The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
I've been looking through our archived conversations for who's going to the Zoe conference in Nashville this weekend. Did we have that conversation here? or am I getting confused with worshipforum.com and wineskins.com? So remind me, who's going? I can't wait to go. Only 4 more days! Yahoo!
Love,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/30/2002 09:58:08 AM
'sniff'
I love you too, Mom!
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/29/2002 03:13:14 PM
Dear Ann's (and Julie's) Mother,
I am crying over my keyboard after reading your camp experience. What an awesome thing to share as mother and grown daughter!
I'm so glad you're here!
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/29/2002 12:40:53 AM
Sue, you are my spiritual mother and I will claim you anytime and forever. You make me so proud! Wow! We have come a long way since we first started talking about 15 years ago. I can only say, "You go, girl!" And I know from experience that Sue is a great camp nurse. grace as always, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/28/2002 10:22:35 PM
Hi everyone,
I've been listening in on your conversations for quite a while now. I feel like I often do at family reunions when my grown children are talking and I wonder where these interesting, intelligent people come from. Anyway I thought it was time I introduced myself and let you know I'm here.
My name is Sue. I'm 61 years old. I live in Maryland. My daughter Ann is part of this forum, as is my spiritual daughter Julie. I thought you should hear the thoughts of one of older generation who finally "gets it", and is anxious to see more freedom for all Christians in our churches. I've been thinking about posting this for awhile, since Lisa shared about how we go through stages from precontemplation to action on the role of women in our fellowship. For 50 years I was in the precontemplation stage. I grew up in a diferent world. All the women I knew were stay at home moms. The only working women I ever knew were school teachers. It was pretty much an Ozzie & Harriet world. The Church of Christ is the only church I've ever known. I learned about faith and love here.I was content and happy and serving my Lord. It never occured to me that I should questions the traditions that I had always known and trusted. I didn't know I was inside a box of rules that prevented me from seeing more and knowing more of God's grace. When Ann started questioning the rules and asking questions that I had never thought to ask it scared me. I was afraid she might get hurt. Then Julie and I started studying together. I wondered what she was trying to say. I just didn't get it. We kept studing and praying together. The elders and their wives (my husband was an elder for 25 years- he recently resigned) began to study the question of what scriptures really say and holding our traditional practices up to the mirror of God's word. I found it scarey. My traditions didn't match what I saw in God's word. It became obvious to the whole group that we were making up rules and putting up barriers that were not put there by God. The sad part was that the group found changing the traditions too hard to do. It was uncomfortable. They were afraid of offending someone. That was about 8 years ago. It has been a long, painful road since then. But I see signs of good changes in the not too distant future for our congregation now. We have been contemplating and preparing. I pray we are about to take some action. My advice to you. Never give up. Do not quit telling your stories. Do not quit studying. Be loving, but keep talking. Keep praying. Go ahead and be passoinate about what is important - and being free in Christ is important!
One camp story to share. Last fall our congregation went to the mountains for our annual retreat. Saturday evening we were talking about who would do what in our Sunday morning service. I said I would be happy to do the oration for the Lord's Supper, expecting the usual smile while they picked some man, but they said ok. So on a beautiful autumn Sunday in the chapel in the the woods I presided over the Lord's Table. I had thought a lot about what I would say, but it didn't occur to me until I was standing there with the bread in my hands that I had to also lead the prayer. I prayed with much thanksgiving. My daughter was on one side, a good woman friend on the other to serve the communion. I was 60 years old. I had been a Christian all my life. It felt right. God is good.
I plan to retire in June. I could be camp nurse. I really would like a place with flush toilets.
Grace & Peace to you all.
Sue
:::posted by Sue on 9/28/2002 08:56:18 PM
I have camped at Buffalo Gap with only sleeping bags, a pack of Poptarts and some matches. Poptarts are great stuck on a stick over the fire. We didn't think about the snakes...we were college students. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/27/2002 09:34:13 PM
Mike,
don't forget the dried up lakes, forests of mesquit with lot of thorns, and cedar for the sinuses. Talking about it just made me yearn to come out there. I'll be at Abilene State Park next weekend!!! ---Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/27/2002 06:05:01 PM
Patty - It still counts! :-)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/27/2002 05:05:54 PM
Oops, I meant next weekend.
Vicki- LOL
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/27/2002 03:59:47 PM
Patty - I think it counts. A measure I use is that it counts when someone complains!
Have a great and blessing-filled weekend!!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/27/2002 03:43:57 PM
I just had to share this. A group from my congregation is going camping this weekend and on Sunday morning I'm leading singing! I'm pretty excited. It has been a while since I got to lead singing. I know that they may be thinking that it doesn't count so much because we won't be "at church" but my husband is doing a sermon, we are having communion so I think it counts.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/27/2002 03:41:03 PM
And don't forget tumbleweeds and dust... But I'm a Harding grad, so I guess I should counter with Searcy. Mosquitos, humidity, and more mosquitos.
:::posted by TWD on 9/27/2002 03:27:56 PM
Why is no one mentioning Abilene? Think of it . . . heat, cactus, rattlesnakes, flat plains . . . . Now there's a camp to remember!
:::posted by Mike on 9/27/2002 03:06:21 PM
I have just had a terrible day at work and have caught up on your posts....emotions are running high. Wow! To be able to worship together in the middle of God's wonderful world and everyone could participate...wouldn't that be incredible?!! We should seriously do this. I am excited already! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/26/2002 04:45:50 PM
OK, Next summer I have half of May and all of June off from work. Could we do it then? I could possibly get a week off later in the summer but that would be harder. There are some great places in Lake of the Ozarks for camping. But CO is also a great idea. How rustic do we want to go? (How much do we want to spend?) Would we make the first year just camping with families and work from there ? (Wouldn't that be fun! We could have Worship together on Sunday morning and everyone could participate!!!) I'm getting more excited as I type this. It would be a chance for so many of us to experience for one Sunday what we long to experience every week and never have. It would be a chance to show our children (not that I have any) what true equality looks like. Or at least as well as we are able to do it. A little slice of heaven on earth. Also doing it family camping style would mean fewer logistics to work out. No nurse or life guard to hire. No cooks, no camp insurance etc. Esp for the first year to get it off the ground.
I hope you guys are as serious as I am about this.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/26/2002 03:05:00 PM
MO sounds good to me! It is the center of the US (not too far from INDY) and a beautiful place!
S.
:::posted by Shelly on 9/26/2002 01:33:09 PM
There must be a lovely place in Colorado! (Always looking for any excuse to go to CO!)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/26/2002 01:15:00 PM
Carmen,
There's a really large camp (Pendleton) just north of Oceanside, but I don't know if the Marines would share. Still, they have made a lot more progress in gender equity than many churches have, so it might be appropriate. Still, I'm sure Patty would point out that Missouri is the geographic center of the 48 states.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/26/2002 12:53:35 PM
Ann,
Lance will give you my email. C'mon Tom ... I was thinking that Oceanside would be just dandy for a camp. Care to be the activities director?
:::posted by Carmen on 9/26/2002 12:43:55 PM
Somewhere in Maryland sounds good to me ;-)
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/26/2002 12:18:47 PM
That camp idea is terrific. I'd fly in with my kids to work there too. Let's think of it as a real possibility. I bet we could get some sponsors for finacial assistance. All we need is a location. It sounds like Carmen, Patty and I can be on staff. Any other volunteers? Does anyone have a location of possibility?
I'm excited about the idea!
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/26/2002 09:01:11 AM
Beverly, when you get a chance send me directions on how to get to Sunset Ridge. It looks like we may be camping in your area in December and that may be on a Sunday.
:::posted by Wiley on 9/25/2002 10:25:52 PM
Beverly, loved you telling about your experience at Sunset Ridge. There is life out there! Thank you for reminding us.
Patty, thanks for sharing your camp experience. I was way too close to the situation that Ann described and have taken many years to heal from those wounds. I am so glad that at the camp you attend you are able to be a part and make a difference. It is comforting to know that others have been on the same battlefield with us all along. If only we had known when in the midst of it. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/25/2002 09:16:17 PM
Here's the web link for the MISH
http://www.medinstitute.org/
:::posted by Beverly on 9/25/2002 07:03:28 PM
Sunday, at Sunset Ridge, we heard a woman give the call to worship (and opening prayer). little girls recite the 23rd Psalm, and men and women reading the scripture. No one seemed to notice, except me!
The few people I've told from our last church act as though I'm being smart ("See, I told you so" stuff) when really, I'm just happy that we were able to find a COC that appears to be much more egalitarian than I thought possible.
We haven't cut off ties with the New Braunfels church: next week Larry and I are taking the youth minister and his wife to a Changemakers abstinence education conference. For more information on the organization that sponsors Changemakers, see Medical Institute of Sexual Health www.medinstitute.org
:::posted by Beverly on 9/25/2002 07:00:33 PM
Mike- I see that you will be in my neck of the woods next month. (St Louis) I would love to get together if you have the time, but I understand if you will be just too busy.
On the Christian camp front. I would certainly support a camp like that. At the camp where I grew up and worked for many years as an adult the system was inconsistent at best. We had women on the board but they were never elected president, just secretary. (a position my father held for many years and then my mother did.) The girls were encouraged to be very active and participate in a lot of things but lines were drawn various places. Once 2 of my campers asked me to baptize them. I had known them for years and immediately said yes. This was only going to be allowed if no males were present. They had too many male friends to want that. In fact my studying with them wasn't even acceptable. They had to pick a man to do it and study with him as well. I was allowed to go into the water with them. I wish now that I hadn't done that but at the time it seemed like the best choice. Both girls were confused and hurt by the incident. They have now fallen away.
I had to study with girl campers when the director asked for volunteers to pray and didn't pick them. In fact only these girls volunteered and the director acted like he couldn't see them at all. At their home church they could pray in devo situations like that. I can't remember what I told them but I basically explained to them what the people who were keeping them from participating believed. I think I told them that it wasn't something that everyone agreed about.
Over the 80's and 90's while I attended and worked at camp I watched it become more conservative and closed minded. Part of the can be accounted for with my maturing and becoming more aware but a large part of it was giving most of the authority at that camp to a very domineering closed minded man, because it was a lot of work and he was the only one willing to do it. His own household was in shambles, none of his own children were regularly faithful and yet we allowed him to set policy for a couple hundred kids every summer. It reminds me of the verses about how to pick an elder...
Oh I also got in trouble for encouraging my older girl campers to not shave their legs for the week of camp. I wanted them to consider why they did these beauty rituals. It was part of our putting the world aside for a week theme. (I also asked them to give up secular music and reading for the week of camp) I was told that I should be teaching them to join the crowd not go against it. Most of these kids were the only member of their church that attended their school. I saw it as my obligation to teach them how to stand alone in the crowd of opposing opinions and ideas.
So, in short, yes I would not only support this camp, but if possible I would work at it.
Patty
St. Louis, MO
:::posted by Patty on 9/25/2002 06:41:28 PM
I prefer to send my son to YMCA camps. The church camps here seem to be run by the most conservative members. The one time we sent our son -- two years ago -- he came home with the most amazing collection of wierd doctrine that I have heard anywhere -- and having owned and operated a Christian book store for 17 years, I thought I had heard just about everything! We also teach him the Bible at home rather than put him through the anxiety of unteaching him things he learns in Bible School. But this gives me an idea ... Wouldn't it be great if a group of parents organised a gender equitable backyard Bible school or overnight Bible camp and even advertised it as such to the Christian community at large. What a minstry that would be!
:::posted by Carmen on 9/25/2002 12:29:20 PM
On a smaller scale than universities, I believe that has happened with the summer youth camp our church supports. The previous director was allowing the girl campers too much inclusion. Girls were praying in the evening devotionals. Women teachers were speaking in chapel in the morning. (For heaven's sake!) The board, rather than address their discomfort with the loosening of traditions, allowed a sort of coup to happen to oust the free-thinking director. The new director is not only conservative, but also is cold and unkind. I know many, including me, who won't send their kids now. But this director is less controversial. Unkind is better than non-traditional. I believe the board is afraid of losing finacial support if girl campers and counselors gain too much freedom. I send my kids to sports camp instead. Sadly, Carmen, you've hit another nail squarely on the head. Here's a clear example of money being the root of evil.
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/25/2002 09:31:19 AM
Ok, so now anyone who is reading can tell that gender-justice is not an organised conspiracy. Most of us have been of this view for a long, long time. I don't think travel has much to do with it. Most of the churches around San Diego are full of well-traveled military families and, generally, they seem quite conservative. In fact, there are very few places in the world where one can see women worshiping with men in egalitarian unity. If the church of Christ will just have a breakthrough I think our own little denomination is our best hope. There is growth beneath the surface. I would like to discuss one reason that I believe limits progress -- quite obvious, but still one that we have not discussed -- money and institutional dependency. I have some experience working with development and alumni relations with a major university. Someone mentioned earlier that if a univeristy like ACU would take a stand, then others will follow. I think this is true. But the financial risk is too great for institutions that depend on donations from alumni and the board of trustees. You can only shake these people up so much before they get disgusted and break away. Just this year a catholic university in town put up a poster of a classic nude sculpture to advertise an art exhibit. A board member said "take it down" and the $1,000 poster came down the same day. Every church has to deal with the money dependency issue on it's own level. I know that one church I attend is financially dependent on many members who just don't care that scripture supports (or demands) gender justice, they will leave and their dollars with them if anyone in authority seriously questions the current tradtions. I know there is a growing movement toward house churches. Perhaps this will be the only way immediate change can come.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/25/2002 02:22:49 AM
Well, I'm not one of the nomads, but my home congregation near D.C. is full of them. We have lots of turnover with military and government workers - and that's on top of the usual transfers of church-hoppers. Julie and I have been in the opposite position of having to "enlighten" new members over and over again. For example, our congregation had a Sunday morning Bible study about women's role in the Church six or seven years ago. The class was taught by the elders. The conclusion was that women in the early church had more freedom than women in our church. But sadly, our leadership was afraid to take any action based on that conclusion. For two years after that class, nothing changed. By the time we finally had the first woman teaching a mixed adult class, about a third of the congregation was new and had not participated in the study. So there was fallout again.
But a couple of weeks ago, a newer member asked me to help her study what the Bible says about women. We've spent hours together in study and discussion. I may soon be leading a small group discussion on the freedom of the Spirit. It's is exciting to have people ask me to talk about it for a change instead of people asking my to shut up about it.
I wanted to tell all y'all Texans that even though we're in Maryland, we do have the Texas flag hanging in the front of our congregation - really! Julie has coordinated "Ribbon Banners" for our church family. These are two banners that are made entirely of long ribbons collected from each family. Each family or individual selects a ribbon that represents themselves. Together, they make a beautiful tapestry. Anyway, one of our families decorated their red ribbon with the Lone Star flag. So this Sunday, I saw it again and smiled, thinking of all of you - excuse me, y'all. We'd so love to have you visit us out east.
Thanks again for all the smiles and support.
Love,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/24/2002 09:38:25 AM
Greetings and Salutations...
I am back from the Green Mountains of Vermont refreshed. I have spent the last half hour catching up on the posts over the last week. While I missed my new found friends here - I was really enjoying the quiet and solitude of God's Creation.
Following the pattern of earlier posts, I live in Cleveland, OH. I am 41, divorced and remarried. No children. I teach Performance Management for a large midwestern regional bank. I was a fulltime minister for 11 years. I serve in an interim capacity now when a congregation is between ministers.
Jeff
:::posted by Jeff on 9/24/2002 09:36:23 AM
I'm another young'in: a 26 year-old single male, never-married minister/student (and a philosopher and a gentleman, too!) :) My mother tells me I've been raisin' a ruckus since the day I was born; I started out sqawling at the world and haven't stopped yet. I could rightly pass for a civilized Bostonian, especially since nobody thinks I sound like what they think a Texan is supposed to sound like. But I am routinely betrayed by certain words like "y'all" and "ruckus" and "over-yonder" that just won't wander harmlessly out of my vocabulary and invariably come out of my mouth with a slight drawl. That, and as my church up here now knows, I can country line-dance "purty darn good". (which, incidently, is something I picked up at Lipscomb University of all places, after I left Texas.)
I suppose I first became interested in this issue in high school, though it wasn't until college that I really started to put several things together. I grew up at a more "progressive" CofC where in our youth group, girls always at least prayed, read scripture, or led songs. I could see that this practice didn't quite match up with what we did "in the auditorium". So I started asking questions (and the rest is history, as they say). And my best Christian friends were from school, and all were non-CofC. We had a truly ecumenical lunch table, and that was essential at a large public school. (I wasn't surprised to see my alma matter on ABC nightly news about 4 years ago after there had been a major drug ring busted there!) I learned more about grace from a young woman in my high school choir who was raised charismatic and wound up a Methodist than I ever learned from any male or CofC friends. But, as others have mentioned, I see gender justice as one of several issues related to the larger question of what it means to work for a more just world as a whole.
Julie, I love Garrison Keillor! Maybe I'll have to consider relocating to Lake Woebegon.
Blessings,
Chad
Brookline, MA
:::posted by Chad on 9/21/2002 10:02:00 AM
Patty - One does not have to go to Bible college or have a degree in Bible to preach. My husband is an excellent teacher/preacher - and I am not biased! - and his Master's was in in Business Mgmt. Just last year he received his PhD in Christian Counseling. The fact that he is not a product of a specific school's theology has been a plus for him. This might be one of those cases where a woman would have to have the degree in order to be taken seriously. There are many women already preaching (a former BSF "lecturer" comes to mind), but, because there are no men present, it isn't considered preaching. Go figure. (And go preach!)
TO ALL the nomads represented here, a thought/question: Do the transitions in our lives from place to place grow us into a more flexible people? Every place is different in climate, in culture, in lingo, in attitude. Either we adapt, or we're unhappy and miserable people, longing to return to that which we know.
Loving you all more intimately today,
Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/20/2002 08:04:16 PM
I guess we have moved from the talent portion to the short answer. :-)
I'll add to my bio started earlier.
I am 31 years old and have been married for just over a year to a wonderful man who God was saving for me. I grew up in Connecticut, even attended college there except for one year at Northeaster Christian Junior College, a now defunct c of c school that most of the country has never heard of. Attended the same small congregation for most of my life a church my parents helped start when I was about 5. The great thing about our congregation was that we were mostly 1st generation in the c of c and those who were further entrenched were college professors with a good grasp of studying to learn. We (as a church) approached scripture with a pretty open mind. We also went through a period of about 6 years without a paid minister. The men of the congregation taught all the classes and did half of the preaching, the other half was from men from other congregations that we could get to come for a stipend. No one at our church had a bible degree and yet the preaching was good most of the time. It also meant that anyone who was willing and able to do anything outside of the assemply, was not only allowed but encouraged. At the time that the ministers left the eldership also disolved. For 11+ years all decisions have been made in congregational meetings held every 6 weeks. The only thing that ever made me feel like I couldn't speak at a meeting like that was my age when I was younger.
It is interesting to me that one of the main reasons given by my father (a former elder and still very much a leader) for not studying gender issues is the small size of the congregation (40-50 members), and yet those of you in large congregations can attest to how difficult it is to deal with this issue, and even get it noticed, because of how large your congregation is. Ultimately I don't know that size has that much to do with it. It just brings up different issues.
A couple of years after college I moved to St Louis to train to be a missionary and return to the north east, an important mission field. Instead God called me to remain in St. Louis and work with an inner-city ministry, which I did for several years. I learned some valuable lessons about working as a team in a ministry. Mostly about what doesn't work.
It has taken me years to acknowledge that what I really want and am called to be is to be a preacher. I have been preaching on a small scale to most of the people in my life since I was quite young. Not always effectively, but always passionatly. For various reasons I have not gone to school yet for it and can't at the present time, but it is in the plans for my future before too very long. Those of you who want scholarships for cofc women going into ministry get working on them. I'll need one in about 2008 or so. :-)
I love hearing about all of you and what got you to where you are.
The experience that catipulted me into this issue was when I was teaching a college bible study in my home and a minister from another congregation chastized me for it saying that it was not only wrong for me to be leading a bible study with men attending but that the leadership of my congregation was also wrong to allow it. (they encouraged it and even gave us a budget) When we became an official campus group he refused to let me be the president of it (when I was voted to it) since I am a woman but I could be the chairperson. He is another story, but I am thankful for his outrageousness, it made me aware of the contradictions in my own life and brought me to where I am today.
Patty Lacoss-Arnold
St. Louis, MO
:::posted by Patty on 9/20/2002 07:13:48 PM
I guess I'm one of the young'uns. I'm 24. In addition to Mass. where I've lived for a year (we were driving our UHaul trailer here on Sept. 11), I've lived in CA, OR, and AR. Sorry to insult the Texans. When I went to Harding, every year at convocation when the Texas flag was brought in (they brought in flags from all of the states and countries that students came from) the Texans always raised a huge ruckus. Then everyone else would hiss. It was a yearly tradition. Texans are either proud of their state or full of themselves. I guess it depends on how you look at it. But, since I am outnumbered, I'll try to keep the Texas insults to a minimum.
:::posted by Indie on 9/20/2002 06:09:59 PM
Friends,
Wow! When I suggested that we all identify ourselves by city I didn't expect to hear so many biographical sketches. I love reading all your stories. And, Tom, your description of "y'all" was exactly right, and your post renews my hope for the survival of civilization. If I ask, "How are y'all doin'?" and you are the only person in the room, then I am indeed asking about your family, and expect you to tell me if your dog had pups or your Mama's feelin' poorly.
Now I suppose I should identify myself a little better, since you all have been so forthcoming. I was born in Chattanooga (5th generation in the Church of Christ) and grew up in Birmingham, near Houston, in North Alabama, and in western Colorado. After graduating from Lipscomb in 1983, I had a strong sense that my Bible professors had been trying hard to protect me from learning something, and I wanted to find out what they were afraid of. So I attended graduate schools in Cincinnati and Connecticut. Mary Lou moved to Connecticut when we married, since I was still in school. Then we moved to Nashville for her job, to Chicago for her job, and now to North Carolina for my job. At last, we both have jobs we really like in the same area.
We have met wonderful people at various congregations all along the way. In response to some posts, I suppose our interest in the gender justice issue is partly generational, but I think maybe also my own thinking has been influenced by the fact that I grew up in several states. I think that experience affected me by teaching me that "we've always done it that way" simply doesn't fly as an argument for anything, because in the next state over they always did it some other way. The more I have been exposed to different kinds of people with different ways of practicing their Christianity, the more I've had to think for myself what I should do in light of the gospel, and the less I've been able to fall back on habit or local tradition. Teaching in a Roman Catholic university and now in an AME Zion seminary have no doubt contributed to the process, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I have, I think, the best job in the world--I get paid to study and talk about the Bible. I have been fortunate to teach in institutions that have not been looking over my shoulder to check for doctrinal correctness. Surely one of the things most harmful to faith is when religious leaders shut down discussion because a question seems unorthodox. If we don't give one another room to ask questions, how will each generation learn what they believe?
Grace be with you all,
Christopher Hutson
Salisbury, NC
:::posted by Christopher on 9/20/2002 05:25:51 PM
Ann, I love you! Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/20/2002 04:52:14 PM
Hi Friends,
Sorry for my hiatus. Life kind of spun out of control once the school year started. Also, the struggle for gender equity has been reheating and taking up a fair amount of my energy here. But all efforts have been positive. Things are getting pretty exciting around here. But I've been too tired to do more than listen to your conversation for a while. I really need the re-charging I'm counting on from the upcoming ZOE conference.
