiritually beaten or worse to have people seek out my family to attack them. I am grateful to Katie and Lance for being out there taking their lumps. I think I have gathered enough steam. I'll be leaving the closet behind soon enough. The scary thing is it is my own spiritual family that attacks me as much as anyone. "Friendly" fire and I often don't see it coming. We should be united fighting the enemy, Satan, but instead he has confused us and so our energy goes toward this "issue" and that "issue". I wish I could just rush out and fight the enemy without looking over my shoulder all the time for the attacks from my side.
I don't know if all my mixed metaphors make any sense or not. Perhaps they are just ramblings. There are no solutions in here, just frustration with the status quo, guilt at not doing more, and fear of retaliation toward me and my family. I'm afraid that if I leave the closed I'll also have to leave the church where we have many good friends and supportive relationships. I love the churches of Christ and the restoration movement. I think the spirit behind it is from God. My heart aches when I think about seeking out another fellowship to be a part of and yet my heart aches every time a brother or sister I love makes a patriarchal comment as well. Just the other day an elder who we love (who is on the bubble) commented that he learns so much about God whenever he prepares a lesson. So much more than he is able to pass on. My heart just ached and I wanted to ask him why he is denying me that same learning, but I sat silent and nodded, it wasn't the right time. It would have been a very divisive comment and yet my heart ached and isn't that also bad? Did he intend to hurt me? Of course not! Yet he still did. Should I tell him? How do I do it? I want answers that aren't always there. I want to do everything perfectly so that I can move the leadership here swiftly toward gender justice and yet I don't know what the first step is.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/11/2002 10:55:44 AM
I hope to live long enough to witness with my own eyes the Tulsa Workshop Friday night keynote speaker is Katie Hays. (I hope that makes sense. It sounds awkward to me, but I'm a little brain-dead tonight and can't figure it out! Maybe Joe will fix it for me?)
Tomorrow I will be at ElderLink in Dallas. I look forward to hearing and meeting D'Esta Love. She, along with Katie, were a great encouragement to me when I first stepped "out of the closet" to carry the message of freedom and equality. I am deepy grateful to both.
Thank you, my brothers, for words of encouragement, esp. Tom, for saying "my sister". There are those who call me "the enemy".
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/08/2002 11:21:34 PM
Julie,
On the 17th we will have a potential Youth and Family minister visiting, but I will start talking up a visit, and see when we can get down that way. Soon, I hope. Meanwhile, you are all in my prayers. And you can guess one line of serious questioning I have for our visitor :-)
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/08/2002 10:05:37 PM
I, too, have always been annoyed about those same programs and could hardly listen to others praise those programs. It was hard not to say something negative back to them. It is the same reaction I have had when others talk about having a class for the boys so they can begin to get comfortable with leading worship. Our congregation has not had a class like that for probably about 18 years...yay!!! progress!!!!
Tom, I mentioned to some friends at church about your offer to come to the first service that we have women participating and they thought that was incredible offer. They were impressed with your support. You are welcome to come that Sunday or any other time you would like. November 17th will be our first Sunday! It is beginning that first Sunday with two couples serving communion. I can't wait! It has been difficult and that old fear still creeps in every now and then but mostly I feel hopeful. God has been good and will continue to be. I see the Spirit moving through us. Please continue to pray for us...not only for this part of our life as a body...but that because we are willing to move through all this that we will reach our community and that others will know the incredible love of God and that lives will be changed. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/08/2002 09:04:07 PM
Vicki,
No, my sister, I don't think your attitude is rough, I think you have a finger on the pulse of 21st century culture. Have some coffee on me.
But, call it selfishness, pride, entitlement or SSSS (hear the hiss of the serpent?), it's as old as the first sin. God made humans male and female in his image or carving, naked before him and each other, and said it was very good. Then that pride thing got in the way, and the two together thought they knew better than God. We're still hiding behind fig leaves of DOING, thinking that it pleases God, while all the time he offers us the chance to BE what he originally intended: male and female in his image. And you are bang on, sister: that falleness is why we can't deal with the "women's issue." It's why we even think there IS a women's issue, instead of celebrating and benefiting from all the unique giftings of God's children.