I am 37 and live in Bowie, Maryland with Julie. I've lived here all my life. I don't know how y'all can move around so much! Pretty much my entire life has been at the Bowie Church of Christ. In fact, the building was built in the same year I was born. During college I (usually) attended CofC's. For 3 or 4 months I left and visited other churches in town but came back. I guess I'd rather be a rebel than a refugee.
Tom, I'm with you on the beauty pagent: if I have to shave my legs, I'm not entering!
It's good to be back.
Love,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/20/2002 03:41:50 PM
Vicki - you forgot stubborn, opinionated, and choco-holic (not always in that order) and you’re are wrong on the beautiful thing, you are beautiful!
I am 38, 39 next month, divorced and re-married, my children are 18, 16, and 14 and a 15-year-old stepdaughter, and at every opportunity, a 2-1/2 year old great-niece. My 18 year old enlisted in the Navy yesterday. Peter is my favorite apostle, and my favorite verse is every verse that says in one form or another, "LORD, YOU ARE MY ROCK!"
Grace!
Shell
:::posted by Shelly on 9/20/2002 12:39:06 PM
Wiley,
I knew from your past posts that you were near Granbury, which is why I mentioned it specifically. I know of those towns, but moved away from the area (Whitney) when I was two. Preachers' families may not move quite at the rate of military families, but it tends to be up there.
Shelly,
As one who spent most of my formative years in the South, and as an amateur linguist to boot (a dangerous combination), I think it's more like "you" (or "yuh") is specifically singular ("how're yuh doin'?"), "y'all" is a collective case that includes the person being addressed and his/her immediate family ("how're y'all doin'?"), and "all y'all" is a plural form that draws in everyone in hearing range ("How are all y'all?"). But, your milage may vary. Oh, and I'm 42.
Back on track, it strikes me that so many of you (including me) have lived in a lot of different places. I wonder what impact that has on where you stand on gender justice. What does that mean for prospects of change? Traveling seems to help in general, but I know some significant exceptions from my missionary kid days. How can we open peoples eyes to the broader perspective?
I know for me that living in different parts of the US and Africa and traveling in Europe has had a significant impact in opening my eyes to divergences of opinion on this and many other issues. In Arkansas, "mixed-bathing" (sounds so much worse than "gender integrated swimming") was considered a really bad thing, and certainly not something that churches would be involved in. In California, our congregation one night rented the city pool for a swimming fellowship.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/20/2002 12:30:06 PM
Shelly - A little Texas grammar lesson; Y'all is singular. All y'all is plural.
I know it isn't nice to ask people how old they are, but I thought it would be interesting to know the age spans. Some are under the impression that this is a "young" women's thing, others that it is a fallout from those of the '70's. I'll be brave and go first. I'm 48, 49 next month. My kids are 14 and almost 11, which makes some think I am younger.
More useless personal trivia: I've lived in central FL, VA, and OK, as well as previously mentioned WNY. I am divorced, widowed and married, in that order. I was raised in CoC, but took a side trip with Independent Baptists, and a long walk on the wild side. When my husband died, I gave my life and my son to the God of All Comfort. I contracted Hepatitis C from transfusions following a car/motorcycle accident in Tampa, FL, April Fools' Day, 1977. I am a non-responder to Rebetron, and depend solely on the God of All Healing to keep me ticking. I have a love/hate relationship with being in full-time ministry. I love ministry, but hate the fishbowl. Guess I'm just a rebel at heart. I am at the Tulsa Workshop every year. I am not, nor have I ever been, beautiful, talented or athletic. I love being in East Texas, and I love my church family. Come visit us sometime at the North Lindale Church (of Christ).
Well, that's all of my baggage! Write more about yourselves. I'm fascinated by - all y'all!
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/20/2002 11:42:52 AM
I live outside of Walnut Springs, TX, which is 12 miles north of Meridian, 12 miles south of Glen Rose, 10 east of Iredell, and 10 miles west of Morgan. In other words, we are VERY rural. Watched the deer and turkey out our back doors (large glass style) this morning!
I am also 33 miles south of Granbury and we are members of the Granbury CoC and I'll bet Tom probably knows every one of those towns I named.
My wife and I both work at the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station (one of Texas' two nuclear powered electric generating plants between Glen Rose and Granbury).
A more complete write up (along with photos of us, among other things) can be found at http://www.clarksons.org.
Oh, and I have absolutely know idea if we are related to Ms. Kelly Clarkson along the way (suspect we may be at some remote point)but it's nice to see a a very talented Clarkson in the news!!!
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/20/2002 10:56:34 AM
Don't let Vicki fool you, she's just an ol' (notice I DID NOT SAY OLD) country girl at heart! I'm her sister, Shelly. I'm in INDY where her roots are. I've lived everywhere from Phoenix to Charlotte and the barrier Islands outside Charleston. Talent, huh, usually mine is opening my mouth before engaging my brain!
Nice to "meet" ya'all!!
S.
:::posted by Shelly on 9/20/2002 09:54:15 AM
Near Frederick, MD, about 60 miles north of Washington and 60 miles west of Baltimore. Born in Granbury, TX. Got here via Arkansas, Tanzania (East Africa), Ghana (West Africa), New Jersey and San Diego County CA. Semi-reformed preacher/missionary kid. Never entered any beauty contests, though. I guess my legs were too hairy.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/20/2002 09:40:12 AM
As long as I can wear my Gardenweb.com t-shirt over the swimsuit... and the shorts with all the pockets for my bandana, garden tools and cell phone.
Sorry, my post about Tyler made perfect sense to me: In Texas-miles, Lindale and Tyler are in the same neighborhood. East Texas is unique as neighborhoods go.
(my gardening obsession is in view on my Yahoo photos - Look at one of the pond albums
http://photos.yahoo.com/hocndoc
(Ignore the pictures of my beautiful daughter's wedding)
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 11:56:36 PM
Swimsuits? Scary!
ALL Y'ALL seem like pen pals now. I think I will get that map. Maybe you won't seem so far away.
-v.
:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 11:46:36 PM
God's gift of humor is so refreshing. I have laughed tonight catching up with the posts.
I live in Bowie, Maryland. It is a suburb of Washington, DC. I grew up around DC also but have lived other places inbetween.
Indie, be careful what you say or you may not win Miss Congeniality. Those Texans can be tough.
Lance, I am dying to see the baton routine. Do you use fire?
Chad, you could do a segment of This Old Theological House in Garrison Keillor style. I think you would be good at that.
Are we doing the swimsuit competition?
I love you guys! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/19/2002 09:51:53 PM
Ok, Y'ALL...I'm living proof that one can be a native Texan by birth and a New Englander at heart. I think I'll lay off the batons, since I'm sure Lance is better at that than I am. Maybe I'll try carpentry...
Chad Smith
Brookline, MA
(by way of Dallas, TX and Nashville, TN--I keep moving progressively east: next stop, Iceland!)
:::posted by Chad on 9/19/2002 09:10:21 PM
I have to confess - I'm not a REAL Texan! I'm really a born and bred Yankee. I grew up in Indianapolis, and spent 7 years in western NY's finger lakes region. But I can say "f'yont to" ("if you want to" to the rest of the world!) with the best of 'em!
Makes me want to get a big wall map with little colored pins!
:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 08:45:58 PM
Do you want our current location or where our roots are?
I'm from North-eastern Connecticut. (bet you texans didn't know it was even big enough to mention which part. :-)
Patty Lacoss-Arnold
St. Louis, Missouri
:::posted by Patty on 9/19/2002 07:07:46 PM
Imagine that. You mean I've been fraternizing with Texans! :)
Indie Davis
Boston, Massachusetts
:::posted by Indie on 9/19/2002 07:00:35 PM
Vicki,
Both my kids were born in Tyler, Texas and I'm a proud graduate of Tyler Junior College and the University of Texas at Tyler (1986). Moma and Daddy live in Athens, now, because of a coincidence, they moved there about the same time Larry and I moved to Tyler. We could have run into each other, in the last bastion of Bubba-dom, way back when! (I hope I'm not offending anyone, but it really is Bubbadom, and proud of it, sometimes.)
Carmen, thank you for your prayers.
Beverly Nuckols
New Braunfels, Texas (North of San Antonio)
:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 06:54:38 PM
I'll be the next contestant:
Lance Pape
West Islip, NY (Long Island)
I haven't settled on a routine for the talent segment yet, but I'm leaning toward batons.
:::posted by Lance on 9/19/2002 05:49:14 PM
Responding to Christopher's recent post, and feeling a little like a contestant in a beauty pageant:
Vicki Cox
Lindale, Texas! : )
(Not to worry. I'll get in my 50,000 words later!)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 03:30:28 PM
Sisters and Brothers,
I haven't posted for a while, but I do check in from time to time and read all of your notes with pleasure.
Lisa asked how we might reach those "on the bubble." My first instinct was to say that this very forum is designed partly to reach those folks. Many visitors to the site may not post to this list, but all are able to read our comments. I think and hope that some readers who have not had the experience of hearing a woman teach a Bible class or preach may benefit from the experience of reading many of the insights of women on this list. They may be affected by the consternation, frustration, humility and grace that are constantly expressed by both men and women on this list. I hope this reading experience will help folks see that the question is wide-spread in our congregations, that it is not limited to that one woman in their local congregation who keeps asking the questions. To that end, I would like to encourage all of you to include your city and state along with your signature at the end of each post. Casual readers should be able to see at a glance that we are carrying on a coast-to-coast conversation.
But, second, Patty reported how her friend visited this forum and was turned off by it. Alas, the forum won't have the desired effect on every reader. So to that end, I encourage all of you to take advantage of our "Readings" section. Note especially the sections on "getting your feet wet." Consider purchasing a spare copy or two of whatever book you have found most helpful so you can offer it to someone who is "on the bubble." With all those copies of Rowland's book floating around out there, you never know when one of them will find its target. Or consider donating a few books to your congregation's library. And, certainly, keep recommending this site.
Thanks to all of your for your interesting conversation.
Grace be with you,
Christopher Hutson,
Salisbury, North Carolina
:::posted by Christopher on 9/19/2002 02:10:41 PM
Beverly, I'm afraid that you're right about the church at large not being ready. From my reading, the story of the Bible is not about God, it is the epic saga of the archetypal Man and Woman. God is the storyteller/matchmaker who agonzies with the lovers compelling them through every influence and tutoring them in the way of One over many. And as the divine storyteller, God takes on their struggles as his own ... becoming Sin, leaving Paradise, like the woman in the garden, He suffers the rejection of his beloved Jerusalem and (like the Woman) opens Himself up to blood and pain in order to give Jerusalem a New Birth. At the cross, Mary and John bring full circle the Man and Woman at the Tree in the Garden. If we think in terms of One in the way we conduct every aspect of our lives, then differences are peripheral. But we are not ready for that. The idea of the Bible being one story rather than many is too big and so we break it up into little books of rules and protocol for "daily living". Beverly, I have been praying for you ever since I read your annoucement on the Grace Centered board. You are in the protection of a God who knows your story. And you're right. Violence against women is deeply entrenched in psychological and cultural angst promoted by a corrupt understanding of the One. The church has the healing solution to the world's problems but we will not even look at it to heal ourselves.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/19/2002 12:09:45 PM
Thanks for the names, Julie!
I agree that we need to watch for contemplation, precontemplation, etc. And support our sisters when they seem ready. But, every chance we get, we need to educate.
The "principle" of the scripture vs. the letter is accepted by many men and women when it comes to so many passages that could be considered commands, such as those on foot washing and hair braiding. We should emphasize this where appropriate, but I'm still convinced that the scripture is clearly *not* as clear as we've been taught. And understanding the original words as well as the intent could wipe away any the delemmas of 1 Cor 11 vs. 14, and the leadership roles of Phoebe and Junia vs. 1 Tim 2.
For example, over on that other board (Berean Spirit) I posted 1 Tim 2:11, 12 with "peaceable" (as in verse 2 in the NIV) for "hesuchios/hesuchias." This simple change - using the word/connotation used by the same, respected scholars, in translation from the Greek to the English completely changes the way the passages read. In the same way, there is a strong case that "usurp authority" is more appropriate than "exercise authority" because of the date of the letter. How many would risk implying that the letter to Timothy is a second century document when confronted with the evidence that during Paul's lifetime, the word ("authentein") implied much more than trying to be a leader.
The same goes for 1 Cor14:34,35. If these verses are read as parallel to the examples in the rest of the chapter, as supported by the words Paul chose, then it's more clear that Paul was concerned with fit and orderly worship, and had no intention of keeping the women silent.
(And I'm aware that I'm not doing what I say "we" must do. But, our church just isn't ready. When he was teaching 1 Cor this last spring, Larry handed out copies of the book " I Permit Not a Woman" by Rowland to our elders, preachers, and entire Sunday Bible class and got virtually no feedback. He and I sounded out the preacher and a couple of elders and the consensus was "not now." And I'll never forget the absolute silence followed by *not* being included in the "Ladies class" prayer after I asked. Because I mentioned that I believed that our culture of teaching our girls to be submissive and our boys to expect it added to the violence against women in the world. (The night after I was invited to be on the National Advisory Committee on Violence Against Women) I asked for prayer, and was only included in the "If I've forgotten any one, Lord." Only one woman spoke to me after the prayer. So, I backed off or ran away.) (This sounds like whining, but, I'm going to post it, anyway, 'cause I feel the need to explain.)
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 12:59:31 AM
I would like to add a few thoughts to the idea that Katie hit on about doing the groundwork in a congregation. In addition to the items she mentioned, it seems important to teach about the nature of scripture. What is God's word trying to tell us? What is eternally relevant and what is historically particular? My husband and I are co-teaching a class on the nature of scripture. We are using God's Holy Fire from the ACU press and Fee and Stewart's book How to Read the Bible for all It's Worth. There were six of our 14 elders in there tonight. We discussed what we bring as people to the scripture that influence/determine our presuppositions. Asking, "What is this passage saying in the there and then? What does it say in the here and now?" is critical. Examining our presuppositions seems essential to any change in gender roles and limitations. I am convinced that many Christians do not know what scripture teaches. They know what they have been taught about was scripture teaches. Sometimes the teaching is right on the mark. Sometimes it's in error. I don't want people to believe what I teach them. I want to believe what the Bible teaches them! The right questions must be asked of Scripture before the right answers will come.
I think that possibly doing the groundwork from this position brings down the defensiveness of others. I very much doubt that this is always true, but is at least sometimes true. Think of it with this analogy: If the goal is to get into the house, you can go in through the front door, back door, or a window. If you cannot get in through the front door, it is a better use of energy to try a different door or the window. Ringing the doorbell *should* work. But, if it doesn't work, stop ringing the bell, try a different point of entry.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Blessings,
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 9/18/2002 10:16:23 PM
Wow! You've all been typing like crazy! Just a quick note to Beverly...make a point to meet my very good friends at Sunset Ridge...Steve and Kim Gilbert. They are wonderful and you will feel immediately at home with them. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/18/2002 10:01:52 PM
Mary Lou responds to Lance's evangelism point in a most interesting way, talking about women who are already baptized, church-going Christians, and therefore usually outside the scope of our evangelistic efforts. She reminds me of a book on my shelf, Walter Brueggemann's "Biblical Perspectives on Evangelism." Brueggemann persuasively argues (from the Old Testament, of course) that the church must first evangelize -- that is, share good news -- with its own folks before it goes out to convert the masses, and that this re-evangelism of one another is a never-ending process. We gather on Sundays to testify to God's work in our lives and our world -- to evangelize each other! -- and of course, we have a primary obligation to evangelize our own children. When the church behaves badly toward its own members -- when we make Christ's call to discipleship sound like bad news to those who are already on the road -- we are not fulfilling our primary evangelistic responsibility.
I mention Mary Lou's (Brueggemann's) idea because it dovetails with Lisa's (Prucheska's) five steps to change -- precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance, which I like very much. What I'm trying to get at is that gender justice is not an isolated idea -- we are asking our churches to go through these five steps over and over again with each new step in the road toward something as radical as "breaking down the dividing wall between us," Eph. 2:14. There are so many assumptions one has to change before one can get to the essential nature of the gender question. One example would be, you might have to change what you mean by "evangelism." Yes, we have to consider those outside the Christian faith who can't comprehend our inequitable practices. But are we not obliged first and forever to make sure that our church offers good news to our wives, our daughters, our mothers, our sisters?
This is surely a fuzzy beginning to the answer Joe's looking for: how do we make progress in our congregations on this issue? I would think a preacher or teacher in such a church would want to back up from the issue of gender and see if the groundwork has been laid. Is this congregation ready for the God of Surprises, the God Who Almost Never Does What You Expect God To Do? Has this congregation learned from scripture that God identifies with, chooses, lifts up, privileges those poor souls that the world exploits, takes advantage of, disrespects? Is this congregation humble enough to be fluid and malleable, clay in the hands of a Potter who sometimes breaks it down in order to build it up? Does this congregation believe in resurrection, as in, you (we) have to die in order to experience the fullness of God's power and love? (Or is this congregation afraid to die? lose numbers? lose friends? lose money? lose status?)
These are markers of a congregational identity that can be developed over time so that it is ready when the Spirit huffs and puffs and blows its gender hierarchy down.
peace -- Katie
p.s. Joe, the moderator of this forum, and his wife Laura, are expecting a baby in March. That's what Patty's congratulations are for. I'm going to be an aunt, again!
:::posted by Katie on 9/18/2002 08:21:33 PM
I personally directed a friend who is on the bubble (although she won't admit it) to this site. Unfortunatly she misunderstood what I told her and only read the message board stuff. It unfortunatly didn't make the best impression, but she isn't to where most of us are, yet. I wanted her to read the articles. She is one of those women who is caught in the middle. Not convinced that it is right and not convinced that it is wrong. She knows that I want to be a preacher and has never attempted to talk me out of it. She currently attends a congregation that is more restrictive than she beleives in and has found herself in the uncomfortable position of defending gender justice, (to a very small degree).
I honestly don't know where to send her to discuss it. Most, if not all of us here, have made up our minds and aren't really discussing the why's and why nots. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
Joe- first congradulations! I just got word from your sister. I want to add to your question unfortunatly I don't have any answers. I am currently drafting a letter to the elders of our congregation explaining our (mine and my husband's) understanding of scripture in reguards to gender. I know they often here from those opposed to any participation of women when there is any hint of it and I want to add my voice to those who are pro gender justice. I have been heartened to learn that many, many members (more women than men, go figure) are ready for some version of gender justice in our congregation. (for whatever reason preachers and elders is a sticking point for most people). Including (reportedly) the preacher's wife. I know at least one of the elders is also for it but not all the way. Ultimately I believe that talking is the only way to make a difference. It was what changed my father from completely opposed to it to now completely in favor. (well except for elders, he's just not sure on that point and has an interesting theory of an early christian office of widow being comparable, but female apostles are just fine :-)). Although his small congregation in CT is unwilling to tackle the issue they are completely willing to have fellowship with the Stamford church when it is possible and my parents have been at the front of efforts to keep the local christian camp from drawing lines of fellowship on these issues.
Mary Lou- I personally haven't met women like that. I am sure that they exist, and perhaps I just don't ask the right questions. Our church is pretty active and willing to let women do pretty much anything that doesn't involve sunday morning. We organize and lead lots of things, just not worship services. Some comittees are all women (our annual church family encampment comes to mind). Not by design, just because it happened that way. I have been blessed by going to small churches I guess. Small churches can't afford to only have men active and doing the work. That is a luxury that only larger congregations can afford.
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/18/2002 06:04:52 PM
Carmen is right, it is on everyone's mind, but some of those that we would identify as being "on the bubble," do not self-identify in that way. There are women out there who feel intensely frustrated with their church experience but they have not been in an environment where anything different is even an option, so they don't think of it in those terms. This goes to Lance's point about evangelism. One of the saddest experiences I have had in this regard was nearly ten years ago. We were living in Nashville and I was talking to a friend there, a woman my age (thirtyish at the time), a woman who is the daughter of an elder at a prominent congregation, and we were talking about how we just didn't feel connected or involved at church, and she said, "the only reason I go is so I won't lose the habit of it." I was stunned that she would say that but I understood where she was coming from. She's a wife and a mother, and it would not be acceptable for her not to go to church, but she did not feel she was getting anything out of it.
I have spoken to many other women who tell me where they are attending church and when I ask them what they like about it, what programs have been meaningful to them, they reply to the effect of, "we mainly go for the children's programs." There is a whole generation of women out there who hold responsible jobs and make decisions at work and fully participate as equal partners in their marriages, who go to churches where they are silenced. And we wonder why we are having trouble keeping this generation in the churches of Christ, why they are wandering off into other denominations or giving up on church altogether. I don't know how to reach them other than by allowing them a place to see that it's not like that everywhere and you can take scripture seriously and take Paul's letters seriously and ALSO allow women full participation in worship. For some of them, the light will go on.
--Mary Lou
:::posted by Mary Lou on 9/18/2002 03:41:02 PM
Someone asked about forums for reaching those on the bubble. In my experience women seem to open up about injustice and inequity in the church at women's retreats. Don't get me wrong, it is never on the agenda. The discussions usually come up in the cabins at night or during free-time and do not involve more than an handfull of women and are never a planned event. They just happen. Which clues me in that it is on everyone's mind all of the time.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/18/2002 02:08:37 AM
Wow! The board is great today! I don't know about everyone else but I've just been busy ... checking in but too lazy to respond. Patti's post, in the context of this particular community, seemed to me to be about love. How each of us are judged first by the measure of love we are capable of, and how the truth of justice and equity must first meet the demands of love. I agree with that. However, I completely understand Vicki's response as well. How are we supposed to experience or teach strength in love detached from all that is unjust? A Chrisitan woman friend once told me that patiently and quietly suffering the injustice of being a woman in the church of Christ was actually a blessing because it fostered spiritual attribute of humility. I do not believe that Christ called me to brood over my pettiness with masochistic self-disgust and take pride in it to boot. Yes, it is true that humility is a necessary precondition of faith. But if we crown ourselves as martyrs that is not humility it is a farce of humility and then we will not have the faith of Christ. So how do we balance truth with love? The call to gender-justice is an imperfect beginning in the work of reconcilliation. The work of gender-justice requires intense work in humility on the part of all concerned even if some are only working toward an aesthetic for the purpose of evangelism. Then, hopefully, time will perfect us in faith toward the new reality of reconcilliation.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/18/2002 01:54:00 AM
You know, I guess what bugs me the most is that we're not talking about non-essentials here. One can sit on the bubble when deciding whether or not it's OK to sing contemporary songs, clap when singing contemporary songs, or having a praise team lead contemporary songs. But one can’t sit on the bubble on this one. We're talking about the sin of prejudice, the sin of prejudging someone's acceptance by God based ONLY on their physical appearance the moment they pop out of the womb. And it seems to be a totally acceptable practice. Prejudice is sin, whether talking about race or gender. There is enough to read on this site alone to help one get off the bubble! Go to the church links. There are complete studies available. Don't sit on the bubble. It's lukewarm up there.
:::posted by Vicki on 9/18/2002 12:11:14 AM
I just thought y'all were all really busy.
We're starting to get a few calls here and a note there from members of the church we left, after we've been gone 3 weeks. Most are confused about why we left. I guess I was pretty good -or too good - at keeping my mouth shut.
Sunday, we visited the Sunset Ridge Church of Christ in San Antonio. A woman made the announcements - before the opening prayer, though. And there *were* women serving the Lord's Supper - one was pregnant! Otherwise, the service seemed like a normal church service (now that I'm used to the lack of piano). The people were very friendly, and I think we'll go back for Sunday School this week. There seem to be women teaching the adult classes. I just wish it weren't so far away. It will be hard to make it for Wednesday nite, for example. I will miss that.
Lance, your first post today was incredible. And your second makes me jealous. I would love to be in a situation where I didn't have to notice because there's nothing to notice. Enjoy, and God bless.
As a matter of fact, may God bless us all!
Beverly Nuckols
:::posted by Beverly on 9/18/2002 12:01:16 AM
Lance,
I totally agree that offense is inevitable. Beyond any doubt, Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders of his day and he certainly did not appear to hold back due to concerns about their toes. I remember the future when I hear the pain and impatience of others. The women in the church's future will probably be bolder and more impatient. This goes to the evangelism piece. We will lose people. We will lose talent. We're losing talent now whether it is sitting quietly in the pew or exiting to a more accepting environment.
Here is a challenge for me. I mentally step back and look at our church as a system. I visualize those in the middle. The "Change maybe somedays." They seem calm and open. I feel that way some days. I see those on both ends. The "Change nows" and the "Change nevers". The "change nows" have an anxious sense of urgency. I feel that some days. The "change nevers" have an anxious sense of protectiveness. I rarely have this one. I want the calmness of the middle and change all at the same time. That's "wishfullness" rather than "realfullness." I think maybe the mental shift that I need to make is to change my focus on to the "change maybe somedays." The "change never" people kinda drive me crazy. How do you love someone and think "get out of the stone ages!" all at the same time?
Maybe this will be helpful, a psychologist by the name of Prochaska has identified 5 Stages of Change. In a nutshell they are: 1) Precontemplation - as in not thinking about it. 2) Contemplation - as in considering it. 3)Preparation - small steps, small changes. 4) Action - consistently doing it differently over a period of time. 5)maintenance - doing the change differently forever. Prochaska would say that you cannot successfully do action without doing contemplation and prepartion. That makes sense to me. Maybe the first step in changing our churches is in identifying where people are in the Stages. If someome is at precontemplation, they will panic if you are urging action.
Anyway, something to think about, I guess.
Blessings,
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 9/17/2002 10:56:51 PM
As Lisa suggests, there is some tension between the two halves of the site’s purpose statement; for now that tension seems to settle in the forum.
I think quite a bit about how the forum discussions must strike those who are undecided and come to the site as part of their decision-making process. My view for now is that giving offense is probably inevitable and that the best we can do is try to make sure that the offense we give is focused on the issue itself and not some distraction from the issue. For example, a good reason to risk offense would be that we are impatient for justice and are effectively giving voice to the pain and sorrow we feel when justice is delayed. A bad reason (hopefully not to dig up and rehash an old issue) might be that we are so tired and battle-worn that we become a little crass in expressing our frustrations. If one lives with this issue long enough, one is going to be guilty of this eventually (mea culpa); but we should try our best to help each other keep it in check.
As for Patty’s post, I know Patty well enough to be sure that she meant well. But, I was feeling a little protective of Vicki, probably because, as I indicated, I bring some baggage to this discussion (i.e. periodic complaints about my “obsession” with this issue being a distraction from what is essential).
This brings up one of the weaknesses of an online community. Most of us only know each other from this one context. There is no way any of you could know (unless I should say) that I preach much more about Philippians 2:5-11 and Matthew 25:31ff than Galatians 3:28 or Romans 16. The last sermon I preached about gender justice was, I think, sometime in the Spring of 2001. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard Katie say anything about gender justice from the pulpit. She has gone out of her way to not let this become “her issue” as a minister. But how could any of you know any of this since our relationships with each are worked out through the filter of this forum. Most of you only know me and Katie as advocates of this one issue. I guess I don’t see how it could very well be any other way. I might wish you peace on 9/11, and Wiley might offhandedly mention that he is going dove hunting, but for the most part we know each other as people who are passionate about gender justice.
As for Lisa’s question about persuasion, the single most persuasive thing I know of is listening to a gifted woman preach. If someone with a soft heart will listen to Katie preach for fifteen minutes, they will never again rest easy in the certainty that the Spirit doesn’t gift women to preach. (No pressure, Kate!)
:::posted by Lance on 9/17/2002 10:05:02 PM
Lisa raises a great question for all of us to ponder and discuss: "How do we persuade gender justice in our own congregations and across the brother/sisterhood?" and "How do we find those on the bubble and persuade them?" Some of you who have "been there and done that" please respond. You can look on the site for several great readings that talk about this specific issue but it would be great to hear from all of you.
:::posted by jch on 9/17/2002 06:23:26 PM
I need to speak up about a couple of concerns:
First, I was surprised (and relieved?) to see Patty's post. I honestly thought that I may have been the one to have placed an offensive and silencing post. Boy, did I ever feel caught. I feel offensive at church because I'm a "feminist" . Offensive here because I'm overwhelmed by other's pain. Maybe I'm offensive because I strive to be a peaceful warrior. I try to stay calm about gender justice because I know me. If I get angry, I can knock people over with my words. Being verbally quick can be both a gift and a vice unless submitted and submitted to God again and again and again....
Secondly, I'm concerned that individuals who are open to change, but are on the bubble may feel unwelcome. Which leads me to this question: What is the primary purpose of this forum? What is the secondary purpose? If the primary purpose is to provide a safe haven, in my experience, it does a good job of that. However, if the primary or even secondary purpose is to persuade church of Christ members who are on the bubble of acceptance of change, then I'm not sure that's happening. Please accept this as loving and from my heart. I hope no one finds offense because absolutely none is intended. Obviously, this forum cannot be all things to all people.
I just re-read the purpose statement which was "mutual support, communication, and edification" (did I get it right?). That sounds more like a safe haven to me. Let me be clear, I think that is great. Here's what I want to know: How do we persuade gender justice in our own congregations and across the brotherhood? How do we find those on the bubble and persuade them?
Blessings,
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 9/17/2002 05:42:04 PM
Dear Patty,
Friendly Fire comes to mind.
I confess that I am overly-sensitive on this issue. I guess you could say I have very sore toes, and the least little touch hurts. It’s not just the lack of love from elders and women I considered mentors that brings heartache, but the fact that they are just downright mean! They don’t step on toes, they stomp on them! It seems that stones and spears are thrown from every direction - friend and foe, alike. So I duck. The temptation to pick one up and throw it back is always there. Weary? Yes, I understand weary.
I did a lot of thinking for several days after your post. I needed to be sure that I had not “crossed over”, to be sure that love is still my motivation. It’s always good to listen and think. So I thank you for making me take the time to think.
Know that if God is calling you back into this battle, I welcome you as my comrade.
Thank God for the Gift on the cross that covers us all!
-Vicki
Lance - Your statement "…there can be no love without truth, and no truth without love," is quotable! And the Hallmark card comparison made me laugh out loud. It's so true! Jesus wasn't warm and fuzzy over sin. He lovingly confronted it. (Why is it so hard for us to do the same?)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/17/2002 05:33:02 PM
Lance,
Have you ever wanted to make a comment and just flat didn't know how to word it? Being a moderator on another forum, I usually don't have too much trouble but this time I'm not sure how to go where I want to go without sounding pretty bitter over some of this. I'm afraid if I get too wordy, I will go off on a tangent and write a book!
We have just barely started stepping out of the racist stigma we have carried all these years. Since the 50's and the racism (not to mention the gender issue) that openly existed in almost all white churches, it has taken 50 years to get ACU, along with just a few churches to actually admit to the racism and discriminatory practices, and that's only just been in the last two years. Yet, those same churches/institutions cannot seem to grasp the simple fact of gender discrimination! Just several weeks ago, I heard an elder at our church make the comment regarding being told that the women's class the day before had spent 15 minutes questioning why women can't help serve the Lord's Supper made the statement "that won't happen as long as I'm an elder here"---and we are a multi racial church!!! I literally had to almost bite my tongue off to keep from jumping in his face--which would have obviously been counter productive. Do you really think we stand a chance of even getting a real foothold in just one generation? I'm a fairly optimistic person most of the time, but after knowing about and hearing about the activities in one particular church that was once moving forward (slowly- but moving) until 6 months ago, I have to admit to some pessimism right now. My wife is so mad at that particular congregation's eldership that she won't hardly talk about it! I'm wondering how long it will be before ACU, which seems to be a trend setter institution for a percentage of our congregations, will actually step out and say they have helped foster the gender discrimination issue all these years? Once one domino falls.... We've seen some excellent books that have been published from ACU but they are all on a "flying solo" basis. ACU has been real good at encouraging women to do the graduate level work and try to go into ministry, but they are not real good with the financial aid for women (who need it worse than the men because of future earning power) and the job placement!!! If ACU would come out of the closet, take an official published position, and run a Lectureship with Gender Justice as a/the key topic, it would probably be the key to many churches starting to really study the issue. We might see a target of a generation if that were to happen. Of course, Physics Class teaches for every action there is a reaction, and in this case, since the reaction that would hurt ACU the most would be an expected loss of funding from the traditional sector, I'm not holding my breath for it to happen anytime soon (but I have been wrong before--and I sure hope I am this time)!!!
I guess I've vented enough for right now. Back to fixing computers on my day off (including my wife's). Then maybe a little dove hunting!
:::posted by Wiley on 9/17/2002 04:45:05 PM
I want to begin by apologizing to any and all who thought that I was criticizing you in any way. I was not. If I was criticizing anyone it was myself and confessing my weakness to all of you. I haven't posted much here but I too feel safe here. It is a place where everyone "gets it". I don't feel like I need to explain myself and apparently I assumed that all of you could see inside of my head. :-) Sorry to all of you not granted the "gift of telepathy".
It is because I hold all of you in such high esteem that I posted the importance of loving God and loving others. I belive that it is impossible to follow that and not pursue gender justice. I know that I get caught up in majoring in minors from time to time. I was not accusing any of you of doing that. I do however recognize it as a human weakness and wanted to nudge any of you who were drifting that way. I want for everyone I know to develop a better and better relationship with our Lord and Savior. I was attempting to interject a message that was on my heart that night. I personally need to hear it all the time and hadn't in a while. It was an attempt to affirm to all of you that those who deny gender justice are hurting their brothers and sisters and their relationship with God and in my humble opinion sinning. I felt that it needed to be balanced by the possibility of the converse sin of making that the most important issued.
I will be eternally indebted to the men and women of various churches who have spent years of their lives studying, presenting, convincing and crying so that a road map is already drawn for the rest of us. I have no doubt that God is well pleased by their effort to honor him through this work.
I am further indebted to all of you for giving me the nudge I needed to become active in this issue again and for your wielding of hammers, velvet clothed or otherwise. I laid mine down a couple of years ago out of weariness and have been considering taking it up again lately. That is thanks to all of you.
To be 100% honest, if it weren't for the loving note that I got from Katie today I would have no idea that what I had said was what was being responded to in the previous couple of posts. My intent was to encourage and it came across to many of you as criticism. For that I am truly sorry. There is enough heart ache for all of us who know the truth of God's plan for his people and aren't allowed to live it on Sunday morning without my contributing to it no matter how unwittingly. I have not re-read it. I am certain that what I meant and what I said were not the same thing. I was feeling very emotional that night.
Moderator please, please delete it. I have no desire to cause further pain to those who haven't read it yet.
In Sisterly love,
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/17/2002 04:08:50 PM
Vicki,
Thanks for the honesty of your post. I get e-mail occasionally that criticizes the site’s focus. People writing in to say that this issue I’m promoting is distracting attention and resources away from what “really matters.” It turns out that what “really matters” is a matter of some debate. The three most common candidates with my canned responses are:
“Neighbor Love”
I'm with Vicki: the choice between love and truth is a false one. My conviction is that there can be no love without truth, and no truth without love. If I really love someone, I can and will endure the suffering that comes with telling them the truth and listening to them when they try to tell me the truth. On the other hand, anything I do or say in the name of truth becomes a “noisy gong or a clanging symbol” if it does not grow out of committed love (agape). Jesus loved every single person he encountered, but his life was hardly one big Hallmark card. The love he lived and died for will always be costly for everyone who encounters it.
“Evangelism”
I can’t imagine a single issue more critical to evangelism in our context than gender justice. I believe with all my heart that if we fail in this cause of gender justice, our witness will be crippled. This problem is getting worse every single day. The day is soon coming (and where I live the day has already arrived) when a church that discriminates on the basis of gender will be regarded in exactly the same light as a church that discriminates on the basis of race. Without serious progress, within a generation (give or take for location) we will essentially enjoy the evangelistic credibility of racists. A good way to recruit other racists, perhaps, but a dying way of life in the 21st century.
“The Fight Against Secular Values”
Discrimination based on the circumstances of one’s birth is the ultimate secular value. Why would anyone listen to anything we have to say about morality when we are walking around with this mossy old log in our collective eye? I don’t know about other parts of the country, but in the pluralistic society I live in, people no longer automatically look to the church for guidance on questions about ethics. In other words, our relevance to moral discourse is now an open question. If the church wants to be taken seriously in the marketplace of ideas about morality, we should stop everything and deal with the question of gender justice now.
Here endeth the rant.
:::posted by Lance on 9/17/2002 02:19:22 PM
Vicki,
I'm still here :>) Spent the day yesterday with my children's minister daughter listening to frustrations, worries, problems, etc. That included Dad buying lunch as usual (which I'm not complaining about at all :>) !) and yesterday evening watching TV with my wife, who I only see one or two evenings a week (and about 10 minutes out of each 24 hours the rest of the time) thanks to Osama!. Been checking in on the forum apx every 2 hrs this morning while repairing computers but been too busy to even let anyone know I was around. Wiley
.
:::posted by Wiley on 9/17/2002 01:51:30 PM
I came this a.m. to break the silence, but I see Julie has been here already. I wanted to ask if the silence came because it was implied that if we are angry with our brothers, we don't love them. I don't know if that's why the others have been so quiet, but it has been true for me. I also want to make one very clear statement: It is BECAUSE we love these brothers that we are in such pain over the anger of their actions toward us, the anger in their voices toward us, the anger in the faces toward us. The deeper our love for them, the deeper the pain we feel. It is no longer a question of IF we will be treated this way again, but of WHEN. We expect it. But it still hurts. If anyone is overwhelmed reading about our frustrations, pain, and yes, anger, then don't read. We need this place of refuge, safety, comfort. Please don't take it away from us because of your discomfort. Please don't make us feel that we have to tiptoe here, too. We are comrades in a battle with extremely high stakes. We need to bring to light that Christ died to bring reconciliation to all people for all time, that is, to take us all back to the Pre-Fall relationship with God. Salvation is total liberty. May we see it in our churches, in our lifetime.
:::posted by Vicki on 9/17/2002 10:59:19 AM
It has been very quiet around this forum lately. I have been busy with work, family and church. I know that this is a busy time of year and we are all trying to get back to a regular routine after summer fun. I am so looking forward to the Zoe conference in Nashville in a couple of weeks. Are any of you attending also? If so, let's make sure and meet each other so we are not talking to blank faces anymore. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/17/2002 01:07:14 AM
Jeff's 'Green Acres' comment started me thinking about how it is that once you accept Galatians 3:28 and what "both male and female" really means for the church, you begin to see more and more women in the New Testament in significant roles, and you can't avoid the issue. At the last congregation where we worshipped, the membership was very sensitive on the topic of women and did NOT want to get into this discussion. Yet every time they asked Chris to teach a class, the topic somehow came up. Acts? The women are in there. Once you see it, you can't avoid it in the text anymore in those passages where you used to read past it because "it can't mean that." Romans? Check out that 16th chapter. How about those instructions for how women should dress while praying and prophesying (and if it wasn't in a public setting, why would it matter how they were dressed to do it?).
It's like when you learned how to read. One day, those symbols on signs and pieces of paper meant nothing to you. The next day, you could read some of them, and soon you could read them all. Once they acquired meaning, you couldn't help but read them. You can't walk by a sign today without reading it; if you so much as glance at it, you have the content.
Katie raised an important issue awhile back, which is how to we get past "it's okay" and move on to "it's imperative." Someone else--was it Julie? said, and I may be oversimplifying, the worst thing is for a congregation to study it and do nothing. I agree, I've been at several congregations where it was studied, and people were ready to admit that the inclusion of women was scriptural, but they felt no prerogative to DO IT. Whereas before the study I could maintain the notion that "if they just studied it, then they would accept me," once we had studied it as a group and they did not act on it, it felt very much like a personal rejection to me and I wondered if I had held back the cause by being too forceful, wanting it too much, not being traditional enough in other ways so as to be less threatening.
I feel for those of you currently dealing with this question on a day to day basis. Where we are here in NC, no one is really approaching the issue so in a way, I have a bit of a rest from it (and I'm back in the mode of telling myself, if they studied it, they might agree with me). In terms of practical advice, Katie has written a very perceptive article about what the congregations have in common, that have made progress on the issue. In terms of what not to do, I can offer these tips:
1. Don't think that this battle can be fought in the pulpit, Change on this issue does not come from a series of forceful sermons (at least not at the front end). Minds and hearts will be reached one on one and in small groups, and change will build from there. A sermon series can be a good way to explain what has already happened to the congregation, to give everyone a framework to put their understanding on, but the basic understanding has to come first and in a more intimate setting.
2. Don't think that it will happen quickly--it won't.
3. Be prepared for the arguments around our history: why are we the first people to figure this out? Well, we're not. Our Restoration history includes women playing much more significant roles than you think, serving as deacons, and even preaching. But most of us aren't very well versed in those aspects; most of the folks who will argue that 'the church of Christ doesn't do that' do not want to think about our movement prior to 1960.
Keep the faith and above all, keep sight of the priorities mentioned a few days ago. Gender justice is not the end, it is a side effect for what we are really after.
--Mary Lou
:::posted by Mary Lou on 9/13/2002 09:18:24 PM
Jeff, I love the "Green Acres" illustration! I believe that is accurate and explains why others have such a hard time acclimating to us. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/13/2002 01:52:41 PM
Jeff said "I think what we all want to do is motivate people to ask questions..."
Patty said " . . . anything that gets in the way of loving God and loving others is sin. No matter who does it and no matter why. "
I read both of these posts this morning and these two quotes keep running through my thoughts, somehow connected. For some unknown reason it made me think of an article / interview with Max Lucado that I read in Christian Chronicle.
"The Churches of Christ need to return to the days when we did it best. Look at the convictions of the Campbells, Stone and others. Genuinely simplistic. Passionate in love. Tolerant in controversy. They accepted all who accepted Christ and disagreed agreeably. Relevant. Flexible. They took Scripture seriously, yet had respect for the mystery therein. They dreamed of restoring the faith and force of the New Testament Church … ahh, now there is a dream worthy of imitation."
Why my mind is connecting these I don't know, just thought I would share.
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 9/12/2002 03:17:34 PM
Just a quick note before I go on vacation... We are headed to Vermont for ten days - no phones, no computers -just a fire in the woodstove and lots of books to read...
I was talking to a friend this week who grew up as a Baptist and has an advanced degree in religion. She married a lifelong friend of mine a couple of years ago and they have been attending a church of Christ ever since. Her description of the church is that it's a lot like the old television show "GREEN ACRES" in that strange things happen and no one seems to take much notice except Mr. Douglas. People climb poles to talk on the telephone...that's just the way things are done. Arnold the Pig carries on long conversations with folks and everybody but Mr. Douglas can understand him. Mr. Haney sells junk at exorbitant prices and everybody just pays the price except Mr.. Douglas.
I think what we all want to do is motivate people to ask questions..."Why are we doing things the way we do with regard to gender justice?"
Have a great week! God's richest blessings on everyone here!
Peace,
jp
:::posted by Jeff on 9/12/2002 07:59:32 AM
Amen, amen, amen.
In the terrible stories of the losses and dangers on the news shows, there was some good: I heard God mentioned over and over.
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/11/2002 11:22:52 PM
I worked very hard today in my very busy labor and delivery unit. It was good to welcome new lives into the world on this day that was reminding us of so many lives lost. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/11/2002 10:23:25 PM
Grace and peace to all of you on this terrible anniversary.
:::posted by Lance on 9/11/2002 09:37:16 PM
I just returned from watching a video of the memorial service for Stanley Shipp who died 2 weeks ago. My heart is full of sadness, hope and conviction. What I learned while an intern was that loving God and loving people is all that really matters. It is actually our churches motto.
I just want to remind all of us that anything that gets in the way of loving God and loving others is sin. No matter who does it and no matter why. That means that if we focus our lives on gender issues and forget God we are sinning. Also if others focus on the gender issue in the opposite way and keep some from working for the kingdom because of it they are also sinning. All that really matters is if you live your life serving God and serving others. I know I have wandered off course some myself. I needed that reminder tonight. Perhaps it is timely for others of you as well.
Please don't mistake what I am saying. Gender justice is very important. It is part of living as God would have us. I am just urging you to make sure that imitating Christ is your goal and gender justice is the side effect of it not the other way around. I know that I get the the goal and the side effect reversed way too often.
In Him,
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/10/2002 11:12:43 PM
I can sew - clothes better than humans, sometimes.
Everyone needs a laugh, so I'll tell a story on myself.
For years, I told everyone that I had to "sew up" about making all my family's clothes for years (My poor son!) I proudly told about winning second place in the East Texas State Fair in Tyler, Texas, for a real, tailored men's suit, with the rolled collar and everything.
One day, as I was telling this story in order to distract a 9 year old boy, who was very upset about the whole process. He quieted, sniffled, and looked up at me and said,
"I wish you'd won 1st place."
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/10/2002 08:43:51 PM
(Beverly - FYI - Those minister robes are slightly higher than scrubs - easily $800! What I could do for my wardrobe with that!)
:::posted by Vicki on 9/10/2002 01:32:14 AM
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. We have talked about Oak Hills (in fact, visited there 10 or 12 years ago, before moving north to New Braunfels. We would like to find a closer, maybe smaller, congregation, but I'm wide open, right now. I think I heard about Sunset a while back,but didn't write the name down, and so, Lance, you saved me a phone book search. I did look at the CBE site for information, and that's where I found about the Disciples of Christ church we visited on the 1st. (My husband literally pales at the single, quiet piano -I''m not sure he breathed during the whole service because of the organ, candles and robes - but, he can adapt, we'll see.)
(And, Patty and Lance, just as scrubs solve my dressing delemma at work, at least the robes and vestments would solve yours! Just think - no expensive adornment, no gender-specific clothing, and an identifiable uniforme, to boot. You could probably design them so there'd be no need for a tie or panty hose!)
We were visited by members of the church we visited yesterday. They left information, including a monthly calendar - all of the leaders, except the nursery and "children's church" teachers are men. I mentioned to the wife of the couple that I was looking for a church where women were Christians first, and she told me about the Women's meeting. Oh, well. Even some women don't get it, yet.
Larry and I agree that we need to look for the best fit (I'm still praying for a perfect fit). I think he may be more sure that we don't want to end up in a situation that's only half-way there.
I've been thinking about If I had the chance to talk to an elder who believed that men and women should be recognized as full members in the royal priesthood of our Savior, I'd say, "You're a leader. Lead!"
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/10/2002 12:34:24 AM
Patty,
Welcome back. You may have read that we have done the “clothing and gender” thing to death with regard to “modesty.” Your question deserves some attention as well.
I can say that I am a convert to the “what you wear matters” school. I went a long time insisting that what I wear is a trivial matter warranting little attention. Now, I just admit that, like it or not, it really does matter to most people. With apologies to the apostle: “To those who care about clothing I have become like one who cares about clothing.” I have to “dress the part” to be taken seriously as a minister by many.
My guess is that this is even trickier for women in ministry. Random story: One of my all time cherished memories is of Katie, 8 months pregnant, offering the ecumenical Thanksgiving service homily at St. Joseph’s Roman Catholic Church. I seriously doubt a woman had ever spoken in their sanctuary and, believe me, there was no getting around the fact that she was a woman. There is no point to the story, really, but it leads me to my suggestion that there is no sense trying to dress so as to help people forget that you are a woman.