We can't tire of calling people back to the BEING of God's ideal. Thanks again Katie and Lance for this website. This ongoing discussion and the articles are refreshing. Of course, they also distract me from work, sometimes. :-)
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/08/2002 02:04:38 PM
Vicki, your attitude isn't rough, it's right on.
And please pass the coffee pot over here when you're done, 'cause I haven't had any yet today and that's just plain not good (give me caffeine over M&Ms as a reward any day). ;-)
--Jason
:::posted by Jason on 11/08/2002 02:03:07 PM
Tom - Feel free to use SSSS anytime you like.
I agree with you in theory on the rewards issue, but what I see in our children is that they are trained to perform for a reward. In other words, if there isn't something for them at the end of an accomplishment, they aren't interested in doing the task. (When I began homeschooling my son at the age of 10, I had to re-train him. He expected to ALWAYS receive something for his work, be it SSS, M&M's, ice cream, play time, or a field trip.) LLL and LTC both perpetuate that reward system. What I see in adults is that if they aren't recognized for doing a good deed, they become whiners. Got to have their way or that pat on the back (like their name in the bulletin for buying flowers for the pulpit) or they pout. Is it no wonder that we can't get through the "women's issue"? Why can't we all just grow up a little?
It isn't what we DO, it's who we ARE. (Thank you, Katie!!)
Is my attitude maybe a little rough today? I hope I don't offend anyone. Maybe I need another cup of coffee!
Love you all deeply!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/08/2002 01:20:18 PM
Vicki,
Your SSSS really is an LOL: I like it, and may borrow it with your permission. But I'm a computer nerd, and live in abbreviations and acronyms every day. Anyway, my question is not whether LTC is better than LLL, but whether they address a need, however imperfectly. If so, then would a non-discriminatory, non-SSSS approach be a useful tool? Maybe this could tie in with the summer camp thoughts of a few weeks ago.
One of the arguments against gender justice that I have heard from women is something to the effect of "I'm afraid of this, because I haven't been trained to lead publicly, therefore let's not go there." Assertion: preparation helps deal with fear.
Besides, don't knock rewards entirely; God rewards me abundantly in this life, and has promised an even greater reward. That--and an occasional chocolate bar--sure help keep me on task!
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/08/2002 12:08:11 PM
LLL perpetuates discrimination. Our group has participated in the past with LTC - Leadership Training for Christ, and while they have stepped somewhat away from the blatant discrimination toward our young women found in LLL, subtle and not-so-subtle discrimination still exists. Young women (girls) can't read Scripture with a man in the room? Give me a break! Only young men (boys) can enrolI in song leading and preaching. I find both groups distasteful. Our children are taught to "do good" for a reward. I call it the Scratch 'n' Sniff Sticker Syndrome (SSSS). We find it everywhere. It's as if we are incapable of right for the sake of right. We want an immediate reward. My opinion: boycott both groups. I WHINED so much about it last year that we didn't participate. I HATE whining, but it was effective. Maybe I should use it more often. : )
Well, it's just my opinion.
-Vicki
p.s. I sent Katie's new article to everyone I know, and posted it on the main bulletin board at church. Maybe now we can have that study!
:::posted by Vicki on 11/08/2002 10:43:24 AM
Kirk,
Worse, IMO, than -ess is -ette. What's a "leaderette" in "Lads to Leaders/Leaderettes?" "Leaderette" makes me think of my high school days, when girls in sequined leotards and go-go boots twirled batons in front of the marching band. But mostly, I am bothered by the paternalistic implications. It's as if to say, with a wink, "we'll pretend the girls have important leadership skills to develop so they won't complain, but we know it's really for the boys." Pardon me, my sarcasm is starting to show.
So, back on task, should there be an analogue to LtoL/L (doesn't that look like "LOL"?) that encourages the development of God's gifts in youth regardless of gender?
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 11/08/2002 10:02:17 AM
Carmen, what happened at your church is a good opportunity to cut through the mixed messages. What if someone were to express a word of appreciation to the elder for his comments, and then open the door for some questioning? Your story reminds me of how some Churches of Christ publish lists of "Elders and Wives" and "Deacons and Wives" in the church bulletin. While it's nice that these women are recognized, it's quite ugly how their recognition is tied to who their spouse is, let alone their marital status. (In Romans 16:1 Phoebe stands on her own merit.)
I've heard "deaconate" uttered before too, and cannot find it in the dictionary, though the term "diaconate" is valid. A Disciples congregation I used to attend referred to its servants as "members of the Diaconate," which I found to be a mouthful. This terminology evolved after the previously separate offices of "deacon" and "deaconess" were unified into one. However, most churches I've attended simply apply "deacon" to both genders. (In a similar vein, lately I've noticed many publications use the term "actor" universally, no longer "actress." I like this practice because there's something about "-ess" that just seems diminutive.)
When I was growing up in the Church of Christ, my image of a "deacon" was clearly that of a male in a position of authority. Today, after years in gender-equal churches, my concept of "deacon" is simply that of "servant." Keep on working for justice so every child will see his or her possibility for ministry!
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/08/2002 03:19:00 AM
I feel the need to give an update regarding the new deacon procedure at our church. Last Sunday -- after a brief explanation by an elder that the word deacon means "servant" and that servants are not ambitious for victory and personal honor, and that scripture records "men" being appointed into the position -- the new deacon and his wife and their children were invited to the front of the auditiorium and all together were welcomed into "the deaconate" (I've have never heard that term before) and the wife was recognized, individually, and was actually called "a deacon!" I'm not quite sure what to make of this. As I said before, I think there must be some egalitarians in the leadership. I have no other way to account for the mixed messages. I guess time will tell.
As Katie explains in her new article, Who Do You Say That I Am?, many church leaderships do find comfort in the patriarchal loophole that gives men the authority to allow their wives to exercise their gifts. But it is a corruption of the gospel to exercise control over the aperture of another's access to God. The restoration movement was born in response to that kind of spiritual abuse. At first glance male sponsorship for feminine gifts seems like a relatively easy fix for churches that desperately need to hold onto the growing number of members edging toward egalitarianism. It dresses up the old patriarchalism in a "kinder and friendlier" hat ... a hat -- as history has proven over and over again -- that can be changed very, very quickly and discreetly. Once everyone gets used to the newness of the hat they will begin to notice the flaws ... "What is the procedure for the single or widowed woman, or the married woman with an unbelieving husband to exercise her gifts? Must she find a male sponsor? A father? a brother? would an uncle-in-law do? Is she just out of luck?" "What do we do when the songleader's husband dies? divorces? falls away from the Lord? Tell her to marry a Christian man so that she can continue to lead singing? Tell her to find another male sponsor? would her baptised son do?" The "wife" loophole has caused enough heartache and pain -- It hasn't been too many years since Christian colleges let women professors go because a spouse died or left her for another woman -- and strong leaderships will not consent to it.
:::posted by Carmen on 11/08/2002 01:37:59 AM
Patty,
I attend Southeastern, I have only been here for about 2 years. We average about 500 on Sunday a.m. We are going through some major growing pains, which makes me think that this "time of change" could be the perfect time for this study on women's roles or it could make it a bad time. Does that make sense????
Your friend Kendra goes to Westlake. I went to grade school at Westlake (a LONG time ago) and still have many friends there. She is in good company!
Katie, Thank you for giving words to my heart!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 11/07/2002 09:19:17 AM
Thanks Katie! I'd prefer the 90 second discussion anytime!
Carmen
San Diego
:::posted by Carmen on 11/07/2002 01:44:00 AM
THANK YOU, KATIE!!
Who Do You Say That I Am? says it all for me!!
Thank you! Thank You! Thank you!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/06/2002 05:46:53 PM
Shelly, Where do you go to church? I have a good friend there in Indy, Kendra Johnson. I am wondering if you go to church with her. (of cource I can't remember the name of her church, but I have been there. We sang a lot of Zoe songs and the inside of the building is white with red carpeting. I think.) Just wondering if you know her.