“Feminine” clothing is, no doubt, a rather broad designation that could mean very different things to different people in different contexts. I don’t know about the pink sun dress, but I would suggest that, man or woman, a minister must be a student of their own context and should dress as if they expect to be taken seriously.
:::posted by Lance on 9/09/2002 09:54:58 PM
Beverly,
My husband and I recently finished the church search. Even though we knew there was an egalitarian CoC near where we were moving to (Brookline) we looked at a bunch, only considering it as one of the options. One thing that we found very helpful was to check the statement of faith that the vast majority of churches post on their website. This allowed us to eliminate the ones that we thought were out of sync with our beliefs. Although most churches don't have anything on their websites that says whether they are egalitarian or not, you can check their list of leaders, read articles they've posted, etc. to get an idea. We tried to keep the number of churches we visited down to a minimum since its very draining to go somewhere different every week (although interesting if you've never done it before). There was only one situation in which we were unsure of where women stood in the congregation after we had visited so my husband emailed the preacher. He said that they believed in full participation for women, but all of the women they had asked to be elders had declined. I think a lot of the women had come from conservative backgrounds and were still uncomfortable with stepping into the leadership roles.
:::posted by Indie on 9/09/2002 08:27:50 PM
I would NOT say that the gender issue is simmering below the surface at our congregation, but it keeps coming up in conversations at church (maybe that's because I'm part of those conversations - I hope it is more than that!) What I would say, is that I keep finding people who agree, but are not going to fight for it, and I think that eventually it will take a fight. Recently I was speaking with a well-known preacher who said that he agrees, but it's not something that he would fight for, and all I could say is, "that's because you're not a women - you're not on the other end of this issue." Since then, I treasure every time I hear a man speak out FOR women.
I may be faced with changing churches, too and the thought really upsets me. I've been moving all over the country / state / city for the last 22 years and I don't want to change churches again! I'm not sure there is a congregation within 30 miles that would be any better / different on these issues - well, maybe one (surface or real thing???). There is so much potential, but I'm afraid the opposition is too great, even if they are few, they are LOUD. There are several bright spots, we're studying Beth Moore's Breaking Free, the one Vicki mentioned a few days ago. Great Study, I highly recommend it. We also have a couple of Elders that are real treasures! One is the father of four daughters, all very strong Christians, and VERY capable leaders. HOWEVER - Sunday we lost our Involvement Minister, good man, one of those I trusted. This spring we lost our Pulpit / Senior Minister, also a great minister, leader, counselor. We are currently looking to replace both and add an Education Minister (one of the elders mentioned, in a public forum) that the Education Minister could be male or female - bright spot! (Send all applicants to INDY). We did have a woman as Children's Minister (part-time paid position) she did not leave the congregation; she is the wife of one of our Elders.
On the abuse issue - it is taught in every aspect of our culture that girls need someone to look out for them, boys can take care of themselves. I can hear those words (my Dad's) echoing to me from the past every time I wanted to do something that my brother had been allowed to do. We may not want to face it, but we are still the weaker sex in the eyes of the majority of the world. I have worked in male-dominated fields (I am a fleet maintenance manager) for the last several years and I see it daily! I lived it and am terrified of the [lack of] example I have been to my children. My 15, almost 16-year-old daughter thinks that, "the angriest person wins." The Church, as a whole, needs to un-bury there heads (necks, shoulders, arms, legs) and face these fact that abuse is happening daily, and it is evil, and the abusee (is that a word?) is not required to stay, nor are they required to stay quiet or alone for the rest of their lives. In the end it was my decision, no one elses, to stay in that situation for 13 years, and I am not sure that I could have made any other decision at that time. God saved me from him, more than once I'm sure.
I better stop - I feel a sermon coming on . . .
Thanks for listening to my rantings!
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 9/09/2002 08:18:00 PM
Beverly,
If San Antonio is within driving distance you might also take a look at Sunset Ridge Church of Christ. They are not egalitarian, but they are still probably in the top 1% in terms of women's participation. You can take a look at their web site: http://www.sunsetridgechurch.org/. Their class schedule indicates that they have women co-teaching classes. It's a little pathetic to have to get excited about that, but it is better than the status quo.
:::posted by Lance on 9/09/2002 08:14:03 PM
Beverly,
I don't get down to your area very often, but the first place I would be looking if I were within 30 miles of San Antonio (and I think New Braunfels is close to that-you can correct me if I'm wrong) would be Oak Hills CoC (where Max Lucado preaches). We have visited with them before they moved in the new building and found it to be a good worship experience. Linda and I drive almost 35 miles to find a congregation that we can feel somewhat comfortable with. It's a loving congregation but is what Joe Beam might describe as "searching" leaning toward "cautious". From comments I have heard recently from some of the women, the gender justice issue is simmering just below the surface, waiting for elders with a more open attitude. We already have several that, given the right situation, I think will be open to serious study.
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/09/2002 07:00:50 PM
Beverly, at the risk of sounding like a broken record -- check out the Christians for Biblical Equality website. (Find it at www.cbeinternational.org or link to it from the gal328.org site.) They help match individuals with churches that are truly committed to gender justice (not only the appearance thereof). Our congregation is listed there and they sometimes send requests my way from people who are shopping in our general vicinity. Their geography is not great -- Long Island is very "long" and therefore our congregation is too far for the majority of folks who find us in this way. But in other states it might work better, especially if you live in a populated area. Give them a try. Churches listed there will be evangelical, mostly, which is to say biblically conservative and with a strong commitment to the Bible's warrant for true gender justice. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/09/2002 06:43:20 PM
I got away for a couple of weeks and I can't belive how much I have to catch up on. I'm working my way through it.
A few comments right now while I have the time.
1. I really love being here and reading all you have to say. I don't often think I have much to add but I like listening in on the conversation.
2. My heart aches for those of you who have been confronted head on by leadership about gender justice and I also am in awe of you. I wonder if I should be doing more since I have only gotten into that situation once and that was with a minister from a congregation I didn't attend.
3. As a newlywed (married just over a year) who is striving for gender justice I love to hear of couples who have been more or less doing it for many, many years. My parents do it (although my mother is now horrified that I think it should extend to Sunday morning and tries to claim that they don't or that it is sin) and my husband's parents did to the best of his knowledge (his mother is deceased and his father is married to a rather traditional woman now so we really can't ask about it much). We're still learning how to do it and learning what our unconscious tendencies are. (like I assume the man will take out the trash) I will mow the lawn as much as I am physically able however.
4. The idea of giving up femininity to achieve gender justice was touched upon earlier and I want address it more. (and perhaps talked about more in posts I haven't gotten to yet). I too find that I must prove my worth through the manly things I do. I mow the lawn and fix the car. I am embarrassed to like girly things. As though it makes me weak minded. I tend to like "masculine" colors and hate pink and ruffles but sometimes... Would a female preacher in a pink sun dress get the respect that a man in Khakis and a polo shirt gets? Must she choose between respect and femininity? Must she look as masculine as possible (ie suit) to be respectable? That is true in the work place, is it/should it be true in our churches? At our church suits are rarely if ever worn. Ties are rare in fact even on the preacher. What might a female preacher wear here?
I have no idea if any of that even made any sense. I am just so thrilled to talk to people who I don't have to convince of anything. I have been retreating in my cocoon for the past few months. Enjoying how much more I know about church now that I have a husband and resenting it at the same time. I have been a member of this congregation for 5 years and I now am more in the loop as to what is happening than I have been in years. Now that I have a husband who is filled in, and sometimes passes it on. (For a long time he assumed I also got the e-mail updated he got. He was bewildered to discover that I don't.)
You have stoked the fire under me. I am considering a letter to the elders about my beliefs. Their is one elder who know what we belive and mostly supports it. I think it is time to come out of the closet though to the rest of them.
I'm going to quit rambling now.
In His Love,
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 9/09/2002 06:41:08 PM
Beverly - Be wary. I am of the opinion (like, who cares?) that MOST churches where women are more visible and vocal are only there because they have been given premission by male leadership to do those things. In my mind, that is not egalitarianism, but the APPEARANCE of egalitarianism. If you're looking, don't stop until you find the REAL THING! You just might have to be a church-planter to find it!
If you're up to a move, there is a great little church in Missoula, MT I highly recommend.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/09/2002 04:54:54 PM
Can any of you give advice on looking for a new church?
Larry talked to the elders yesterday, and they said that he is (or we are) right, even about us leaving. (I'm paraphrasing the summary I heard from Larry. I didn't go because I am not sure I can remain Christ-like while explaining in "real-time' that women should have a voice in the service of God. I waited 24 hours before I trusted myself to even write about it.)
I wonder whether going to the preacher with a list of questions (or a statement of my own "creed") - and then evaluating his reaction to my asking them at all as well as the answeres - is the way to go.
We visited an Independent Christian church yesterday where it appears that all the leaders are men, but the women spoke from the congregation (one even stood and faced the congregation, from the side of the auditorium) at the request for announcements, prayers and concerns. And there was a choir and piano, but no robes and no candles (as last week at the other church.). It was very like the services I grew up knowing. (But Larry says I should be wary that it was emphasized several times that they are a people of the "Book." Even if the Book is the NIV.)
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/09/2002 04:16:45 PM
Next weekend Anne Graham Lotz (Billy Graham's preaching daughter) is coming to Cleveland for a "Women's Revival." The article in the paper on Sunday said that there was a great deal of concern among the large non-denominational protestant churches in the area like Hudson Community Church that the revival would include men as well... since many of them did not believe that a woman should preach to men. Once the local organizers confirmed that it was for women only... then the local independent community churches pledged their financial support.
Well, this was eye opening to me...
jp
:::posted by Jeff on 9/09/2002 03:52:02 PM
Anybody out there going to the Christians for Biblical Equality marriage conference in Portland, OR, September 27-29? I’ve gotten the tapes from this conference before and they’re usually great.
The general session titles are “Love, Listening, and Forgiveness: Why Submission is a Two-Way Street”; “When ‘My Way’ Became ‘Our Way’: How Biblical Equality Changed Our Tune”; “After She Nailed His Pants to the Floor: Communication and Sex”; and “Freedom of Service: Serving and Empowering Others.” Wish I could be there.
I got this info from “Mutuality,” CBE’s quarterly magazine. If you’re not already enjoying the fruits of this encouraging organization, click over to www.cbeinternational.org. They have helped me back out of the C of C discussion enough to see that gender relations are important and complicated for God’s people more generally.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/09/2002 02:03:32 PM
Sorry Vic,
Can't speak up right now, wounds are feeling open, maybe later.
Shell
:::posted by Shelly on 9/09/2002 11:08:30 AM
"....witholding of opportunity and then accusing a lack of capacities."
If you really want to see somebody put some meat on these bones, try:
Woolf, Virginia. "A Room of One's Own"
:::posted by Lance on 9/09/2002 09:17:44 AM
Good Morning folks...
Concerning the brother who spoke in Nashville a few years back and got into hot water on the pathological marriage model that we have created within the churches of Christ...I did some research (read: appealed to friends with better memories), and was told that it was Gayle Napier that spoke at Lipscomb and at Jubilee in the early 1990's. I did a Google search and found several sites that quote his speeches - However - those sites are not at all in favor of what Gayle had to say and may be misquoting him. I will try to reach him via e-mail and see if he will join us here and share his insight. Does anyone know him personally?
peace,
jp
:::posted by Jeff on 9/09/2002 08:03:47 AM
David,
I'm not a theologian or even a wanna-be, but I like to read. This week I am reading Hildegard of Bingen by Sabina Flanagan. Hildegard's work, community life and the 11-12th century European history fascinate me. Flanagan addresses this classic tactic of oppression you site in your Niebuhr post about "witholding of opportunity and then accusing a lack of capacities." I have seen this at work when a woman has an idea for a program and the leaders, rather than say no, give her the green light of "support" while not allowing her access to the ways and means necessary to achieve congregational support. I expect that it happens in academia as well, when capable female minds introduce ideas which conflict with the higher authorities in our church schools. In Hildegard's time knowledge was not withheld from women as long as they submitted to prevalent male attitudes about the inferiority of the feminine -- So things haven't changed much in that respect in the Church of Christ except that women don't have to attend university in cognito and dress like a man -- This might have something to do with why we have so few letters from the women of that period. Did their writings fail the test or did the women just not have the heart to write against their conscience?
:::posted by Carmen on 9/08/2002 10:37:41 PM
Friends, I deleted a brief post from yesterday because it didn't seem to make sense until David he re-posted his. And now I actually have time to write. I've barely had time to keep up with the reading on here and do my other stuff! (multi-tasking isn't one of my gifts!)
Anybody think that we should have a forum theme song? I like "If I Had a Hammer", though there are times when "This Old Hammer Killed John Henry" might be appropriate too...:)
All the posts this week have been churning through my mind while I've been footing it around town, so I apologize if the following thoughts seem a little disjointed--you all really gave me a lot to think about. My training is in history, and it always compels me to step back sometimes and remember that we are not the only participants in this Story. Others came before us (the MLK references are a case in point); others will come after us. What we are called to do is our part. I have a little prayer from Oscar Romero hanging on my wall which ends with the line, "We are workers, not master builders, ministers not messiahs; We are prophets of a future that is not our own." (I'm into these building metaphors...perhaps I missed my true calling??)
This past April, after reading a recent book on modern politics that called for a more informed practice of democracy as the solution to the globalizing and tribalistic tendencies prevalent in politics today, I asked my students if they'd be willing to take it upon themselves to live in such way--a way that would require them to sacrifice some of their current privileges. Would they be willing to work for a possible future that they may not see, that they may not participate in? In biblical terms, I think this is the Moses question: are you willing to lead the people out of Egypt without the benefit of entering the promised land?
Is this not part of what the way of the cross consists in: "You will be hated by all for the sake of my name" (Mark 13:13). The work of liberation will *always* look like rebellion, arrogance, etc, to those it threatens. I don't believe there is a way to *make* others see; Jesus diagnosed their disease as that of Pharoah--"hardness of heart". But for those of us holding these little bity hammers, trying to do our part, sometimes isolated in space and time, one thing we have to do is to not be frightened by the mystifications--intellectual, emotional, whatever--that get thrown in our faces (and as many posts have so movingly told, the people on this forum are no strangers to such bitter experiences). We have to cultivate what Ched Myers calls "critical literacy", for ourselves and for those coming after us, and that work seems to me something that this site is designed to do and something that many folks here are doing on their own. And it must continue for the long haul.
One last thing, to David regarding Niebuhr. I think his work has much to say, however, check out John Milbank's critique in _The Word Made Strange_ (chapter "The Poverty of Niebuhrianism").
This hammering makes me hungry, so I must take a dinner break!
Blessings to all,
Chad
:::posted by Chad on 9/08/2002 08:09:29 PM
On 9/7/02 at 12:10p, Vicki wrote: "I never confronted him. I never told anyone. I've often asked myself, why?? Why did I put up with that behavior? . . . Why didn't I talk to someone? . . . I think it was just my pride. I didn't want anyone saying to me, 'I told you so.' Pride is a terrible thing . . . I don't feel good, and I don't feel bad. Just strange, you know, like I don't really understand it, but that's OK. Maybe somebody who reads it will."
Vicki, thanks for sharing. Wow! Well, I make no claims to understand it, and it is with some fear and trembling that I even step out here to offer something. (That's Katie's encouragement again.) One thing is clear to me--you did nothing to deserve that treatment. No one "deserves" it. You must not beat yourself up.
That's easy for me to say, right? So let me step out even further. I am a social worker, and for 16 years I have worked in the public social services. For the last three years I've been assigned to a specialized unit which investigates cases of reported child sexual abuse. I have sat through countless classes and training sessions in which your questions have been raised, including a recent post-grad program in the treatment of victims of domestic violence, child sexual abuse, and more general child abuse and neglect. We can always list the many probable reasons for not telling or talking, and they often occur in some combination. In the end, however, it often seems like we have to say that we just don't know.
Some of the saddest moments in my career have come at those times when the non-offending caretakers (most often mothers) are faced with the evidence that their children (most often females) have been abused and realize that their children do not, in fact, tell them everything. What a crushing blow!! Why don't the kids tell? When it comes to child sexual abuse, we can start with the fact that we're dealing with plain-old nasty and dirty stuff. Who wants to talk about that? Then there are the combinations of possible answers (power and control, threats and intimidation, grooming behaviors), and we can make good educated guesses at explaining. Pride perhaps. Most of the children, if asked, would answer in terms of fear. Another common explanation is that the children don't want to hurt their mothers. In the end, we often have to say that we just don't know. One thing is clear, however--the abuse is never deserved. (I recently heard a sister say in a class that it's easy for her to forgive the victim. Whoa! For what?)
Not sure I've been of any comfort. Here's to a great Lord's Day, which He has made.
:::posted by Fritz on 9/08/2002 06:33:33 AM
Vicki,
Please don't spend any time feeling guilty or regrets about the past. God did what you didn't realize was even needed!
(I will tell you a secret that I learned the hard way: never cut your hair when you're restless or just want a change. I think it's a good rule for life in general.)
David,
Spitzer ("Healing the Culture") contrasts the good and bad that can result from what appears to us as more noble ideas and works. His "Four Levels of Happiness" all have "crises" except the 4th level, where we recognize that only God can do what we desire and is the source of that desire as well. The pitfall of the 3rd level, where we begin to work for the common good or for the good of specific others or an institution or ideal is that we can take too much pride, or that the means and rewards of our good works become more important than the people we're supposedly helping, and also that we can find ourselves disappointed that we can't achieve Unconditional Love, Beauty, Justice, Truth, etc. The answer is to surrender our will and works to God, and turn it over to Him, allow Him to work through us toward His will, understanding that we can't see the big picture.
I'm going to take his advice and go to sleep, now, and let God work.
Beverly
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/08/2002 01:43:51 AM
Sisters and brothers,
(Sorry Julie and other folks. I pulled my earlier post because I had pasted it in, and at first it looked fine until "post and publish." By the time it hit the forum the format was terrible. So here it is again, in real time.)
During a private exchange with Katie yesterday I shared a tiny bit about my reading on the train this week. She suggested that I post.
I am no theologian, but thanks to the encouragement of Paul Casner, Lance, and a few others, I am somewhat of a "wannabe." Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971), the "public theologian," worked a great deal to empower oppressed classes to take social action on their own behalf. In the following excerpt from "Moral Man and Immoral Society: A Study in Ethics and Politics" (1932, NY: Charles Scribner's Sons, pp. 46-50), Niebuhr used the issue of gender inequality to illustrate the relationship between individual sin and collective/social sin. He wrote while teaching Christian Ethics and the Philosophy of Religion at Union Theological Seminary in New York, influenced as he was by WWI, the Social Gospel, the onset of the Depression, and his 13 years of preaching and pastoral work in the city of Detroit. The reader is cautioned to remember that these words were written in 1931 and published one year later, but they sound like some banged out in recent days on this forum. For your reflection, then, a piece of Reinhold Niebuhr:
"Even when the individual is prompted to give himself in devotion to a cause or a community (or to a church?--parentheses mine), the will-to-power remains. In the family for instance, it may express itself in part within the family circle and in part through the family. Devotion to the family does not exclude the possibility of an autocratic relationship toward it. The tyranny of the husband and father in the family has yielded only very slowly to the principle of mutuality. And it is significant that women have never been able to overcome the vestigial remnants of male autocracy in modern social life without using other than purely rational weapons against it. It was not until they could avail themselves of the weapon of economic power and independence that they were able to gain a complete victory. Nor could they remove various economic disabilities from which they suffered without first securing political power in the state. In the long agitation which preceded suffrage reform, the men significantly used the same arguments against their own women which privileged groups have always used in opposition to the extension of privilege. They insisted that women were not capable of exercising the rights to which they aspired, just as dominant classes have always tried to withhold the opportunity for the exercise of rational functions from underprivileged classes and then accused them of lacking capacities, which can be developed only by exercise.
"Even if perfect mutuality should be attained within the family circle, the family may still remain a means of self-aggrandizement. The solicitous father wants his wife and children to have all possible advantages. His greater solicitude for them than for others grows naturally out of the sympathy which intimate relations prompt. But it is also a projection of his own ego. Families may, in fact, be used to advertize a husband's and father's success and prosperity. Both the ascetics and the collectivists, who have regarded the family with a critical eye, are not quite as perverse as they seem from the viewpoint of conventional morality. The ascetics regarded family loyalty as a distraction from perfect devotion to God and the modern communists are inclined to view it as a peril to community loyalty; and there is a measure of truth in their conceptions. The truth is that every immediate loyalty is a potential danger to higher and more inclusive loyalties, and an opportunity for the expression of a sublimated egoism.
"The larger social groups above the family, communities, classes, races and nations (and churches? parentheses mine) all present men with the same two-fold opportunity for self-denial and self-aggrandizement; and both possibilities are usually exploited . . ." (Excerpt from Rasmussen, Larry, ed., 1988, "Reinhold Niebuhr: Theologian of Public Life," Minneapolis: Fortress Press, pp. 51-52.)
So, that's human nature, according to Niebuhr's Christian Realism. Or at least it seems to me that's what he's saying. Reactions or comments? Complete victory? Not capable of exercising rights to which they aspire? Withholding of opportunity, then accusing of lack of capacities? Any elaboration or correction from the theologians on the forum?
Brotherly,
:::posted by Fritz on 9/07/2002 10:02:05 PM
Wow Julie, that MLK quote is powerful. And applicable. Ironic how so much of the arguments in the gender justice arena rehash those of civil rights from forty years ago, and yet those making them don't see it. We humans can be so blind.
Interestingly, over the past two weeks, I have heard and seen more references to the woman caught in adultery in John 8 than probably in the past two decades. And the Spirit has been showing me that it's about more than not judging harshly, as I had always been taught. It's that no mere human has authority to control (or abuse) any other human, because our own sinfulness eliminates any such right. When we see ourselve in the light of God's holiness, concepts such as male dominance become ludicrous.
Thank you all of you for sharing, even the painful parts. Especially the painful parts. It's very convicting and motivating. I see that I need to be more than a "male moderate".
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/07/2002 09:50:42 PM
David deleted his own post. He was trying to work on the formatting which got messed up in the transfer from his word processor. I expect he will repost shortly.
:::posted by Lance on 9/07/2002 09:40:27 PM
What happened to David's post? I read it earlier and now have come back to post and it is not here. Weird.
I, too, have to finish preparing for teaching a class tomorrow but felt compelled to post also.
Katie, I went to the library today and checked out all of the MLK writings I could get my hands on and have started on the letter from Birmingham jail. It is speaking to me and I believe will speak to all of you. I will quote some to all of you. I won't comment on it because I don't have time but here it is:
"For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
"...I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal that you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Powerful words! Thank you Martin Luther King, Jr. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/07/2002 09:00:29 PM
Lance and Katie, Did you ever have a clue that this could be so powerful?! God has used this site in the last few weeks. Our stories are full of pain and anger and absurdity but yet with victory and hope and the peace of God underneath it all.
Vicki, I am so glad that you are out of a marriage that wasn't full of life and that you are now in an incredible relationship. God is so good! Yours is a story of victory. You didn't make it happen but God did and He wanted more from your life than where you were. Testimony of His love!
Carmen, I won't share my own story at this time...maybe after I know you all better. I would love to know where that girl is now. I wonder where her faith is. Where her journey has taken her. We can do so much damage in the name of God. My story involves a big name CoC school.