On the baptism issue. I have been asked on 3 different occasions by young women to baptize them. Every time I told them yes and then was told later that although it wasn't specifically forbidden I wouldn't be allowed to do it. The second time It was two of them and they were given the option of me doing it with only women present or a male with both sexes present. After all I would have to speak while I was baptizing them and a male watching might learn something...
Then when I decided at the age of 25 to be baptized for a second time (long story I won't go into here) I asked a good (female) friend to do the honors. Again it was denied. This time my loyalty to the church and the ministry/internship I was a part of was questioned since she wasn't part of the leadership and men who were, were available to do the "honors". I was so offended that I choose a fellow student/minister rather than one of them. I wasn't going to let the best day of my life be ruined by bad feelings toward the person who dunked me.
It still hurts me when I think back on these times. Some would say I'm too sensitive. I think I'm just sensitive enough. When injustice doesn't hurt me, then it is time to re-evaluate my sensitivities.
Patty
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 11/06/2002 05:33:43 PM
New article by Katie just posted: Who Do You Say That I Am?
:::posted by Lance on 11/06/2002 05:24:59 PM
My daughter was baptized about 4 years ago, I wanted to do it, but never even consider it a possibility (how sad). My Father was the lucky one, he also baptized my youngest son. I am hoping now that someday I will baptize my husband!
In the CofC where I grew up it was rare to see anyone but the minister baptize or take a confession. I know of LOTS of kids who have been baptized by their father’s – what a wonderful bond to baptize your child! A year or so ago, a long-time friends baptized their daughter, together, at church on a Sunday Morning. I recognize the baby steps we are taking, and I appreciate them, but sometimes (like now) I want to get my hammer out! Not the little velvet one – the big industrial Hammer Drill!
Kirk - Thank you for your story and the link. I remember conversations from my youth about whether or not my mother should be allowed to continue teaching 5-6th grade because of the boys who had been baptized, but she was never one to back down. (I have been slipping her articles, tapes, etc.) The link is very interesting, I have found so many women preachers during that period, funny how I never heard about them in the restoration classes I took. They were all Barton Stone, Campbell, etc., I envy them!
Impatient in INDY!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 11/06/2002 09:15:32 AM
Julie/ Vickie, you may know this already, but there is evidence of baptism performed by women in earlier Restoration Movement history. One example is that of Clara Celestia Hale-Babcock (1850-1925). Following her conversion to the "Campbellite" fellowship, she was ordained to ministry in 1888 and served a congregation in Erie, Illinois. Her biography states that she converted about 1,400 people, of whom she personally baptized 1,000. Not a bad career tally! If you'd like to read more about Clara, see Hans Rollmann's Restoration Movement web site at:
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/nhaynes/hdcib/BABCOCK.HTM
Until you raised the question, it hadn't occurred to me that the validity of baptism might be questioned based on the gender of the person administering it. Isn't it true that Churches of Christ have female overseas missionaries that teach and convert? Does anyone know whether they perform baptism in that context?
Carmen, as Indie calculated, I am now 38 or as I like to say old enough to know better, but never too old to make a difference. I used the "Congregation Finder" on the Disciples' web site (www.disciples.org) and found eight congregations in or near San Diego. Torrey Pines Christian Church in La Jolla has three ministers, two of whom are a married "clergy couple." On their list of 32 elders, I counted possibly 14-16 women's names. Reading their web site (www.tpcclj.org), this appears to be a very active and involved church. If you happen to check out a Disciples congregation, please share your impressions of what you notice about women's involvement!
I should also clarify the concept of "eldership" in the Disciples of Christ. In every Disciples church I've ever known, the role of elder is that of a spiritual leader, e.g., presiding at the Lord's Table, helping assimilate new members, leading prayer groups, etc. They are typically much less involved than Church of Christ elders in administrative matters such as staff management, capital development, etc. So, I wonder if the aspect of administrative decision-making "authority" might explain why the CoC eldership is viewed as a "male" office. Ironically I've seen a few CoC web pages where the congregation does not have elders per se but instead "spiritual advisors" of both genders.
Kirk
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/06/2002 02:43:57 AM
Vicki, Have Lance give you my email address. I know of a church who is looking right now to hire another minister. Their pulpit minister will continue but they are looking to add to their staff. I believe they are looking for someone to be more available and run programs and that sort of thing. I can find out more if you want. Women already have full participation there and they are a wonderful group of people. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/05/2002 10:15:35 PM
To whoever asked,
Mr. Imoto's post said he was 9 when he was baptized in 1973. That would make him 38.
:::posted by Indie on 11/05/2002 09:46:46 PM
Vicki and Carmen, you have made my day. I love hearing from the two of you. I am the mother of 4 children ranging in age from 20 to 9. Only one of them has chosen baptism so far and he was 17. It was this past summer and he asked my husband to baptize him and wanted a very small group at his baptism. I was able to speak and share scripture to the group and to him. What an amazing thing to see your child standing in the waters of baptism. It is all ask for my children...a deep and powerful faith in the risen Lord...the rest is just icing on the cake. My oldest has not come to that point in his life yet but wrote me a note a few mother's day ago that said"...I know who Jesus is and I know what he did for me. I have a difficult time with church because I see hypocrisy and I don't know what to do with that.." I am confident that the relationship is growing and evolving and that he has an incredible foundation. Vicki, I understand why you chose not to baptize your daughter...you were protecting her from hurt. That is what mothers do. Even when we want something badly...we still do what is best for our children.
Carmen, I loved your words about God...He doesn't speak to us in clear English with Peter Jennings voice. That is why he gave us minds and choices. When we come to things on our own it is so much more powerful. Just as when our children come to their own faith. We can't push and we can't spoon feed. The same with gender equality...we can't push and we can't spoon feed. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/05/2002 03:04:28 PM
Vicki, I know how you feel. Our son was baptised a little over a year ago. My husband asked me to baptise him but I knew I couldn't do that at church and it still seemed wrong for me to do it alone. We decided to do it together in a swimming pool ... each of us holding onto one of his hands. I wish it could have happened at church. It was beautiful!
:::posted by Carmen on 11/05/2002 11:46:54 AM
Thank you for all of the responses to my question. Until now, I had only been going on intuition that men who root for the women would be pushed off center and out of the loop. Fear of rejecting the subjugation of women as emperical biblical fact is to risk the rejection of oneself, and in Lance's case, his calling ... his financial support! "What greater love ...?" (whew!)
Jason, I admire your sincerity and the responsiblity you invest in your influence. Would'nt it be great if Jesus had just handled egalitarism to us with very clear and precise words rather than through Example? But God does not speak loudly from heaven in English in Peter Jenning's voice for all to hear. If God did, we would have no need for the world or religion. I hear the egalitarian voice of God in the creation as well in the little stories and the big-picture of the Bible. But understanding is earned through observation over a long period of time. This is why, I believe, it has to be taught from childhood to be fully effective in community. Regardless of whether change comes slowly or quickly, if it does not come organically the going will be rough. But I will pray for a soft and effective landing for you.
Kirk! So good to hear your story! Do you mind if I ask how old you are now?
Thank you for joining us, Kirk!
Carmen
:::posted by Carmen on 11/05/2002 11:39:00 AM
Welcome, Kirk. Thank you for not being a silent reader anymore. Your voice is powerful in this place.
Julie made a reference to your Mrs. Wilson, stating, "Wouldn't it have been wonderful if she could have baptized you? If she had been a man, she would have performed the baptism." It reminded me of my own daughter's baptism. She was only 6, "too young" by CoC "standards", but she knew exactly what she was doing, and why. God called her heart while she was still pure. I never saw such purity go into and come out of those waters. It was so beautiful. Rambling. Sorry. My point in going down this memory lane was that my husband, the minister, offered to me the privelege of doing this for her. My heart longed to say yes. But I knew that people would say, not only to us, but also to her, that it didn't count because I was a woman. She would already be in question because of her age. I did not want that kind of confusion for her. How any times I've looked back on that day and wished I'd chosen otherwise.