Lisa, I do believe that what I hear from you passive aggressive. I understand....been there. I know that at this moment I have sounded weary and angry but I don't think that those around me would describe me that way. I do believe that I am a peaceful warrior but sometimes I want out of that role. I want to be the angry warrior but I am afraid that those hurt would be the ones I least want to hurt. I am not very careful with my sword when angry. Thank you for continuing to participate. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/07/2002 05:15:18 PM
I've been reading the forum I think with a little more distance lately. I haven't posted in about 2 weeks I guess. I feel in such a different place emotionally I guess. I'm also guessing that many of you attend smaller c of c's than me by the content of your posts. Being part of a big church (between 800-1000) has both it's pro's and con's. One con is that change such as gender justice seems so undoable (is this even a word?) with so many people! The scope of diversity is so broad. The points of view so vast. We face so many issues and so many people daily that complicating it further seems overwhelming to me. And yet, we do make behavioral strides forward. I'm not seeing strides in attitude. If they are there, I'm missing them. I'm trying to do my part. My husband and I co-teach a Bible class. When discussing Genesis 1-3, we both emphasize the equality of male and female in the garden. We are focused on teaching what is in the text rather than against the status quo. Thus far, everything has been well received. Several elders and young male leaders are present in the class. We have had nothing but encouragement. But, we are subtle. The hammer is very velvet. If things remain the same for the next ten years, I may feel differently. I really don't know if I have the energy or personality it takes to use a sledge hammer. Actually, I could imagine a sneak attack at the foundation of flawed heirarchy.....(Yuck. Is that the passive aggressive c of c woman stuff?)
I feel so much compassion for you who have been laboring for so long. The anger and the weariness I hear in your words drains me to read sometimes. I struggle to imagine what it has been like to have that rolling around inside of you. I stay connected with your words because they are so real and out in the open. I also struggle with the thought: "If I stay with this gender justice idea, am I going to end up as angry and weary as others?" I think I may end up angry and weary simply because gender injustice exists. Therefore, is not fighting it even an option? I keep hearing Carroll Osburne's words in the book Women in the Church: Reclaiming the Ideal, "We must shoulder the obligation to participate intelligently in the resolution of issues concerning women today." I am obligated to participate. I must. I will. I am.
My prayer is that God will grant us all peace in our spirits as we struggle. Or as my yoga teacher would say.."A peaceful warrior."
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 9/07/2002 02:05:25 PM
Years ago, when my son was two years old, I saw that he was being indoctrinated by his Sunday School teacher in Male Spiritual Headship. Rather than try to teach her (his teacher) to breathe (thank you, Beverly) my husband and I decided to do everything we could to keep his soul from being suffocated in the church of Christ and still raise him in the church. We decided to try to protect him within the church by keeping him out of Bible classes and most of the programs the church offers.
Before my son came along, I taught 5th grade Bible class on Sundays and Wednesdays. I taught both classes so that I could protect their minds and souls and prepare them for the year ahead when they would be seperated into two different gender groups and prepared for baptism. I loved these children! I still keep in contact with some of them. We were a very close group. It was an egalitarian classroom, before I even knew what egalitarian meant. Everyone prayed, read scripture, and had a turn to prepare a lesson and teach the class; we even served communion as a class (yes, boys and girls together) on Sunday morning. We made the bread and the juice in the ancient methods and served them up ourselves out of "ancient" storage containers a wonderful potter in our church made for us. Then, one day, an elder barged into the class so angry that for a couple of moments I feared someone would be hurt or even killed. I couldn't even understand what he was saying, he was in such a spit-flying rage. He finally left without closing the door. Later, I found out that he was angry about the way I was conducting our class. I found out that meetings were being conducted about me, that things would be done to insure that classes would have more oversight, that curriculums would be chosen by the elders ...
Even though I have an unintentional egalitarian marraige and have a deep calling to egalitarianism (I was the first feminist to make the local paper in my town ... long story) I still have a way to go. I often project in my posts that girls and women are THE abused or THE victims in the systemic oppression of Male Spiritual Headship and nothing could be further from the truth, I, agree with what Beverly said, "I think boys and girls are abused when we teach them that women are subordinate to men. I've seen women allow their young sons boss them around. Can you imagine how scary that is? I've seen boys and girls when they realized that boys are given more desirable positions or responsibilities because they are boys. I've seen the boys become more and more controlling and closed off emotionally as they reach 10 or 12 years old, and the girls suddenly lose their self-confidence and even become depressed about the same age, when (I believe, I'm not completely sure about this) they, both boys and girls realize that they are being judged more for their appearanceand stereotypical-gender-role-fulfillment than for their minds and spirits."
I've seen that too, and I think we have protected our son from this by keeping him out of the grip of injustice in the church by giving him a spiritual education at home. At least once a month after church, we talk about this. The conversations are never forced, they naturally arise from the unnatural landscape of the church. For instance: my son is a singer (has sings professionally, even in opera) and he knows music. He commented that it is better for him to listen to the lady in the back row, because she has a better voice than the song leader. I explain that she is a music teacher and teaches choir and band in the local schools and sings professionally. Then we have a short discussion about the doctrine of Male Spiritual Headship and how we compensate for it by giving people jobs they are not gifted for and by ignoring the people who are gifted and even dishonoring the gifts God has graced them with.
He is fourteen now and I know his mind is uncorrupted, and he is ready for service. We are now attending a different Church of Christ that has a "praise team." Even though praise teams are not one of my preferences, it is a place where he can serve in tandem with women.
I have seen both boys and girls equally hurt and distressed by the corrupt system. I grew up with the children of the spitting, raging elder. They were beaten regularly and often were publically humiliated. The raging elder also had sons and one of them is currently serving time in prison for sexually molesting young boys. When his daughter, at 16, was pregnant out of wedlock, he pushed and shoved her as if she were a slave going to auction down the center aisle to the front of the auditorium to be shamed. She never repented. I have seen this shaming of pregnant girls happen when the boy in the audience was not made to come forward regardless of his contributions to the girl's pregnancy. The last one happend when my son was only four years old, we left the auditorium, but I listened over the intercom in the bathroom. The word "shame" was said over and over by the preacher. I expressed, in writing, the injustice I witnessed. I was told that I was the only one who felt this way, most parents of girls expressed enthusiasm and gratitude for the leadership seeing to it that this girl was made an example of. The girl was black, and the only black teen in a predominantly white congregation. When I drew attention to her color, they claimed I was accusing them of racism. I said her color means nothing to me, but I don't think they had considered that it might mean something to her. This girl also had a brother die in a very tragic cirumstance only months before this shaming event. I suggested that her pregnancy might be symptomatic of deeper issues than "just plain unrepentant sin and lust." I told them that they owed this girl. I told them that they owed her more than they can even imagine. And, I do think she has been given some scholarships for college from the church. I consulted with a psychologist friend and he told me that the circumstance I described was criminal assault and should have been reported to child protection services.
That's all for now ... battle stories are difficult to share. There is so much more detail to them than we have time for on this forum. But recalling these events does help me to understand how I am in the church but not of the church that my faith lives best outside these walls.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/07/2002 01:55:40 PM
I hope that my sister will speak up on the abuse issue.
As for myself, I am so blessed to have a husband whom I never fear, who never presumes to know what or how I think (he always says, “You’ll have to ask her”), who assumes I am as capable at life as he is, so much so that he believes this is a battle I can win without his help. We never tell each other what to do. We respect each other, yield to each other. I asked God to send me a godly man, and he did.
Contrast that to my first husband. Fundamental, independent Baptist. All-America, boy-next-door type. We’d been married 2 months when he had to tell me he’d contracted gonorrhea from a hooker. Begged for forgiveness, promised he’d never do it again. He continued to spend the next 7 years of our marriage sleeping with anyone he could. Friends, neighbors, customers, nothing seemed to be a barrier to him - age, race, gender. We’d been married about 2 years when he snapped under extreme stress from our financial pressures. We’d had no income for several months, except the meager income I made while working on a small chicken farm gathering and candling eggs. (Anyone remember when minimum wage was $1.75/hr.?) He decided I should no longer wear pants. He ripped them up. He broke all of my LP’s (‘60’s-70’s!!), because he didn’t think I should listen to them anymore. He put his hands around my throat, and for what seemed like eternity but was in reality only a few seconds, I thought he was going to kill me. Suddenly he let go, with terror on his face and ran out of the house. Brothers-in-law (baptist pastor and youth pastor) found him, talked with him about the problem, and brought him back. That kind of thing never happened again. One day about 5 years later he called and said he thought it would be best if he moved out. At the time, he was having an ongoing relationship with a wealthy woman. I think he saw her as his ticket out. Anyway, I said fine. I packed his bags. I would probably still be married to him today if he had not made that decision. I never confronted him. I never told anyone. I’ve often asked myself, why?? Why did I put up with that behavior? It wasn’t a behavior modeled for us at home. Why didn’t I talk to someone? It would sound better for me if I said something like I’d been taught that in a church somewhere. Or something that would make me look really noble, like I believed it was the right thing for me to stay with him and try to help him change his life. But that wouldn’t be the truth. I think it was just my pride. I didn’t want anyone saying to me, “I told you so.” Pride is a terrible thing. I had 2 miscarriages during our marriage. No children we had to share. God knew that I would need to totally sever my ties with him. Once he was gone, I had such peace in my life. Do I consider myself to have been abused? Yes, mentally and emotionally, maybe even spiritually, but oddly, not physically. That was an isolated incident, and out of character with him. The other was an illness, born out of who-knows-what, and he wouldn’t talk about it.
There is a decade of my life between these 2 men that I’ll not share right now. (Whew!)
What does that have to do with anything? I’m really not sure. It isn’t a story I share publicly. (That pride thing again.) I just felt like I was supposed to tell it to you all today. I don’t feel good, and I don’t feel bad. Just strange, you know, like I don’t really understand it, but that’s OK. Maybe somebody who reads it will.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/07/2002 12:10:18 PM
Julie,
Last month, I was praying for help in explaining our equal footing in Jesus to some men on another forum. As I finished the prayer, and just as the other forum came up on the monitor, I reached for a 3 day old fortune cookie on my desk. I'm not that crazy about fortune cookies, and wasn't hungry, anyway. But, I found my self reaching, opening the plastic and breaking the cookie to read the fortune: "Rome was not built in a day. Be patient."
Some of you may think I'm bonkers, and Larry advised me to be careful about telling this story as though something significant happened. But, I'll take my Spirit, where He decides to be, not confine Him.
Before you go to sleep, "Thy will be done." (and a prayer for a good night's sleep) is all you can do. Let God work while you sleep, and you'll be better for where ever or what ever, tomorrow. (God has asked harder things than to let go, and trust Him, in order to show our trust *in* Him.)
Vickie (edited name, here),
I think boys and girls are abused when we teach them that women are subordinate to men. I've seen women allow their young sons boss them around. Can you imagine how scary that is? I've seen boys and girls when they realized that boys are given more desirable positions or responsibilities because they are boys. I've seen the boys become more and more controlling and closed off emotionally as they reach 10 or 12 years old, and the girls suddenly lose their self-confidence and even become depressed about the same age, when (I believe, I'm not completely sure about this) they, both boys and girls realize that they are being judged more for their appearanceand stereotypical-gender-role-fulfillment than for their minds and spirits.
Then, there is the complex victim psychology that Carmen and others have been discussing, where, essentially everyone blames someone else for everything bad that happens and many believe that there is nothing they can do. I've seen some real magical thinking about relationships and outcomes of actions, in people who are intelligent and able to function in every sphere of their lives except in the most personal areas, such as family and love interests.
The worst thing is that humans have incredible imaginations and some are just mean. Any thing we can think of has been done or at least tried by someone. And it's amazing the cunning that can go into abuse! Both men and women, admittedly. But, the most common course of events is that a man has no self image except, "Well, at least I'm better than a woman or [insert race]. (Can you hear the Jewish prayer - instituted by rabbis and not God) "I thank God that I was not born a woman, a pagan, or a slave"?) Then, when they are at their lowest, or least sure, they turn on the "inferior." Who naturally deserved it and is really, though inferior, causing the behavior. Verbal abuse usually comes first, escalates, and too often becomes physical. The horrible cycle that comes from this is difficult for the two involved to break short of legal intervention or the death of one or the other. And it spreads to their children, where abuse is normal, reality, and expected.
Actually, I think the *usual* is more attitude than even verbal abuse. It's just assumed that girls will "give in" to boys, then women to men, and so on. Whether male or female, anyone who challenges the status quo is a trouble maker or misguided.
It's so irritating when they just think I'm misguided because I'm a "girl."
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/07/2002 12:07:24 AM
Atta girl! Glad you're still part of the reconstruction crew!
:::posted by Vicki on 9/06/2002 11:52:31 PM
Vicki, yes, I am weary but I don't think the answer is to leave. My husband is the youth minister and I don't think he will come with me. I have made a commitment to him and I am not willing to worship somewhere else without him. I believe that he understands where I am but this issue is not life or death for him. There has been positive movement in the past several months. One elder even came to me and apologized. He had just resigned (as they all have now) and told me he was sorry if he had ever hurt me or reprimanded me in a way that was harmful. He also said that my anger was good and had brought movement and change that needed to happen. He came to me in tears. His candidness surprised me and delighted me. The Lord works through our pain. He works through our anger. He works through our weariness. I know that. I am willing to stay in the battle. Most of the time I can stay above the battle and not get to caught up emotionally but every now and then I am caught off guard by a disappointment or rejection that pushes it all back to the forefront.
Vicki, thank you for being concerned and I do understand why you said what you did. But I have also been told those same things by those who would prefer not to be bothered by me or other women. I know that is not your motive. You have been an encouragement to me through this forum and I know that if we knew each other on a day to day basis we would be friends. Don't count me out yet. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/06/2002 11:37:54 PM
Julie - I don't just hear anger, I hear the weariness. Maybe it's time for you to let go.
I’ve been doing a study by Beth Moore, BREAKING FREE. You may have done the study or read the book. If so, this is a refresher. If not, I want to share this with you, as it spoke to me in a special way. Maybe there is a message in it for you. In very brief form (I’ll skip the first 2 points):
“#3) Discern the difference between rebuilding and preserving the ancient ruins
# 4) Accept God’s appointment as a reconstruction worker.
As we begin cooperating with God in the process of rebuilding, we might not be able to change the past, but we can change a few things more impressive:
• We can change how we look at it.
• We can decide how we’re going to build on it.
Let’s covenant to stop preserving and start rebuilding. The hammer is passed down into our hands.”
We can take up the hammer, or we can lay it down and move on. If you can’t do the battle anymore, Julie, it’s OK to move on. Don’t carry the anger so long that it makes you become as bitter as the opponents. The price will be too high. It really is OK to move on.
May Christ heal your broken heart as only He can.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/06/2002 11:13:09 PM
Thank you Katie, the Spirit spoke through your words tonight. I am weary and yes, sometimes I want to throw it all away and move on to another denomination. But I do believe that God has placed me here for a reason and that my pain and anger is for movement. Tears are flowing down my cheeks as I type. There are moments that the pain is so raw and I don't know how to move through it and then this little voice comes...sometimes it sounds like Ann, sometimes it sounds like Katie, sometimes Chad, but always I know that it is God speaking to me through you. I, too, have taken incredible solace from the civil rights movement. I even sent something to Lance that I had written many years ago that equated how I feel with the civil rights movement. There are some wonderful books out there about that movement...Daughters of Freedom(about the women in the civil rights movement), and a new novel...Lay that Trumpet in our Hands. Even the title of that book is so powerful. For awhile I was afraid to ask God to lay that trumpet in my hands. Now I am ready. I have 4 children and I want more than anything in this world that they have a deep abiding faith...that they plunge themselves with abandon into the waters of baptism and that they feel that awesome freedom that Christ offers...without the qualifiers that we have put on that freedom.
Katie, thanks again for responding to my pain. only by grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/06/2002 10:44:55 PM
A long time ago, l felt guilty for feeling angry and impatient. (Not suggesting that you feel guilty, Julie, because you don't say that, but guilt often travels along with that exhaustion that your own anger is costing you.) Anyway, a friend recommended Martin Luther King's "Letter From a Birmingham Jail." Try it -- in it, he blows away the consensus that he should be patient and wait for the change he is in jail for. He says he is tired of being polite and gives his reasons why.
Come to think of it, I often go to my MLK collection to remember what all this hoopla is about. His vision never waivered.
Just a feeble brainstorm to offer you some small comfort -- or because I can't think of what else to offer to salve your wounds. The pain that comes through this forum is overwhelming to me. I have been allowed to rest in a level place for years now, about eight, and your (y'all's) stories help me remember not to get too comfortable here. Hang in there, Julie, and all.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/06/2002 10:19:59 PM
I don't know how to begin tonight. I am angry and I don't really want to be. This whole gender equality thing is a roller coaster ride for me. I feel good one day about it and then the next something happens to make me angry again. I know that we have just talked about how it will take men to make the change but I resent that. I know that we also talked about how women are going to have rise up but how can we in a significant way when every time we come up with a way to do that we are told no. I am trying to be gentle and loving and Christ-like but sometimes I think that Christ would do something drastic instead of sitting back and waiting for that change. What gives men the right to tell us what we can and cannot do in Christ? Only Christ can set us free...not men. Christ has already set us free and men cannot accept that. We are such an intellectual movement and have ignored the emotion behind our relationship with Christ. There is a flood of emotion behind gender justice in the church of Christ and if they (the men) don't start letting it out a little at a time, the floodgates are going to break at some time and it is going to knock them over. I have so many times had ideas that would have helped with this but have been rejected every time because they want to first approach it intellectually. I am tired of the intellectual stuff. I understand where those verses fit and I understand their context. How many times are we going to go over them? How many different people do we need to come to the same conclusion? How many books need to be written? I am sorry. I feel that this is the only place I can vent right now. I am angry and hurt and only want acknowledgement that it is good to start letting out the emotion and let others see where I have been for the last 15 years.
Chad, I was hoping you were having another boring Friday night and would say something really great on This Old Theological House to make me sleep better tonight. You must be out having fun. I am glad if you are but I have missed you on the forum these last several days. Will you all pray for me tonight? Pray that I know the Jesus-way to react. I am not a patient person and that gets me in trouble some times. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/06/2002 09:44:58 PM
Beverly - Would you please clarify this statement for me?
"I do believe that the root of most abuse is found in the male first and always mentality that the church fosters."
What I hear is: the man is the first abuser (that is, he abuses the woman before the woman abuses the man, although she may abuse at a later time) and the church encourages that behavior. Please correct me if that's not right. I sure don't want to misinterpret you on this one!
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/06/2002 06:54:16 PM
Hey, Wiley, Larry and I were married on April Fools Day in 1974.
Procrastination and just plain (mutual) laziness is good for egalitarian marriages. Who ever cares more, is bothered more, or needs control of that issue more, does it at our house. And, we're both too lazy to go find a lawyer.
Seriously, being consciously or unconsciously relaxed about roles can sure make a difference.
I do think it's important for each of us to recognize that the world views certain actions and responsibilities as the 'role' of the man or the woman. That doesn't mean that we have to play into the expectations of the world, but that couples should acknowledge that some "roles" may cause trouble in public and other types will make things smoother and increase the credibility of the couple in whatever they want to accomplish.
For instance, I know that Larry occasionally is ribbed or even looked down on because his wife is a professional. Some people just look for ways that I might be 'lording it over" him. ("Who wears the pants in your family, anyway?) Because of this, I usually try to go out of my way to defer to him in these groups. (including church groups) I don't want to embarass him, I don't want some one to decide they had us pegged, and I don't want to frighten or anger anyone. Or waste my credibility where it doesn't matter..
Unfortunately, all too often ( since that is what he was raised to expect and of course, we all like it when things go our way and assume we are "right"), if I do it too well, he doesn't notice,. :)
He's getting better at noticing these moments - of being aware that they are there, anyway.
Now if I can just convince him that I should get to make all the decorating and home remodeliing decisions because everyone will assume I did it, anyway.....
Carmen, although I really do believe that "abuse" is too strong a word for most of us, I do believe that the root of most abuse is found in the male first and always mentality that the church fosters.
I am not a victim. Language is not a purposeful weapon in itself, despite the fact that it can be wielded that way. And we absorb expectations incorrectly from what we see as usual in our realities.
But, it's jarring to me to see articles written from a purposefully egalitarian viewpoint that consistently say, "She and He," "hers and his," "her and him." I feel - no, I know - that it's bad grammar or something (worse than all my parentheses and commas), even though I don't remember any school book saying so. This is not because of anyone's intentional molding of my world view or because I was harassed at 16 years old by a bunch of Baptist preachers when I was accidentally in the position to lead the youth meetings. That's just because that's the opposite of the way I have ***always** read and heard these phrases until recently.
Some of our assumptions are as natural to us as the air we breathe, and being forced to notice them is as difficult as trying to breathe normally when someone has called your attention to the mechanics of your respiration. Or laughing "naturally" when someone has commented (favorably or not).
I think this is the source of some resistance: who wants even most breaths or most laughs to be self revelations or, in the case of some, criticism, or even the least bit uncomfortable? And no one wants to be told that she or he breathes wrong. Especially, if as Mary says, you've never seen it done right.
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/06/2002 05:34:11 PM
Go with God, Jeff Pierpont. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/06/2002 03:42:34 PM
I received an e-mail from Mary Lou Hutson, who later gave me permission to post her musings here. So, without further adieu, he-e-e-re's Mary Lou:
I would post this to the forum but I'm at work and not rigged up with the link to that here.
I saw your post on how the women of West Islip have resisted your efforts to talk about egalitarian marriage and they have an egalitarian situation at church but traditional marriages at home.
I think that while in principle we more open-minded folk like the idea of egalitarian marriage, we haven't seen it modeled (much) and each married couple among us has more or less worked out their own "contract" and that is what works (or doesn't work but is at least familiar) for them, and we are nervous about changing all of that.
I would suggest that in your relatively small congregation, the women may be nervous about making it too personal and bringing up too much discussion about their own marriages. I don't know but I would question whether there is a queasiness factor there that is more personal than the overall topic.
For myself, I draw the line at mowing the lawn and killing bugs. I am not gonna mow the lawn myself (I will hire it done if Chris is going to be away or unable to do it for an extended period) and I only kill my own bugs when I am home alone. I will take responsibility for a salary, a share of the mortgage payment and maintaining the insurance, but I'm not gonna start with yard-mowin'.
I think that we have a fairly egalitarian marriage. We don't negotiate constantly, but from time to time we sit down and trade off who's doing what. When we lived in Salisbury, I had the commute so he was responsible for meals. As part of our deal to move to Charlotte, I volunteered to take on the meal planning and preparation. We each have a job, a car, our various other responsibilities. We have each stepped in at different times to take on different tasks as needed. We have never been able to share housecleaning very effectively, because his priority is "neat" and my priority is "clean," and those are not always the same thing. But on the big things, we try very hard. We have tried throughout our marriage to respect each other's careers, and that has been very difficult. We don't have a model to follow for equality in the career path--most of the folks we know who have two-job families, clearly treat one job as the primary job and the other as secondary. It is hard not to fall into that trap, especially since neither of our jobs is all that portable. But mostly, the Lord has provided a way for one of us to move locations when the other needed to.
Now, what I don't know is how you do it with children. I suspect that a lot of the resistance you get has to do with mothers feeling they would be giving up something of their special relationships with their children, if they had a more egalitarian marriage. I think we've all been conditioned from birth to think that the mother's role with the children is this wonderful, precious thing that makes her life complete, and I think you have a pretty traditional group of women there when it comes to dealing with the kids (don't you have a pretty high percentage of stay-at-home moms?)
Another factor that I see in myself is that I do have a little bit of resentment at the fact that I HAVE to work. Yet, I have a career and a responsible job that gives me a lot of satisfaction and a feeling of achievement and identity. This is probably generational and maybe younger women don't feel this as much, but I think each of us has a map of the world that we learned in childhood, and we can cross out "Rhodesia" and write in "Zimbabwe" over and over, but we are still going to see the original print shining through. In my family growing up, I was encouraged to make straight A's and I was told from the time I started kindergarten that I would be going to college, but the work thing was pretty much presented to me as optional. If I wanted to, I could. Well, that's just different from knowing that you will be working for oh, 40 years.
offered by Mary Lou Hutson, North Carolina
:::posted by Katie on 9/06/2002 03:32:40 PM
Katie,
I am completely convicted by your posting the afternoon. My eyes welled up with tears as God's Spirit through your words reminded me of how far I have yet to go. While we share the chores and work well together, too many times I am more interested in getting my way than in mutual submission and mutual respect. I copied your post to my wife and asked if we could talk more about it this weekend. God is working through you.
Jeff
:::posted by Jeff on 9/06/2002 03:08:29 PM
Carmen,
Having lived in Oceanside from 1988 - 1994, I know whereof you speak. San Diego County congregations do seem to be in a time warp, but not a consistent one. They are ahead in some ways, and behind in others.
I think the key to all these patterns of abuse and vicitimization is that paternalism, like slavery, is ultimately a fallen human relationship paradigm that only God can redeem. Humans have many different ways of coping with victimization, mostly destructive, but it takes repentence and change to overcome it, and that only through God's grace. But we have to be made to face our sins before we can repent (witness King David), and we humans sometimes struggle mightly to avoid facing our sins. Jesus said some demons can only be cast out through fasting and prayer; it ain't easy. And we're still dealing with the legacy of slavery a century and a half after the Emancipation Proclamation.
God can and does work mightly, and I believe (and pray) that this site will lead to great strides. Thanks Katie and Lance for being his instruments!
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/06/2002 02:42:58 PM
Jeff,
I'm not familiar with the lecture in Nashville. I live waaaaay down here on the coast of California a couple of miles from the border of Mexico -- the scenic view from my living room includes the Tiajuana Bullring -- so I'm pretty out of the loop about what happens in Nashville. Most of the ministers in San Diego were born and raised here and have no connections to the Bible Belt but tend to be a bit right of mainstream. By the time we get a "state of the church" message, it's about ten years old. It's like the church is in a time warp here -- and sometimes that can be a good thing -- we don't have a clue about who's been tarred and feathered and people don't walk out when Lucado is quoted. So, do you remember who the speaker was? are are you asking? I'd like to know since I fully agree.
Jeff, you said "there are many women who have not been abused, who use the present system of "exclusive male spiritual leadership" to their advantage. Any changes to that system are viewed as a threat to the power they currently possess. "
Jeff, Abuse scenarios vary, but It is very common for abused wives to beat their husbands. It is also common for husbands to use emotional abuse hoping she will hurt him so he can press charges -- and the other way around. Power struggles initiate a confusing cauldron of anger and violence. Sometimes a marital power struggle results in a woman being physically and emotionally abused and society takes pity for this "good victim." Her husband is put in jail, she is put in a Women's Center and given a chance at a new life. But sometimes the abused woman is too strong for our cultural tastes and she applies her strength, resiliance and ingenuity to survive, often she hits back or kills the guy and end up in jail. This response to abuse dubs her as the "bad victim" because she used the masculine weapon of spousal abuse against a man in order to defend herself even when her attempts to get outside help failed. When I worked in a literacy program I met a woman who was literally held captive in her home. With the help of her landlady we had to go to great lengths to find a way to study. The fear was if the husband found out he might kill her. This awakened me to systemic oppression. Every door closes to an abused woman until she is finally reduced to bloody pulp. Abusive husbands use the system tactically, they learned it from their own dads -- the politics of resistance is on their side. Many women, in order to survive, cooperate with their husbands against the law through systemic oppression. That is when you see a bruised and bloody wife telling a police officer that everything in her home is just fine, she just tripped over a cord and to please get out and mind your own business. She might even threaten the children with physical abuse to keep them quiet and rule them with an iron hand. This is the "bad victim" and we don't like her. She gravitates -- like a fly to flypaper -- to abusive men and transfers that abuse to her children. Why can't she be more like the "good victim"? we wonder. Why can't she fit into our construct of the abused woman? We want to dash in on a white horse and rescue women and find that they do not want to be rescued. The national news recently reported a case involving this dynamic in Utah where the wives of the polygomist were unconvinced that they were suffering oppression.
I think all women in the church of Christ are victims equally of the systemic oppression of Male Spiritual Headship. If the coping strategies of some women are different than mine, I can't judge that, I see a victim only. I know of one elder's wife who was horribly abused by her elder father. She's one of those iron-handed women we are discussing here. Her influence in the church -- pitiful and annoying as it is -- is the only dignity she has and she will protect it with her life regardless of peer influence. She is as much evidence of abuse in the "home" the church as the "good victim" woman who is willing to share her stories of abuse and move toward change.
On the upside, I agree that many women are ready to go into wider service and that change is coming. I think this change in younger women is due to education and wider roles for women in society. I just hope that the reconcilliation horse will catch up to the gender justice cart. Without context, the dynamics get confusing, as Katie indicated in her post.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/06/2002 02:00:41 PM
I read and studied Lance’s MAN AND WOMAN IN GENESIS about 6 months ago. It revolutionized my view of reconciliation. Many thanks, Lance!
We’ve made some comparisons between the gender battle and the race battle, and we’ve talked some about the women who choose/prefer to be subjugate. It occurred to me last night that when the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, there were many slaves who chose to remain with their slave owners. I suppose it is true for both: There is fear in the unknown and safety in the known. I believe it was education, observation and time that finally loosed them all.
And then there’s the question: Was it true freedom or the appearance of freedom?
The closing of the Sunday Morning Holy Room for Men is really only a handout - a step towards the appearance of freedom. But I'll take it until the real thing comes along - true freedom.
Living happily in my own egalitarian marriage,
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/06/2002 01:41:10 PM
Wiley, You are wonderful! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/06/2002 01:21:33 PM
Just thought I would get to comment first :>) Got beat by Julie!
:::posted by Wiley on 9/06/2002 01:15:03 PM
Katie,
since I posed the first question, I'll make the first comment:>)
I figured that was what you meant by egalitarian marriage. I had just never considered it quite that way. My wife and I have always just approached each other as equals. We married in 1974 and we went against the "common" view of a Christian marriage. Our view of a Christian marriage was that of mutual respect for each other's abilities, desires, interests, strong and weak points, wisdom, and feelings, while sharing the chores, bills, employment, child rearing, etc, not based on a male/female tratitional assignments but based on what we prefer to take on. We just never applied "egalitarian" to what our marriage is based on but just let our marriage flow with the current of equality and mutual respect. It's had some rocky points as all marriages do but we have now made it almost on 29 years. The rockiest times have been recently due in large part to 9/11 employment related problems (we are now locked on different shifts and only see each other many days a week for about 5 minutes a day). The interesting thing is that we never applied our private philosophy to our church life until my oldest daughter got into a tiff while in the 9th grade (I think!) with a nearby town local minister who told her at a retreat that she should not be an organizer of youth activities because she was female and that it was wrong for females to be leaders. That was just the opposit the way we raised our daughters.
Anyway, thanks for the answer, and I will check out the web site and the books. Guess it may be another link for my links page on my web site (http://www.clarksons.org). Got to go cook my wife lunch!
grace to you and peace. Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/06/2002 01:13:00 PM
Katie, I am so glad that you shared that with us. Thank you. I do think all this starts at home. Our children will have a different perspective in their church family when they have seen this in their nuclear family. Our marriage works in a similar way as yours and has been good for my husband and myself. Yes, sometimes it looks messier because no one is the boss...well, God is. But I am glad that we work through our "stuff" and on the other side are more whole than we were before. I am not going to say that it is easy. Marriage is hard. Life is hard. Jesus lightens the burden but it is still hard. We have been married for 19 years this December and I am glad that I have spent those years with my husband. I am glad that at a young age I chose to marry someone who was willing to grow and think and move beyond the norm. The greatest compliment he ever gave me was when he asked, "Do you know why I love you?". I was afraid to know but and he said," Because you make me think." Wow. That was powerful to me. I do know that everyone is not at that same place and many are struggling with who is in control. Big changes won't happen until the little details begin to change...including our language. I keep praying for that. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/06/2002 12:43:47 PM
Aww, come on, friends… I know you have considered that all these things we’re saying about women in ministry, women as servant-leaders, women as spiritual and practical equals with men are not ONLY about the hour between 11:00 and noon on Sunday mornings. (Maybe this inkling is a further clue to the fear-leading-to-anger that the spur-jangling men are feeling.)
Lance offers his collections of “myths” and “realities” concerning Genesis 1-3 (see the “articles” page on the site). Reinterpreting Genesis 1-3 is not only or even first about what we do in church. It is about the meta-relationship between Man and Woman as it boils down into any one relationship between any one of us and our spouse.
An egalitarian marriage is just like an egalitarian church, but smaller. The two people in it serve one another (and their kids, if they have them) in the ways that they have been gifted by God to serve. They think outside the boundaries of traditionally “masculine” and “feminine” tasks to be better partners to one another. They alter their vocational situations, if they can, to be equal contributors to the making of a household. They reject the culture-bound hierarchy of husband over wife for the scriptural ideal of mutual submission. They humble themselves to one another and honor each other’s expertise, talents, and strength.
A practical example from my own experience might help. For the first several years we were married, I did all the financial stuff (paying bills, reconciling our tiny little checking account) and Lance did almost all the cooking. I sort of liked working the numbers to make sure we didn’t bounce checks. He didn’t especially like cooking but found that it gave him a sense of accomplishment to nourish us both through graduate school.
After about eight years, we sold a house, made a little money, and had financial decisions to make that involved research – not my strength, but Lance’s forte. At the same time, we had a little baby, and a desire to provide physical nourishment for the family welled up in me. So we traded. Lance did the money, I did the cooking. Let me emphasize that I might not have been able to take up such a traditional role at the beginning of our marriage. Lance’s willingness to learn it and do it for all those years made it possible for me to take it up freely when the time was right.
Now our babies are not so little and the hormonal urge to nourish is fading for me. And our finances are back to normal with the help of a good accountant. So we are settling into a both-and thing regarding these two jobs. I cook some, and so does Lance. I pay bills when I have the time and he does it when he has the time. We have budget “summits” once in a while to make sure we stay on track.
When I go away for a couple of weeks this fall (a school commitment), Lance will stay home with the kids. He works part-time, as do I, so a little bit of childcare by some of our church friends will allow him to keep his work commitments. There is nothing I could do for our kids that he can’t or won’t do. (Well, okay, I breastfed them both and I’m better at putting our daughter’s hair in a ponytail.)
Some people will condescendingly comment that he such a “good daddy” for “helping out” or even ask him how the “babysitting” is going. Some are uncomfortable with my going ahead with my education while “I” have young children at home. But we are committed to live out what we believe with respect to gender justice, not only at church but at home.
It’s not easy, by a long-shot. Sometimes we both admit we would have less conflict if someone were in charge! (And it definitely should be me!) But God is blessing us as we grow in this relationship, learning each day how to submit to one another in love and trust.
There are lots of books on this subject. Check out the Christians for Biblical Equality catalog, which you can access on www.cbeinternational.org. I’ll list a few here, with the caveat that I haven’t read every word of every one of them.
“Heirs Together: Applying the Biblical Principle of Mutual Submission in Your Marriage” by Patricia Gundry.
“The Family: A Christian Perspective on the Contemporary Home” by Jack O. Balswick and Judith K. Balswick.
“Family at the Crossroads: Beyond Traditional and Modern Options” by Rodney Clapp.
“As For Me and My House: Crafting Your Marriage to Last” by Walter Wangerin, Jr.
If anyone has time to offer fuller reviews of these or other books on the topic of egalitarian marriage, I’m sure the site would love to share them.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/06/2002 11:20:12 AM
Greetings folks,
Carmen - I hear what you are saying - and I think we are in the same neck of the woods. The entire system of "exclusive male spiritual leadership" has certainly led to emotional and physical abuse in many households AND in many faiths. A popular church of Christ speaker gave a lecture or wrote an article on this subject a few years back in Nashville and nearly got tarred and feathered. Anyone remember who it was?
That said, there are many women who have not been abused, who use the present system of "exclusive male spiritual leadership" to their advantage. Any changes to that system are viewed as a threat to the power they currently possess.
Wiley - Something about stepping into the sanctuary (Auditorium) really takes it out of some women who in their professional life have no problem presenting at a meeting with 30 men present. It is the culture that they were raised in that so influences them. I think you are correct in your assessment that there is a generation of women who are not prepared to be "full participants" because it is so far out of their comfort zone. I believe there is a new generation that is on the rise that is not only prepared but ready to start now...We have to make some progress or we will lose them.
Katie - This sounds so intriguing. Do tell us more...
Julie - Katie's approach to preaching on divorce is becoming more the norm. That gives me hope.
In the final analysis, the issue for Jesus was not whether it was divorce or remarriage that caused adultery, nor even whether authorizations could be found for divorce; it was, rather, what creation reveals about God's desires and intentions for us as males and females.
It is here that we will be able to offer hopeful solutions to the multitude of problems that divorce still presents. Divorce is a horrible, painful, and destructive part of our culture. I believe there is nothing good to be said for it.
But there is a related matter that begs for attention: When faced with a marital disaster, what stance should the Church take, and what role should it play?
Despite our theoretical answers, I believe there are some terrible realities here. Historically, more focus has been placed on the horrors of divorce than to the failures of Church in responding to divorce. Stated bluntly: In many cases, Christian people have no idea what the real problems are in marital crisis, and they often damage the parties involved.
As a result, at crucial times, the voice of the church either becomes aggressive against the parties involved, or it simply goes dead. This must be addressed if the disenfranchised divorced folk who have walked away from our churches because of their treatment are ever going to be reclaimed.
Peace,
Jeff
:::posted by Jeff on 9/06/2002 08:09:50 AM
I'd love to hear Katie's description of egalitarian as it applies to marriage along with the booklist that won't fly in the unsinkable ladies bible class. I tend to avoid Christian books on marriage because they just don't seem to relate to my marriage style -- not that I know anything about marriage even after 30 years (25 legally) but we are bit unconventional too. Katie, your sermon sounds great and I fully agree with it, but like Julie I have to say that it is not typical for churches in our region either. If someone preached that abuse paragraph I'd pass out. We get the "stay together until it hurts and hurts and hurts some more and you will finally get out of it when you finally die because there is no marriage in heaven" sort of number -- and the guy who preached that one is divorced!
Vicki, I hope your son feels better soon. When you said you were going to the doctor yesterday, I assumed it was a routine kind of visit.
I love your contributions! And sorry ... I think the muddiness is my fault for using the word "abuse" as a dumping ground for spiritual, psychological and institutional abuse as well as spousal abuse. The first three are not always directed toward specific individuals and are perpetuated through habituation, but anger -- as we all have seen with spurs that jingle jangle jingle -- can be a major player.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/06/2002 03:08:42 AM
I’ve been nursing a sick child all day, my husband has left to hang out with Albert Lemmons for a few days (I'd be jealous, but I'm too tired), so I check in on my favorite site, and WOW! Have “all ya’ll” been busy today! In explaining this site to my son, he asked if I contribute anything. I smiled, and said, “I participate. I don’t know if I actually contribute anything.” He laughed, too. So, here’s my 50,000 words/two cents worth for the day:
KATIE - You are absolutely correct in how you view and counsel people in troubled marriages. No one knows better than ministers re:the State of the Marriage. They see everything imaginable under the sun! God bless those who hang in there with couples for weeks, months and even years, sometimes with success, sometimes not.
Question: Are women afraid of losing their femaleness (femininity) if they are equal? Might that be why they hang onto LADIES’ classes and LADIES’ days, instead of just being women? The women here also have a difficult time letting go of LADIES. (I’m surrounded by Southern Belles. Is that it? I’m a Yankee by birth.)
JULIE -I laughed out loud at your description of the men that “swagger when they walk … petrified of women who are outspoken or who hold theological opinions and knowledge to go with it. They shake in their boots when women become passionate enough … to stand up to them.” That is such an incredibly accurate description of one of my male leaders, literally wearing cowboy boots WITH spurs when he came after me. (Came after me is a little strong. He didn’t try to gouge me with spurs. He used words.) I realize now that he was afraid of me, and he couldn’t control me, and it came out as anger. But, I also recognize that he is the only one in our whole church who fits that description. Few have the kind of arrogance you describe. Moving on…
Maybe I’ve been in the wrong CoC’s, but in my 48 years (except for the few years when I hung out with the Baptist’s), I didn’t hear sermons proclaiming a message that spoke a “no matter what” theology of marriage. Remember that ALL CoC’s don’t preach the same message on ANY issue, i.e., classes, children’s homes, divorce, Lucado, colleges, cup/cups, worm/non-worm, etc. The issue of women is only one of many. That’s what makes this fellowship different/great. We can’t be stereotyped. That very difference is what I believe will allow some of us to go to that rock-solid change to egalitarianism. BTW, my husband is a minister in the CoC who has himself been divorced. Pulpits are almost as rare for him as for Katie!
Remember, too, that you are not your heritage. Your heritage is only the foundation for Whose you are. You take it from there. (My motto when depressed - which has been often lately: Allow myself no more than 10 minutes on the pity potty each day, then flush. Try it. Your days will feel lighter.)
TO OTHERS on the issue of abuse - I’ve not yet seen the abuse of husbands by wives addressed. It happens more often than we think. When taken into consideration in this discussion, it muddies the water when placing the blame of abuse. My opinion: Abuse is a result of anger. Anger is a result of sin. The sin is the issue. And that’s where Jesus comes in. (BTW, anger management classes are the devil-in-disguise. They teach you how to stuff your anger, not deal with it. The result - an explosion of violence.)
Oh yes, I got to use my little velvet hammer last night. The men will not be gathering in the Holy Room for Men on Sunday mornings. : )
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/06/2002 01:16:57 AM
I honestly was not saying that divorce is good and that it only occurs in instances of abuse...only that we have to be careful in how we approach it. Katie, I do agree with what you posted about keeping covenants,etc. but you are a woman and your approach is not the typical approach most of us have heard all our lives in the church of Christ. In fact, I have never heard a woman preach in the church of Christ. Maybe I'll have to come and visit.
I do believe that I live in an egalitarian marriage. I have also been told I am wrong in the way that we operate as a couple. I would love to hear your views on this. Thank you Wiley for asking Katie to expound.
My words were just spoken to say how much pain I believe there is in our church families that we are unaware of and have made it seem to those in pain that there is no place to turn for help. We put on our church faces and then become unapproachable because we appear too perfect. We need to be real with each other. That is what has been powerful here on this forum...honesty! grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/05/2002 11:30:38 PM
Katie,
You have really got my curiosity up with the egalitarian marriage comments. I have never considered what that is so I am really not sure what that entails. Would you mind giving a quick description -- if that's possible.
:::posted by Wiley on 9/05/2002 11:14:42 PM
On abuse and divorce -- I have preached about divorce as an epidemic in our society and how the epidemic belies how little we value covenant -- our own word and the word of other people, even those we love most -- and how this in turn belies our lack of trust in God's Word to us. I have urged Christians as a general principle to stay married, to honor their commitments, and testify to the world that promises can, by the power of the Spirit, be kept even when the keeping is difficult.
I'm pretty sure, too, that whenever I have spoken about divorce I have included a paragraph's worth of caveat for those who are in abusive relationships, urging them to value themselves and their children as highly as God does, and GET OUT. "Marriage was made for humans, not humans for marriage." That kind of thing. (I hear some of you saying that that paragraph's worth, addressed to sufferers of abuse rather than perpetrators, is probably not enough. Point taken.)
But I find that divorce most often (by far?) takes place for reasons that have nothing to do with physical abuse. Most divorces I have witnessed come about because a combination of factors like unrealistic expectations, broken communication, broken trust -- broken people! -- come together and boil over when external stressors like death of a child, financial problems, job stress, etc. become too hot. People who aren't prepared, haven't built a strong foundation together, find it's easier to ditch the promises for the illusion of starting over, alone or with someone else. So preaching about divorce addresses a whole cluster of Brokenness (or "sin" as it can also be called) that helps us see the Fix (or "salvation" as it can also be called) more clearly -- not only for our marriages, but for our lives.
That said, the most surprising thing I've discovered in my completely 100% egalitarian church family is a shockingly high number of women who stubbornly cling to a traditional marriage hierarchy--even women who serve as elders. How have they managed to split their theology/anthropology so neatly between church and home? How can they live with the weird inconsistency of it?
I have tried to introduce books about egalitarian marriage relationships to the women's study group (which these same women insist on calling "Ladies' Bible Class") but they won't have it. I have tried to disband the "Ladies' Bible Class" in favor of a gender-inclusive study group -- but they insist on running both concurrently. You're probably thinking that our church isn't as egalitarian as you had heard -- but good grief! we have five women elders to four men, and Lance and I partake equally down the line in ministerial privilege and responsibility. All I can say about the inconsistency between church practice and marital life is -- Go figure. And if you figure it out, post it on this forum.
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 9/05/2002 10:44:49 PM
I agree that there are women out there in many forms who will oppose equality. But I also feel there are lots of men in the church of Christ who truly believe that women are inferior creatures...emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, strength....you know them...you've met them. They tend to swagger when they walk and they are petrified of women who are outspoken or who hold theological opinions and knowledge to go with it. They shake in their boots when women become passionate enough about something to stand up to them. How do we bring them along? Can we?
I also agree that abuse...real physical abuse occurs in families in the church. We need to be aware and be vocal enough that those spouses and children feel there is a safe person to go to for help. God calls us to this. I also agree that we should be more angered by abuse than divorce and should speak from our pulpits about it. Have you ever heard anyone address this in a sermon? We have all heard the divorce sermon about how we should stay together no matter what the cost.
Okay...I have been on my soapbox long enough...anyone want to join me? grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/05/2002 10:02:03 PM
Beverly,
I agree that a major problem is the hoarding of knowledge. Closed meetings are a sign of institutional weakness. All of the best management resources (my husband just wrote a paper on this) say that closed meetings should only be done in a major crisis, but they are done routinely and without question in the church. That is because the hoarding of knowledge is a way to increase the power of individuals to control the group.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/05/2002 02:29:59 PM
Wiley,
Renegade women who control and suppress through the model of exclusive Male Spiritual Leadership are a serious issue. But it is also a classic sydrome for victims to protect and shield one's captors. I think these controlling women are the fallout of institutuonal abuse. Survival issues are invovled in perpetuating the corrupt system, that's why things get so messy. Survival issues are not only physical (what will become of me?), but in a religious context they extend to the eternal (what will happen to my soul?) and that is one powerful cocktail!
:::posted by Carmen on 9/05/2002 02:22:32 PM
One of the problems I have with the COC is the centralized leadership in the hands of a few (elders and whoever influences them behind the scenes), rather than open business meetings where the problems are discussed. The latter groups still have the back-biting and ambushes, but nothing - short of a unilateral "quit" by the preacher or the member(s) involved can be done or settled until the church votes. I don't think the elder-led men's meetings are anywhere near the same. Actually, I'm appalled this continues, even outside "worship" issues.