Lance, you expressed so well the very things my husband and I have talked about re: career suicide. To that I would add that the older a minister is, the fewer his choices. Doubles the "terror". I have asked him to consider looking for another church with whom to serve, but those options are so few when looking for a church who is at least moving toward egalitarianism.
Still looking forward to a better day -
Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 11/05/2002 11:30:41 AM
Kirk, Thank you for sharing your story. I was especially moved by Mrs Wilson. She had brought you to the feet of Jesus and yet she was not an acceptable teacher once you were baptized. I do thank God often though for women like Mrs. Wilson who were willing to keep teaching in the face of discrimination. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if she could have baptized you? If she had been a man, she would have performed the baptism.
I understand perfectly how you arrived where you are and am so thankful for your presence here. We need the kind of encouragement you have to offer. May God continue to bless you on your journey. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/05/2002 09:21:58 AM
Mr. Imoto, welcome! And thank you for sharing with us your journey.
:::posted by jch on 11/05/2002 08:37:46 AM
As a long-time reader of this forum, I would like to introduce myself and express my support for what you are intending to accomplish. In doing so, I would like to share how gender issues have impacted my faith pilgrimage, and also give witness to the role of women in my spiritual development.
I have lived in the Chicago area all my life and grew up in the 1970's. Three of the most influential people in my early faith formation were my mother, grandmother, and a Sunday School teacher named Mrs. Wilson at the West Side Church of Christ in Elgin, Illinois. My grandmother lived in Kentucky but tried to instill a joyful discovery of faith by sending me handwritten, colorful letters with Bible trivia, such as lists of metaphors for Christ. Since my grandmother was out of state, in some ways, Mrs. Wilson was like a "great aunt" to me. She taught with enthusiasm, and I looked forward to church because of her loving spirit.
One of my first encounters with gender issues in the Church of Christ occurred immediately following my baptism in 1973. Mrs. Wilson had wept with joy when I made my decision for Christ. Then, right afterward, some male leaders of the church instructed my parents that on the following Sunday I was no longer to attend Mrs. Wilson's class, since a woman, in teaching a nine-year-old boy, would be "excercising authority." Not only did I personally resent being separated from my spiritual mentor, but when the explanation was provided, I found it uttered in an automatic, heartless manner.
By the time of my high school years, my family had transferred to the Cardinal Drive Church of Christ in Rolling Meadows, a larger, rather more upscale congregation. At that church I noticed that certain activities that were prohibited at West Side were quite well-accepted. One of these was women leading prayer in devotionals that were held in members' homes. I questioned why this was acceptable in a house but not at church. The answer, which I felt to be shallow, was that being in "the auditorium" indicated that the church was holding "an assembly" and that women were not permitted to have authority in that setting. I was also told that the types of questions I was raised were not the kinds of things with which a teenager ought to be concerned.
The next leg of my journey initially had nothing at all to do with gender issues, but immediately went right into that territory. Still in high school, I embarked on a historical study of the Church of Christ and became fascinated with comparative religion. Having read about the Disciples of Christ, and curious to learn more, I decided to visit the Christian Church of Villa Park one Sunday. My main goal was to experience "Restorationist" worship with instrumental music. However, what I encountered was more than I expected.
On first impression, the Disciples service reminded me of the Church of Christ, with the exception of the organ accompaniment and the presence of candles on the Lord's table. The turning point in my attitude toward women's role in the church was that Sunday morning in 1982, when Pastor Kenneth R. Newton announced the communion hymn. At the second stanza, I was absolutely taken aback when proceeding down the center aisle toward the table were the elders and deacons, both men and women. A man uncovered the bread, and a woman uncovered the cup. Then each in turn gave thanks for the body and blood. The elements were then served by men and women. I partake, remembering my Lord, and then immediately sought to learn more about the theological aspects of women's role in the church.
That week I actually wrote Pastor Newton a letter telling him how much I enjoyed the service, but also asking some hard questions. He responded not only with a letter, but enclosed a book on the subject by Virginia Ramey Mollenkott. He explained that the Disciples had come to the understanding that there should be no barrier placed on women's gifts and that they were welcomed and appreciated as deacons, elders, and even ministers. (It was awhile before I heard my first woman preacher, in a United Methodist Church, and her sermon was ironically titled, "Equal Valentines.")
Just before my 19th birthday, I transferred my membership from the Church of Christ to the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Arlington Heights. After a couple years, the long-time minister of that church resigned, and I was nominated to serve as the youngest member of the Search Committee. We had the pleasure of calling my first female pastor, Pamela June Webb, as interim minister for over a year as our committee conducted its search. Pam was from Texas and was about as "down-homey" as you could imagine. Her sermons were very biblical, and she asked lots and lots of questions for people to ponder. Preaching, counseling, and the management of church conflict during transition were all Pam's gifts. On several occasions, I brought my CoC parents to worship to hear her preach.
Today, as a member of Immanuel United Church of Christ in Streamwood, I find myself on a Pastoral Search Study Committee again. Our interim pastor is Elaine Eachus. Like Pam, she too has a tremendous gift of preaching and opening up people's minds. Quite often she forsakes the pulpit and preaches from a music stand in the center aisle so she can be closer to the congregation. One Sunday she surprised us by donning a scarf and witnessing as one of the women outside the empty tomb (the entire sermon done from memory). She prodded our social conscience, for example, when she coordinated a dialogical sermon asking what our Christian beliefs have to say about capital punishment. All of this comes from Elaine's personal response to the Holy Spirit. I have had more than a few members approach me and ask why we can't hire her as our permanent minister. (This is actually forbidden under the terms of her contract as an interim.)
So there we have it--my own faith journey in pursuit of a community which respects gender justice. I truly value my upbringing in the Church of Christ and love my sisters and brothers in your fellowship. I stand in solidarity with the folks on this web site, and pray for a day where all of your congregations will be open to the gifts of women like Pam and Elaine. I hope to be part of your conversations here from time to time.
Shalom,
R. Kirk Imoto
Streamwood, Illinois
:::posted by R. Kirk on 11/05/2002 12:39:20 AM
I suspect that there are more forms of terror about this than there are flavors of ice cream in Baskin-Robbins. For me, the greatest initial ones centered on a fear of violating God's will. I didn't want to endanger my soul, support women or other advocates in endangering theirs, risk precipitating a church split, or taking the church adrift from God's will. Our Church of Christ background does not exactly encourage challenging the "plain text" of the Bible, especially when reinforced by tradition. And even if I was right in changing to an egalitarian viewpoint, there was still a risk of causing a church split or causing "weaker" brothers and sisters to fall away. If I'd really wanted responsibilities for others souls, I wouldn't have turned my Bible major into an add-on major.
As Lance said, I was also afraid of being ostracized. My dad is an elder in a conservative, traditional, simple church. I live and come from the midwest, where feminists are considered bizarre, anti-Christian people who put personal liberties before common goods like their marriage.
As I've come to have more confidence in my decision before God and I've discovered that marriage to a feminist can still be a wonderful thing, some fears are diminishing, but new ones always pop up. Now, I get to worry about how best to work with my church to coax them along. Do we challenge, or build respect and leverage that through teaching and other opportunities to change ideas more slowly? If Patty goes back to get her MDiv, will there be a job waiting for her when we get done? Will we be stuck living the itinerant preacher lifestyles, moving every 2-4 years?
And yet, I suspect that there are no danger-free choices, just the illusion of some. God will be with us through terror, and may even be guiding us there. In fact, I suspect that there can be no growth without fear, no chance to help others as we've been helped without discomfort.
Taking a deep breathe and jumping,
--Jason
:::posted by Jason on 11/04/2002 10:18:17 PM
The “terror” of advocating for the marginal is, in the first place, the terror of being marginalized. In my case, and in the case of a few other male ministers I know, it is the fear that speaking out on gender is career suicide. I use the secular term “career” self-critically, but in my best moments it is also the fear of being stymied in living out my call to serve this church.