Perhaps the political and business structure could be changed? Sometimes, it sounds as though this effort might be more devisive that the women's issue. But, a good argument for "when they were all together" (as in Acts 1) could be made. Isn't this how elders are chosen, with women and teens involved?
Jeff (and all the rest of y'all who find yourself in positions to make changes), I'm not one to talk, since I wimped out on the head covering statement, and couldn't even disrupt the service enough to walk out when I realized the fund-raiser/preacher was known to be Baptist and then said as much in his talk. But... Larry has co-taught 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians in the last 2 years and always took the safest route, because he didn't want to offend or cause distress for anyone. He was giving himself a hard time the other day, because he wonders whether we would need to consider leaving if he had taught more equality. He feels that he wasted several opportunities.
When I counsel a patient, I talk about the rule of 3's (no idea where 3 came from, but it seems to work in my life and my patient's). When faced with delemmas (when you know anything you do will hurt, or at least be *hard*), try to focus on what action will lead to the best (result, happiness, love, health) in 3 minutes,3 days, 3 months, 3 years? Sort of a fancy "count to 10." Or a secular "What would Jesus do?"
I'm still convinced that it's easier to rip the bandage off rather than pry it off a piece at a time. But, I'm not the best at doing that sort of thing, so I will get a nurse to do it if I can.
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/05/2002 01:55:12 PM
I was wondering when we would be exploring this particular idea. I concluded a while back that there is a strong opposition among women (if not stronger than the men's opposition) to women being involved in worship, adult teaching, and leadership. While I have seen women who are able to control a whole congregation through the men (my wife and I left a congregation of 140 members about 1.5 years ago that was under the control of one woman who managed to bring down an eldership to keep control) and I can't disagree with the control issue, I personally think this has more to do with the idea that if some women are allowed to lead prayer, be deacons, etc, then many women who are hesitant to do any of these things and have not been spiritually and mentally equipped for these areas are worried that they will be "put on the spot" or they will be badgered or forced into things that they do not wish to do by men who are insensitive to this lack of training or desire. I think they already see men who also fall into this category who are "put on the spot" all too often when they shouldn't have been and that reinforces their beliefs. It amounts to a comfort zone and protective barrier issue backed up by bad theology and practices. I have been told on several occasions by women I felt comfortable discussing the women's issues with that they have no desire to participate in worship other than to sit on the pew and follow along and are therefore opposed to women being able to participate in the worship. The "men only" or "let the men do it" view has become a crutch to use to keep a “low profile” while denying other women the opportunity to participate who are very capable in many areas from leading, teaching, and sharing which could upset the applecart. Of course, that also denies the opportunity for men to share and grow in the spirituality and knowledge these women have and are willing and able to share given the opportunity. Most of our older women have not been raised or “trained” in participating in the worship except as a passive participant. My wife is like that. Unfortunately, the same is true for many of our younger women. While my wife is now supportive (the previous non-supportive position is a story all to itself!) of women being allowed full participation (thanks mostly due to my oldest daughter obtaining a Master’s degree in Christian Education from ACU, going into children’s ministry, and my wife seeing some of the resistance and lack of support that our daughter ran into), she will never be a person who will get up in front of the church or a small mixed group in any form of participation. She was raised very conservative, traditional, 1960’s CoC with women remaining absolutely silent in the worship except for singing (couldn't even say “amen” to a prayer, or something said by the minister out loud - only men could do that). She is a good children’s teacher but she still feels very intimidated and uncomfortable being in front of men or speaking out around men in a church or small group setting. However, she has taught training classes in the business world to men much higher in the company standing that she will ever be and was not intimidated in the least!
That, IMO, is where possibly the major problem lies.
:::posted by Wiley on 9/05/2002 01:20:21 PM
You know Jeff, I agree. But I have known so many elders and preachers wives and daughters who have suffered physical abuse that I just don't have the heart to hunt the wounded. Beverly might give us more insight here, but my reading shows that passive-agressives as you say are "trained up" in abuse. Also I think if we keep the sight focused on the source of the abuse which is exclusive male spiritual leadership rather than the scattering prey, the hunt will be more rewarding.
I have often wished that our church magazines would run more articles on abusive relationships. But even our marriage seminars perpetuate abuse with "stay together at all costs" messages and promoting a "God hates divorce" over and above a "God hates abuse" message. Some of them teach anger management and that is good, but they also teach Male Spiritual Leadership which produces anger ... ! Mixed Messages Seminar would be a better name for most of these lectures.
Maybe what the church needs is a new marriage seminar that models egalitarianism...? Marriage and marriage seminars are very popular these days.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/05/2002 12:25:58 PM
Lance's dog will hunt! (He's on the right track!) The church of Christ has trained up an entire generation of women to be passive-agressives with regard to leadership.
I can site numerous examples of "Leadership Meetings" where I was sure a matter had been discussed, settled and plan of action set in place. Only to have one of the "Leaders" call me the next day and say, "I got to thinking some more about this and I don't think this is the direction we want to go." READ - "I got home and my wife (who is a preachers daughter) changed my mind."
There is a whole generation of women who don't want change because it will upset the way that things have always been done. And they have had lots of input in the way that things have been done. You get everybody on equal footing and they would lose their control and influence.
My guess is though that if you were able to get buy in from one of those women in each congregation... the process would happen a lot faster.
So how do you get buy in?
:::posted by Jeff on 9/05/2002 11:13:40 AM
Friends, on the subject of women vs. women in church and religious life, I read a great novel last year by Gail Godwin. It is titled Evensong. I think you might like it.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/05/2002 12:09:59 AM
Lance,
I fully agree that the grimy underbelly of the whole, ugly beast is the fact that more women don't "get it." I'm sure that all here understand that some women are only doing what they feel they must in holding alliegence to the corrupt system of inherent priviledge. They are victims too -- maybe not "like us" but only by the grace of God -- and are to be loved, pitied and handled with care. This is the area I feel most needed, have most access, and have been able to break (if only momentarily) through ice.
Tom, God bless you and keep you! I will be praying for you every step of the way. You will have more influence than the shared pain of a hundred women! I think you need to know how rare it is for a man in the church to respond as you have. Until now, I have been skeptical of the power or value of disclosed pain. I hope it becomes common for men and women to listen to stories like Ann's and Julie's, Vicki's and Beverly's and not accuse them of being oversensitive, sensational, suffering from a mental problem ... sad childhood ... bad marriage ... I withhold my horror stories because I have seen no good come from the telling -- in fact they have been used against me and my family so I have sworn off sharing for now. If my approach seems hyper-logical and distant, it is a deliberate attempt to keep the topic as universal as possible. And yes, it is very difficult to do that.
I hope I am being an encouragement to all. That is my intention. I think that looking deeply into the sociological, psycological, and theological issues can help souls gain direction. I think I can understand the pressure these church leaders are under. Trying to understand where they are gives me perspective in their struggle to maintain the illusion of "balance." I don't have to sympathise to be compassionate. Illusions can be quite comforting to humans in tight spots and humans can be quite devastated when their illusions are shattered and they wake up to see they have been living in a closet. Also if I manage to maintain compassion as I work for change I will be a better person. As an actor I have learned to see the good in every character, even the villians. In fact, I have to love the villians I play, so that I don't judge their motives. I let the audience do that work -- it is my gift to them. The more complicated my villian is the more the audience struggles emotionally with her because the more they will see themselves in her and maybe even grieve for her a bit at her downfall. If the audience has compassion for my villian, I have done my work. Incorporating this mental discipline (and yes, I believe love is an intellectual exercise) into my feminist studies has been good soulwork that I find missing in most of my sources.
Tom," what can I do?" is the question I think all of us are asking here. For women, it is an especially desperate question since our access is limited. I think that is why this website is such a godsend for us. For men, the question is more overwhelming ... it is more, "Where do I start?" That is what I think I am hearing from you. Just stay tuned, God will show you a place.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/04/2002 11:56:29 PM
I have just come off a 12 hour shift and have to go back in the morning but I had to stop and read what had been said today. You have filled my heart. I am having trouble typing because of the emotion. I have never felt so surrounded by peace about being a woman in the church of Christ. Thank you Jesus for providing us with the comfort of each other. I have felt like Ann and I were walking side by side for so long and wanting other true companions to join us. You have joined us and I didn't know how incredibly joyful it would feel. Tom, your words were from the Spirit and I also encourage you to do whatever that Spirit leads you to do. Thank you for not wanting to oppress. That in itself is awesome!
I wish that the women's bathroom walls in all the churches of Christ could talk. What amazing stories they would tell! It is becoming a recurring theme when we tell our stories.
Lance, you are right that it is the women who will oppose us and do it in the strongest manner. I have already felt that and they are the first to label us with negative, nasty names. It hurts that it is women that do that to us. It might be easier to take if it were men. We expect them not to "get it". That is why when you do we are overwhelmed. Thank you Lance, Tom, Wiley, Chad and Jeff. Let's keep talking. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/04/2002 09:19:38 PM
Tom - What an awesome responsibility! My heart aches for and appreciates your struggle. Do whatever it is you feel God wants you to do. Have peace with your decision. But if you walk away from the responsibility under a conviction, PLEASE don’t go silently! I don’t mean kicking and screaming, but speaking with boldness and confidence. What a powerful statement you could make on behalf of justice! Know that we are all praying for you.
Lance - You are SO on target about women themselves being a negative force. A silent, and powerful, negative force! Silent, because they do their work behind closed doors, not having the boldness to face the accused. Powerful, because they manipulate men with “authority” to do their dirty work. I’m not so convinced that it is because they believe they should be kept in their place so much as it is fear of losing that silent and powerful means of getting their way. Why should they give up that power if it’s working for them? Obviously, it is.
I’ll go hang out with the oppressed and the oppressors for a while tonight. :) (My little hammer is in my pocket, just in case the moment presents itself!)
-v.
:::posted by Vicki on 9/04/2002 06:22:06 PM
Wow, you blink and there are another dozen messages! I last posted when Lance just started the blog, and have since been feasting on the great posts.
I believe Lance is right on the issue of men vs. women. I also think it is true that those "in power" have a special responsibility to act. Thus Lincoln could issue the Emancipation Proclamation where Grandma Moses could not. But Grandma Moses and others had to be there, too, or the proclamation would have been irrelevant. So men and women must both speak up on gender justice.
Which leads to a struggle I am having. I have the responsibility for scheduling "leaders" in worship in our congregation. While I have long disagreed with the male-only idea of worship leading, I have also "long gone along to get along", with the hope that I could have an effect on change in other ways without causing a disruption. But now, thanks to the hurt expressed by Julie, Anne, Vicki and others, I'm not sure I should continue in that. My heart aches with yours, sisters, when I read about your struggles. I don't want to contribute in anyway to the ungodly oppression of my sisters. Please share with me your thoughts, but mostly pray for me in this as I pray for you and your congregations.
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 9/04/2002 05:33:23 PM
Thank you all for your encouragement, again. The meat is on the menu, today, isn't it?
I'm afraid the pain is more Larry's than mine, if we leave. (I've already had the experience of deciding that the church that I grew up in is not the only church - the "Church" consists of all of us who believe that Jesus is the Saviour.)
I'm also afraid that I keep thinking of ways to compromise. At first, I was adamant that the least that would keep me in this church is a class led by me and some man. Now, I say any class, and I'm even thinking about offering to work with another woman in the Wednesday night "Ladies Class." Although, I wonder whether that is just the group that will get upset the most, as Lance has pointed out.
I wonder how conceited I am, but.... I am certain that the National Advisory Committee is my one chance to speak up for the pro-life and pro-family cause that I feel is my real calling in life. I am actually afraid that I will "have" to "admit" that I go to the COC, which won't even let a woman pray in public, if there is a man present. Any good I might have been able to do would be lost in the obvious conflict and lack of logic.
(Again, conceited, but, I wonder whether the fact that people llike me are "silent" and continue to be present, has let others justify the status quo?)
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/04/2002 05:30:43 PM
I’d like to offer some thoughts on the role of men vs. the role of women in speaking out about the “role of women.” (say that 10 times fast)
Weird fact: Although we may all agree that the issue is rightly construed as male privilege and female oppression, it is simply not true that women on the whole support change and men on the whole advocate the status quo. This is the dirty little secret of the gender justice movement. The problem is not just that so many men believe women must be kept in their place. The problem is that so many women believe that women must be kept in their place. Herein lies the mystery of the threatened beneficiary contemplating the dangers of freedom—longing for the fleshpots of Egypt and all that.
If only it were true that the matter were as simple as women vs. men, we would have justice soon in many of our churches. Although the formal power structure of the typical church is patriarchal, that is usually only half the power picture—maybe not even the most important half. When Vicki goes to address the formal power structure it is obviously going to be a room full of men sitting around and finally handing down a (negative) verdict. But it would be a mistake to imagine that the power dynamics in a church end there. My guess is that if the majority of the women in a church wanted change, the church could in no way continue without hearing and heeding their pain. So I resonate to Mr. Rose’s point about the responsibility of women to “rise up.”
It is essential that the women who “get it” be encouraged to name what is happening to them. They may and probably must be angry and hurt as they tell it. It is a mistake to ask them to try not to be so hurt. Indeed, I am convinced that it is essential that the pain of the status quo be voiced clearly and loudly. Believe me, advocates of the status quo on gender are not timid in voicing their fears about the pain of change. We must be just as bold in voicing the real and present pain of the status quo.
That said, it is probably still true that the shortest road to change is for men to step up and speak out. The reason is that when women are forced to be the most vocal advocates for change, the result is a huge tactical advantage for the champions of the status quo. They are able to effortlessly paint outspoken women as self-promoting, power hungry, and (the real zinger) un-Christ-like. Thankfully, “bitch” is not in the spoken vocabulary of most church-going folk, but it exists nonetheless as an unspoken category for (mis)understanding angry, hurting women and dismissing their voices without seriously addressing any of the substantive arguments they present. Catch 22: you must have respect to get justice, but you can’t have any respect until you get some justice.
When a few women name their experience and voice their pain, a few men will start to “get it” and add the credibility of their own voices. Slowly but surely an alternative vision of the future grows. Don’t dismiss the power of such a vision. When Moses returned from the wilderness of Midian he had nothing more or less than a God-inspired vision of an alternative future and the promise of God’s presence for the journey. We have the same things going for us.
:::posted by Lance on 9/04/2002 04:13:26 PM
Welcome, Jeff! We love it when men come to this site. Your comments always give us a different perspective than our own. May you, also, find a different perspective.
Carmen - I'll be spending a few hours in the dr. office today, so I'm printing out your comments to take with me and think through. At a quick read, I find "Oppressors feel victimised by those they oppress," to be true in my observation, but I don't fully understand the "whys". Maybe a deeper read will bring me full circle.
-v.
:::posted by Vicki on 9/04/2002 02:04:34 PM
Greetings folks,
My name is Jeff Pierpont. By way of introduction, I am a fourth generation member of the church of Christ. My family's long history in the church has seen untold number of changes for the good. I can remember back in the early 80's while Brookline and Bering Drive had this thing worked out - it wasn’t even a blip on the radar of most other congregations. And yet - nearly every week now - I hear of yet another congregation giving it careful study and consideration. The time is at hand. Do not grow weary - lean upon the Lord and do what you can, where you can. God continues to work in the hearts of women and men who seek him.
I recently preached a sermon where I pointed out that the only difference between vacuuming the sanctuary and passing the Lord's Supper was that passing the Lord's Supper was more dangerous.
Let me explain: Someone observes me doing things in the assembly and they encourage me and before you know it I grow in self-confidence, as I get better at doing tasks. But the more I grow in confidence in myself the less dependant upon God I become.
Soon I am able to read Scripture without stumbling over the names and pass the bread without spilling the contents on the floor and I am feeling pretty good about myself. And this starts me down a path that leads to confidence in self, instead of, confidence in God. And because I get better at doing tasks people assume that there must be spiritual things going on in my life, when in fact, there may not be anything spiritual going on at all.
I believe that all acts of service should be open to everyone - but I also think we should all be aware of the dangers that are inherent in some of those acts.
We can help avoid that trap by talking more about what GOD IS DOING through me and through you and through our congregations. That way we put the focus where it belongs - on God.
Don't grow weary!
Jeff
:::posted by Jeff on 9/04/2002 01:42:03 PM
Vicki,
Emacipation is an ongoing process with many levels. In black history in this country, freedom from slavery did not come entirely from within (England and other countries -- peers and mentors -- passed moral judgement on the US) Even though we honor them today the african-american activists and speakers were most successful in enlightening other african-americans but their reach to whites was limited. And the actual bloodbath was not -- at least on the surface -- about african-americans, it was about sececession ... about power. And even though they were technically "free," african-americans were still horribly oppressed in the North.The civil rights movement continued the process of emancipation by putting some heart and mind into it. There was also a balance of powers in the civil rights movement that gave emancipation (I hate to say it) credibility. And the struggle continues -- as I said -- on many levels.
The beauty of inherent priviledge as a power device is its insistance that it has no power other than what is given from Onhigh. It is victimised from Above with the work of entitlement. To challenge this system from the position of the unpriviledged is to victimise it from beneath as well. Only when those who are entitled to the claim of inherent priviledge refuse to participate will change come. But if history repeats itself -- and it usually does -- gender-justice in the church of Christ is only in the beginning of the enlightenment stage where the peers who have disentitled themselves must apply moral pressure to those who are still hold onto entitlement. But my observation is that some who feel they have "arrived" in gender-justice have really only just begun ( when England claimed they had disentitled themselves to enslave africans, they underestimated the cost and consequently did not go out of their way to enforce slavetrade laws and reaped the economic benefits of the American slave trade.) Unburdening from of the moral baggage of entitlement is a pretty satisfiying feeling of accomplishment, but applying that new moral perspective is another large investment of energy that usually has to wait and often backslides while the air clears from the original skirmish.
What can we do? First, I think we need to enlighten our children and our bible students about gender-justice. If we teach our children through their own experience as children, we will help them to identify moral injustices directed toward them and by them. We need to stop teaching our children that power rules and that someone has to be oppressed for society to be at peace. We need to teach them that Christ unburdened us of rulership.That rulership makes all of us victims and is contrary to the gospel of Christ.
This morning my son was reading Julie's post over my shoulder. He said it reminded him of a time when he was seven years-old and I had taken him and his seven-year old buddy to a concert (advertised as "free" in a local parenting magazine) and we were told to leave by the stage manager because the two musicians (both women) would not come out onto the stage to perform while we were there. He said bluntly, "They do not perform for children." Now, these boys are both musicians, homeschooled, polite and were exemplary in their behavior while the college students around us yelled across the auditiorium to each other and ate noisy snack foods. The problem was that they were children and the professor ... yes professor! was exercising her privileged status over them. I refused to leave. I politely told the stage manager to go back and tell the musicians that we will stay and enjoy the concert and we knew how to behave during a performance. He began to sweat. The concert hall was full and we were sitting in the front row. (We had attended these concerts before and always sat in the front because the college students are so distracting) He came out again and told us that the two women musicians would stand their ground until we left. "Because she will not perform for my children?" I said. "Yes." he said. The audience began to get quiet and direct their attention toward us. The boys began to sob. I told the stage manager that since the boys were now in no condition to view a concert we would leave. I led the boys outside and they were so happy not to be under that kind of pressure they began to jump and play and seemed to forget the whole mess. Meanwhile I was on the cell sicking my husband on them who at the time was an alumni of the university and highly influential in the local arts scene. Within hours the child-hating professor called our home and offered her apologies. "I didn't know who your children were." She said. "Did it matter?" I asked. "Well. No. I guess not." she quietly replied. She related, as I expected she would, bad experiences with very rude and disruptive children. I began to realise that this woman felt victimised by children. She invited us to another concert. Later, my son forgave her on her voice mail.
Oppressors feel victimised by those they oppress. This is very confusing and exasperating for women seeking change in the church because then we are percieved as the oppressors. The sense of oppression and victimisation of the entitled -- the priviledged -- is a crippling dynamic to enlightenment which ideally comes before the reliquishment of entitlement which preceeds emancipation and then justice and finally reconcilliation. I'd like to hear more from all of you about this. I think it is most crucial.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/04/2002 01:28:32 PM
Dear CoC (Cohorts of Correction),
Carmen said that it was up to the men. She called to mind something I’d read that I’ll pass on to all of you for thought.
Floyd E. Rose has a written small book called AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME. (I believe there is a link on this site, as well as one of his articles.) He offers this: “ When the women in the Church of Christ grow weary of their inferior status, they will rise up and change it. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. noted during his struggle against racial segregation in public transportation and public accommodations in the 1960’s, “the oppressor never voluntarily gives up power. The oppressed must strike the first blow” –– so it is with women. And once they make up their minds, it will only be a matter of time. After all, male privilege is based on the man’s ability to keep women in “their place”.”
In the front of my book, he wrote this message: “Dear Vicki, When a person’s courage catches up with their knowledge, they will act. They must.” A message from God to me, via Floyd Rose!
For me, it’s not a matter of whether or not to act, but how, when, where? I don’t want to make it worse, I want to make it better.
My feeble journey thus far: I read D’Esta Love’s article “Why Am I Afraid?” (from this site) to my whole church at the invitation the Sunday after Easter. No one walked out. It raised a lot of questions, brought me a lot of support, and eventually got me a meeting with “the guys”. Shortly after this we began implementing a team ministries approach that I submitted to the leadership (2 years ago - they’re slow) that eliminates the need for deacons and opens the door for women. In the meantime, I directed a one day VBS program, and I led the next day Sunday a.m. service through our children. I talked some, but mostly led the children in singing. I stood on the floor, close to all of my kids. The church was invited to sing with us. They did. The regular song leader led 2 songs that day. I had the chairs (stackable) arranged so that the children were in the middle with their families, and everyone else sat on the sides where they could see the children, and they would be the center of attention. Everyone seemed to enjoy the day and not be rattled by “the woman up front”. (I was probably more rattled than anyone.) Amazingly, no one walked out. Then came THE MEETING with the guys. I tried logic and calm requesting a church-wide study, but received anger and accusations. “Obsessed” and “divisive” were their two favorite words. I was warned to keep silent or my husband would lose his job. I am. Before they were finished with me, I locked myself in the restroom and waited an hour for them to leave. My whole face was swollen from crying. I show up, and I practice with the Praise Team. But I am silent. I truly feel I do not matter. If I thought it was time for us to shake the dust off of our shoes and move on, it would be an easy choice. But I don’t feel it’s time. And for us, a decision to leave would mean relocating, not just to a new church, but a new home, a new job, and my kids would have to leave their friends - again. (Having said that, I did spend some time with my husband Sunday afternoon telling him that I don’t feel I belong there anymore. It was one of those mornings when I just felt so alone.)
So, I’m trying to figure out the next thing. I’m stuck. Does anyone out there have a clue as to what that might be? How about what I should NOT do?
Love all ya’ll! This would be unbearably lonely without you!
-Vicki
Beverly - It's easier to look back and evaluate a situation from afar than it is when you're in the middle of it. Give yourself a break. God will show you the way. When you get to the right place, it will feel just that - right!
:::posted by Vicki on 9/04/2002 11:23:05 AM
Beverly,
Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be miserable. I don't think you are wrong to seek God elsewhere. As much as we as a movement need people to raise questions and push, there are some areas of the battle where one lone soldier can be outnumbered. In that case it is wise to pull back, rest, heal your wounds, and wait for reinforcements before re-entering the fray. That may be a long time where you are. It's not fair for you to endure decades more of oppression without the light of hope in sight. God lives beyond the walls of the Churches of Christ. You are still with Him. He loves you no matter what.