In marriage the terror is that, once the discussion begins, there is no guarantee what it will mean in the end. The carefully negotiated equilibrium between a wife and husband may be jeopardized by the claims of gender justice. Even where there is a lot of talk about “mutual submission” the underlying power dynamic may be intensely patriarchal. Under the consequences of sin, the wife’s desire is for the husband, and he, in refusing full reciprocation, is empowered to rule her. But what happens when this arrangement is exposed as fallen? What happens when the Spirit begins to enact a new creation in one or both? I don’t mind admitting that I have (more than once) experienced this grace as terror.
:::posted by Lance on 11/04/2002 04:40:00 PM
Mike said, "I've been impressed with people who, because of their respect for scripture, are struggling with this issue, but who nevertheless refuse to hide from the discussion in terror." I am familiar with that feeling of terror that accompanies expressing my thoughts and studies about gender-justice. It is tragic when responsible church membership and intellectual honesty are replaced with cultural survival techniques. I think this terror comes from a fear that one will be percieved as irreverant, unChristian, a bad example and a poor steward of the communty's treasure trove of identity and purpose, its past, present and future. When a woman expresses her thoughts about the marginalisation of women and a male-dominated order, she is accused of breaking the faith, disrupting the balance, and making divisions among things that are percieved as joined. She is percieved as a bad wife, if not an adultress and must struggle mightily to maintain any kind of place in the community. This is no mystery, though. All of the women here have seen this. But I'd like to hear from the men. What is the terror like for them?
:::posted by Carmen on 11/04/2002 11:47:14 AM
Just to let you all know that Sunday was good after our congregational vote. I think we are all relieved to be done with that part of it. Please keep us in your prayers as we move on this conviction.
Mike, good to hear your voice again. It is good to know that there are people everywhere who are thinking and studying and seeking. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/03/2002 09:12:33 PM
Hello, forum friends. I'm afraid I haven't peeked in for a few weeks. Busy fall! And a few have asked me questions that I haven't responded to. Please feel free (as a member of the forum) to get my e-mail address from Lance.
Two things amaze me right now as we pray for "gender justice." First, I continue to be amazed at the suffering love of so many of you sisters, who have waited and waited. Change is coming. The die is cast. The Rubicon has been crossed. But it must surely seem like glacier-speed change. Yet you keep modeling the love of Christ, keep praying for friends and enemies alike.
Second, I've been impressed over the past month with the number of people who, because of their respect for scripture, are struggling with this issue, but who nevertheless refuse to hide from the discussion in terror. I've talked with many people who say, in essence, "This runs counter to everything I've been taught and I'm uncomfortable, but I promise to study and pray about it." I give thanks for their courage and devotion to Christ.
Peace! Mike
:::posted by Mike on 11/03/2002 04:32:29 PM
Julie,
Congrats! Good luck to you and your congregation as you embark down this road.
--Jason Lacoss-Arnold
:::posted by Jason on 11/02/2002 07:06:53 PM
I feel compelled to give you progress reports since we are in the middle of transitioning into full participation of women. Today was our congregational meeting and we successfully voted to start having women participating in our public assembly starting November 17th. It wasn't without some discussion and some saying that they don't feel prepared to go in that direction yet but overall it was positive with many acknowledging that in order to do God's work we needed to move beyond this issue. We have been talking about this for 15 years and I am weary from the battle but felt encouraged today to hear from so many that they believe that God intended women to be equal. I will continue to post as we continue our journey. only by grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 11/02/2002 06:40:47 PM
Lisa,
Thanks, this is really encouraging to me! We also worked in PBI from Fee and Stuart (and F.F. Bruces NT Histroy for background). I'll have to check out the ACU book.
What is your guys' approach to the class? We've beek thinking of going with a mostly hands on format where we have a minimal amount of theory and then spend most of the classtime attempting to apply it to a specific letter (say Eph. or Hebrews). One week we might deal with author, the next with audience, etc. As a follow-up class, I might go more into Webb style hermeneutics, but the elder I'm working with is a bit concerned that they may over most peoples heads.
If you want to send me any tips and not clog the board, you can find my email address on our home page
Keep up the great work!
--Jason
:::posted by Jason on 11/01/2002 11:57:02 AM
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