My congregation in straddling the fence on women's inclusion. It's making my muscles cramp. Women are allowed to teach adult classes - as long as an alternate class is provided so no one has to violate his conscience. In our auditorium, however, the closest thing to public worship is a praise team seated on the front row. We did recently have a visiting couple leave when the woman teacher led the opening prayer in Sunday School. Our preacher asked me if I would prepare a pamphlet that we could have on hand to help communicate our position in future situations. Although at first I said I would, as I thought about it, I couldn't do it. What would I say? ..."If you think women do too much between 9:30 and 10:30, just wait - you'll love our worship service."...
But unlike Beverly, I do see a hopeful future for our congregation. Even though we haven't had the bold, officially sanctioned discussion like Mike described, there have been many private discussions. People see the inconsistencies and ask questions. We have a challenging new preacher. I feel like there is hope ahead. I don't know how long the journey will be, but I can continue because I am not alone and I see hope. Beverly, I can't imagine facing that struggle alone. So please don't feel you are being unchristian. You might be being un-church-of-christ, but I don't think that's the same thing.
Mike, I have been holding you and the Zoe conference planners in prayer. I will continue to do so.
In Christ,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/04/2002 09:26:54 AM
I hope everyone understands that I meant Spiritual swords and hammers, not *real* tools. Ephesians 6 was what I had in mind.
I'm going to unload on y'all. I hope it's ok, and that God will use any harm I might cause our effort for good. (I've been afraid to be too honest: One of the limits of a public forum, but I promise to behave. One of the most terrible parts of all this, is there is really no one to talk to in a completely open way. But y'all have encouraged me.)
Back in June or July, when we were still studying 1 Corinthians in Sunday class, I decided that I was going to wear a head covering, at least in "worship service." Larry was supportive, if worried. When we got to the church, the first person we saw was one of the widows from our class. I just couldn't do that to *her.* I tried to explain this to the preacher, but I don't think he understood that the reason I didn't do it was not because I didn't want to make a fuss. I didn't want to hurt these women who have lived this way their whole lives, and because I still was not ready to risk the division it could or would cause in the church.
Then we learned that the video testimonies had happened, after all while we were out of town, and that there was actually objection to that, before the "closing prayer." Then I heard another woman say, "We can't start this before the new building is done." The clincher was that the fund-raiser (a man) is a Baptist, who said so while leading that Sunday night's meeting, after the "opening prayer." He was there to teach us the Bible and why we should give beyond our tithe, until it hurts.
The church would rather have a Baptist man preach than have a woman from their own congregations give her testimony - even artificially!
When I realized how far from even realizing how ***wrong*** they were about women, I decided I couldn't go back (at least the 2nd time in August that I decided this, but I wimped out last time). Larry said he would rather worship with me than without, so we began to look around. I don't know what will happen, but at least things will be different.
Larry taught the Wednesday night men's group (because of a "prior commitment" - no comment) after that night, but I was spared the decision by a patient who showed up 1 minute before closing at my clinic. I did tell the preacher that I didn't think I could come back. (When he said it was just bad "tradition," I said "It's just pure sin!")
Sunday, we visited a Christian Church (DOC) church that has a woman associate minister (who is out for knee surgery, right now) and which has women participate in serving the communion. Unfortunately, since my husband still turns pale at the sight of a piano, they also have a piano, an organ, a choir, robes, vestments, and a (girl!) acolyte who lit candles after the procession. Despite my worry about Larry (and my own Landmark Baptist upbringing that definitely objected to the vestments) I really enjoyed the service. The preacher gave a beautiful sermon on "Beware burning bushes" (Moses' calling by God) and even explained the candles (which serve to focus us on worship, to remind us that God was present). I nearly broke out in sobs when the 4 women walked down the aisle with the men to serve communion.
No one, including the preacher and Larry's parents, have called to ask why we didn't show up Sunday. We will be able to postpone decision on what to do for a few more days, because last month I bought front row seats to a Lyle Lovett and Bonnie Raitt concert in Austin (I didn't really realize it was on a Wednesday, but I'm not sure it would have made difference. I've never had front row seats, before!
Let's all pray for each other, and, please pray that I can act like the Christian that I am.
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 9/04/2002 12:44:40 AM
The absolutely most irritating thing is for a congregation to take a time to study women's role in the church and then to come to the conclusion that inclusion is what God wanted and then not make any changes. We have been there and I hope that Highland doesn't do the same. What kind of message is that sending? To me it felt like I wasn't important enough to make changes for. I also attended Highland while at ACU and still have so many warm memories from being there. I worked in the special needs program with Bill Nash and David Lang. David was my very close friend. Bill was such an incredible spirit. I sometimes think about that time with all those people with so many handicaps that made them different from the rest of us. I sometimes feel like the "least of these" as a woman in the church of Christ but constant contact with all of them made me so much more aware of my privileges and entitlements. God's spirit lives in those special needs people of the world and they have so much to teach us. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/03/2002 10:24:01 PM
Mike,
My wife and I visited with ya'll about three weeks ago with my youngest daughter who attends the early service during the school year and the Singles Class. She has kept us kind of updated occassionally but not alot :>) I read a sheet put out by the elders that was out on one of the tables that described the last year or so. It really didn't say what the most recent changes have been but that it was an ongoing thing. I'm curious how the transition is going and where females have been or are going to be moved into an equal position in teaching or worship participation and how that has been accepted so far. BTW, also had the priviledge of attending a class taught by Dr. Willis (who performed the wedding service for my Children's Minister daughter- Shannon) that Sunday morning. I found out why she liked Dr. Willis so much while she was in graduate school out there!!! Wish we could steal him away from ya'll :>)
God bless,
Wiley Clarkson
:::posted by Wiley on 9/03/2002 07:35:28 PM
Julie, I don't have the heart to carry on a personal rebellion against the institution of inherent privilege either. That is why I say the initial work of "wall breaking" will have to be carried out by men. But as a woman, I feel it is my task to prepare my heart and mind for that "day" and to keep my thoughts honest, and my heart free of malice. We are all subject to corruption.
Ah yes, if the ladies bathroom walls could speak ...! I've been there. Some nice person put in a padded bench. Now, I can sit down and respond to the intercom in theraputic comfort. When another woman comes in and asks if I am alright, I say, "No. I just need to sit here for a while." "Well, I know how that feels" she says, "I hope you are feeling better soon" I say, "Thanks. So do I."
Mike, I know your lectures will be successful in Nashville. I wish I could be there. I'm praying for you.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/03/2002 06:56:06 PM
Hello, friends. Just a moment for a quick post . . . . A couple years ago I preached four messages at the Highland Church in Abilene on "gender justice." Since then, Highland has been studying this issue--first the leadership team and then the whole congregation. An announcement was made on May 26 by the elders at the end of the study--at least of this stage of the study. Several good things happened during the process. One was that the leaders attempted to put people together in settings where they'd have to listen to people with whom they disagreed. E.g., on a couple Sundays Bible classes were combined. Everyone was asked to sit at tables with people they didn't know well. Then they were asked to go around the circle and tell how they felt about the whole process. What a powerful experience! Many tears were shed by people as they expressed their hope, their anger, their fear, their sense of betrayal, their delight, etc. God did wonderful things as people moved into nooks and crannies of the community where they don't often visit. Stereotypes were exposed as lies when some wanting change had to listen to members with honest scriptural concerns and when some resisting change realized this study wasn't being forced on them by "women just wanting to be up front." It's a great thing when God's people actually stop to listen to one another! (I'm so sorry for the many testimonies in this forum by people who have never really been "heard.") By the way, I've been asked to present those four messages at the Zoe leadership conference in Nashville in October. Please pray for me. Thanks, Mike
:::posted by Mike on 9/03/2002 05:58:18 PM
Carmen, I will explain a little and probably Ann will fill in more later. As a congregation we had been beginning to talk about the role of women in worship and were having discussions on Thursday nights that we called Round Table discussions. The elders were involved and so were many other members. Most of the members were adamantly opposed to any female participation. They were also the members who left when we began to have a woman teach a mixed adult class on Sunday morning. Also some of the same people who walked out as a read a scripture as part of a VBS announcement on Sunday morning. I was directing VBS that year and had been asked to give an announcement about it. I chose a scripture that I thought put it all together for me. I Cor where it talks about the body having many members and that it would take all of us to make VBS successful. They walked out before I even opened my mouth. That night after Sunday services an elder pulled me aside and told me to never do that again. I asked then if it would have been okay if I had read from any other book besides the Bible and he said yes...it would've been okay. I was so upset that I got in my car and drove away and drove for an about an hour until I ran out of land. I then didn't know what I was going to do. How could I go back there? How could I direct VBS when my heart wasn't in it anymore?
I said all of that to give you an idea of where I was and how I had been feeling around this time in my life. The discussions were actually very well attended but mostly just argument and who could be the most right. One night it just happened that it was just the elders and their wives and Ann and me. We should have known that it probably wasn't a good idea to go on with the meeting but we did. It ended with anger and one elder putting his hand in Ann's face and saying "Can't you just be quiet?". Ann was ready to leave that night and we sat out on the porch with Ann's mother and talked for about an hour. We convinced Ann to stay but I didn't feel very good about that.
The next Sunday morning neither one of us could go into the auditorium. We didn't plan it. I had taught a children's class and then went to the bathroom and began to cry. I couldn't make myself go in. I didn't know that Ann was standing outside the auditorium feeling the same thing. When I finally came out of the bathroom Ann was standing outside of the doors and I joined her. I told her that I couldn't go in and she said neither could she. We worshipped together. I can still hear our two voices singing alone out there. It was a beautiful sound but also quiet and lonely.
I believe we stayed there for 3 months or so. My husband was supportive and yet apprehensive about what I was doing. My husband was the youth minister. That put him in an awkward place. Even those who were supportive were uncomfortable. No one is bold enough to challenge tradition in that way and I would say that normally I am not but felt I had no choice. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/03/2002 04:46:27 PM
Julie,
I am with you. I feel that staying is the right thing to do. And studying the relationships of Man and Woman in the bible and in history has been a great and unexpected spiritual reward for participating in the dysfunctional system of inherent priviledge or Male Spiritual Headship. I hope this website encourages more of us to study. God is near to us even -- especially -- in our troubles.
I do remember your post about worshiping outside and what led up to it. And I think it might be too early to estimate the value of what you did ... confronting the lie by worshipping outside the auditorium. If it is not too painful, I would like to see you write more about it.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/03/2002 03:46:02 PM
Carmen, I know that Ann told this in an earlier post but here it is again because you have spoken to it again. Ann and I did worship outside the auditorium for a period of months for that very reason. With the level of participation that we are allowed, we might as well worship from behind the curtain. We started out just outside the doors. We sang all the songs and bowed in prayer and listened the sermon, just not inside. We were then told that our "spot" was too disruptive and we moved to the cry room. A few people knew what was happening and were supportive and understanding but not so compelled that they felt they had to join us. One friend came and sang one song with us. Most avoided us as if we had some kind of contagious illness. We were told that we were being bad mothers and terrible examples to our children and were overburdening our husbands to ask them to be with our children through every service. We did finally retreat because the elders had agreed to study gender equality and what that means in the life of the church. Everyone was relieved to have us back in "our places". That story still circulates. Sometimes very blown up into something it wasn't and sometimes in truth to show that even that didn't make a difference. Not too many people were concerned about why we were doing it. They were much more concerned about appearances and how it made them feel. I am at a different place than I was then. That was about 6 years ago. I am more convicted to see change and more convinced that staying is the right move. God calls us to do so much that is so much bigger than we ever imagine ourselves being. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/03/2002 02:04:20 PM
Ann,
There was a time when my whole body trembled through the service. That was when I decided to read anything I could get my hands on that would help me to sort all of this out. I even took the books with me to church and read them during the worship. It calmed me down ... helped me to find some solid earth for my tired legs. Now that I have a grasp on what we are doing and how we came to be here, church is more like a scientific study in gender relations to me than actual worship. I find it fascinating on an intellectual level, but I really have to reach to find God there. God is so generous to grace our dysfunctional spiritual homes!
I do know of one wonderful man who will not serve on the Lord's Table because it appears to him to be more about male-bonding than about Jesus. As for Rosa Parks style activism, years ago, the idea came to me that if women truly "unveiled" the lie of male entitlement for what it is, we would be worshipping outside the auditiorium in the lobby, wearing veils. That is the truth ... the reality of female submission to male spiritual authority in the worship. If the women engaged the congregation like this, it would give a face ... bring into vision ... the different world we inhabit in the worship. Veiling can be a powerful image. It defines our perimeters. If we bring attention to those perimeters with visual bounderies, it might awaken some to discover what they actually mean and how they came to be there. Every time I worship in the auditiorium I enable corruption and perpetuate the lie. I guess, when like Rosa, I just can't endure another moment, I will probably do that. Who knows, there might be some peace in it. In the meantime I write a letter on occasion without expecting -- or recieving -- a thoughtful response.
I guess, at my age, my veil will have to be purple...
:::posted by Carmen on 9/03/2002 12:33:41 PM
It is so frustrating that I, or we, need to convince male leaders that we are worthy to worship God. Why do I need anyone's permission to read the Bible? I know that you hear how ridiculous that question sounds. But such is our plight, that we need to convince those in power, those for whom this is not a life or death matter, those for whom this is not a "defining issue." One day, the men in my congregation will allow me to serve communion. I will do it because God has called me to and I long to participate in that holy ritual. But I will be doing it because the men finally relented. Sometimes my blood races and my heart pounds with the injustice of that.
But how do you convince those who aren't oppressed that what appears to them as a "non-salvation issue," a "minor injustice," is worth fighting for? My only choice is to stay and make a nuisance of myself with my questions, or leave for a congregation where I will have more freedom in worship. But men do have more options in battling for gender justice - just as whites had more power to push for laws against racism. I know Lance has created this safe place for our questions. I do so appreciate that Chad and Wiley and Joe are willing to talk about this. But are there other ways to take a stand? Is my worship worth a man taking a stand for me?
Every time I see 5 men gather around the communion table, I am reminded of my exclusion. I know that there are some men in my congregation who are sympathetic to gender equity, but there they are, guarding the Lord's Supper from me Sunday after Sunday. I was wondering what would happen if men in our churches began to refuse to participate in this symbol of exclusion. What would happen if some bold men said, "My wife/daughter/sister/friend is spiritually qualified for this act of service. Until we as a congregation recognize this, I will no longer participate in such a visible display of injustice."
How long did people talk about the injustice of slavery before people were willing to go to battle for it? How many decades did people talk about the injustices of racism before people were willing to take action? We need a Rosa Parks. I need a bus to sit on. I'm tired of waiting and waiting and waiting. I'm tired of the wishy-washy. I'm tired of gentle wording. I'm tired of being the stronger brother. Why do I have to convince anyone that there is no inappropriate time for me to read God's Word?
Sometimes I just can't take it anymore. I know there's hope ahead, but sometimes it seems so far away. I'm tired of taking slow careful steps forward. I just want to grab everyone's hands and sprint.
Thanks for listening to my anger.
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/03/2002 11:19:58 AM
Carmen is right that when we in this fellowship body “awaken to the feminine fullness of the Gospel” it will be “a real, lasting theology of Woman that will have holding power”, because we will root that theology in Scripture. I have been amazed learning that many other fellowships merely appear to be gender inclusive by having women read Scripture, serve communion, even preach from a pulpit, having been given permission - by men - to do those things. Excuse me, but that’s not justice. That’s a handout. Don’t be fooled by the appearance of justice. Seek - and fight for - the real thing!
:::posted by Vicki on 9/03/2002 10:11:25 AM
Wow Carmen! You have touched me this morning. Yes, there are those who have to study this issue because it is life or death. Our spirits are compelled! We opened a window somewhere in our lives and we had to then open the door and take off the roof and then attempt to get those walls down. In the beginning of my struggle with gender equality...I tried to slow myself down but that was impossible. I didn't have a choice...I had to keep searching and thinking.
The hope you just gave me about the church of Christ is enormous. To hope that we will move to gender equality and that it is a lasting and deep-rooted theology of justice makes we want to stay. I want to see it from the inside of this body of believers. I want to be there at those moments...the first female keynote speaker at a major conference( although Zoe did do that a couple of years ago at the leadership portion), and in our individual church families...first time women serve communion, first time a woman leads singing, preaches a sermon........I know that you all get this. I want to be in the middle of it. Let's keep talking about it and praying about it. grace, Julie
:::posted by julie on 9/03/2002 09:26:33 AM
My friends usually express shock and surprise when I tell them that my church has not moved along on this issue. At that point, I remind them that the Vatican still refuses to recognise women priests and that on the whole, religion -- Judaism. Islam, Buddhism and many mainstream Protestant groups -- still rejects the idea of egalitarianism. The Southern Baptists were there, and they backed off when new leadership stepped in. The Catholics have come close, but women priests must be prepared to work on the unorthodox fringe. But studies have shown that even Episcopal, Lutheran and Disciples churches, when they have their druthers, prefer a man with a wife and children serve in their choice pulpits.
I think the problem is education. Christians want the leaderships to do all of the studying and come up with a decision that will either confirm that women should be marginalised or to open up more participation by women. There are many problems with this method, the foremost being that over time, leaderships change ... and times change leaderships. A charismatic church in our area recently had a change in the pulpit and, voila! women can no longer preach on Sunday nights. (they have a member fill the pulpit program for Sunday night worship services) How many of us, since 9/11 have heard sermons and read articles in Christian newspapers and magazines with subtle and overt condemnations of the way American Chrisitan women dress and conduct ourselves compared to Muslim women? how we hinder missionary efforts and create a cultural chasm because we do not dress modestly and speak directly to men and do not avert our eyes?
Like racism, gender equity will come and gender equity will go depending on which way the wind blows. We seem to like metaphors, so here goes ... Strong minds, like strong and rooted trees, can hold up to even the strongest wind. Education is so important. But how many whites have invested time, money and serious mental effort to understand racism? That might explain why so few male leaders of the church have the heart to go to the effort to read the deep scholarly work on gender-equity. Generally speaking -- and not to discount the incredible contributions of sympathisers -- black men read Malcolm and Christian women read Schussler-Fiorenza. Those who really study, study to save their lives because they are at risk of dying before they see their lives change -- unlike those who study because they are obligated by the group or church to come up with some "guidelines and solutions." This is why the "progressive" results of such studies are almost as wishy-washy and inconsistant as the status quo.
So, I tell my friends ... Yes, yes, it's pretty shameful and backwoods. But I have observed that even the most progressive churches are only beginning to awaken to the feminine fullness of the Gospel. I also tell them that I believe the Church of Christ, regardless of being late in gender-equity (and maybe because of it) will give birth to a real, lasting theology of Woman that will have holding power because when we finally decide to put down roots, we -- of all people -- will go for bedrock.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/03/2002 02:09:06 AM
Today was Labor Day, and so I labored - in the garage. In sorting through the stuff that I keep and junk that I throw away, I came across a piece of paper, about 5 years old, with the following handwritten quotes on it. I hesitate sharing them publicly, because I can’t remember whose they are. Cindy Jacobs (WOMEN OF DESTINY), perhaps. I think they’re excellent. What do you think?
“The only thing God said was not good in all of creation was man’s aloneness. Therefore, it stands to reason that Satan would want to wound the relationship between man and woman – not only in the home, but also in the work force and the church, so that man would once again be in the state God called “not good”.”
“The full image of God is displayed through both genders, as man and woman complement each other, side by side.”
“Satan cannot afford to have Eden restored and man and woman standing together as they did in the Garden. This would bring order to the home and order to the church.”
“In the Garden, both Adam and Eve could relate emotionally. They were able to give one another the gift of understanding. Not now. Now, if a woman wants understanding from a man, what does she get?
– Solutions, answers, advice –
A relationship that was meant to be complementary became competitive.”
:::posted by Vicki on 9/02/2002 11:46:38 PM
While at seminary, fellow classmates and professors advised me to change denominations. I kept saying, "why trade one dysfunction for another?" So yes Vicki, I do realize that "ALL denominations/churches have problems" however many of my fellow classmates weren't dealing with a tradition entrenched in sectarianism and steeped in patriarchy.
I guess what I'm getting at is this: I think the mission for those of us who want to be agents of change is twofold. First, I think we do as we have been saying in this forum and continue to whisper or scream the truth into our church leaders' ears. I also think it is important for our church leaders and church family to hear from outsiders. Let us invite co-workers, friends and strangers into our churches and let them be mouthpieces for how ridiculous it is that the church still functions in such ancient ways.
I know, I know, I can already hear the church leaders, "What do those folks know anyway?" However, I'm sure that is what the religious rulers said about Amos as he made his way from the southern territory (his home) into the nothern territory or Jonah as he went into the strange land of Nineveh or Jesus as he went into unknown places. Much like the prophets of old, let these outsiders speak as well. And yes, we should be apologetic but I think Vicki is right on, we are all still on board this ship we call the "Church of Christ" because there are great things about it so let us not forget this! Thanks Vicki.
:::posted by jch on 9/02/2002 11:39:04 PM
Joe, Would it help you to know that ALL denominations/churches have problems they struggle with and are embarrassed about? My husband is part of a Ministerial Alliance which encompasses all denominations of the city that choose to participate. (Yes, there are women in the group.) In their meetings, they share some of those struggles. Same story, different name. One church was splitting over choir robes! So, the way I see it, there’s no need to be embarrassed.
When the opportunity presents itself, I use the moment to share the many POSITIVE things found in my church family. I answer questions in the positive, even if all I can manage to say is that we’re working on it. The love is so profound among my church family that people, guests incl., just don’t seem to care that we’re patriarchal. It truly feels good to be among them.
One last thing. While we are listed in church directories as being “Churches of Christ”, we have unofficially dropped “of Christ” from our name, adding below - in smaller type - "a church of Christ family". It’s sort of a disclaimer, I guess. To me, that says we have roots in the Restoration Movement, but we’re not your mother’s Church of Christ, if you know what I mean. We haven’t “arrived.” We’re still in the process of restoring.
I don't hang my head anymore. I've learned to thank God for my roots. They gave me a solid foundation on which to build my own faith.
-Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 9/02/2002 11:05:47 PM
Hello everyone. I have been away from the Forum for a while and I was surprised that it took me quite a bit of reading to catch up! Thank you all for sharing your insights and experiences. Joe, I have found that it is very difficult for me to invite my non-CofC friends (churched or not) to worship at one of our congregations. Most of the women I know in my professional life would not stand for the gender-exclusive worship practices we follow. Several years ago I participated in a Chamber of Commerce-sponsored Leadership training program in our county, and one of the assignments we were given was to select several areas where we wanted to make a difference in the community. I listed, to open up my denomination to full participation by women. I think those who saw my list were amazed that we were still so backward. One of my oldest and dearest friends from childhood (she is a Methodist) knows that my faith is important to me, and that our church does not allow women to participate in worship. She asked me to read the scripture at her wedding last summer. It is the only time I have ever been allowed to read a scripture aloud in that type of setting. I don't know if she realized the enormity of the gift she gave me that day or not, but it is one of the dearest things anyone has ever done for me and at the same time, incredibly bittersweet. I still have the bookmark from that day in my Bible, at that passage--I don't have the heart to move it.
I don't know if equality in our churches will happen in my lifetime. I like to hope that it will. I am greatly encouraged by Katie and Lance's experience at West Islip, by the saints at Cahaba Valley, by our friends at Chapel Hill who are led in singing on Sunday mornings by a woman's voice, by the courage of Bob Randolph and the congregation at Brookline to take the lead on this many years before anyone else. I am encouraged by each of you and by your thoughtful and prayerful yearning for that day to come. At the moment I would be a little happier if just the Sunday morning bulletin did not include the standard invitation for "the men" who wish "to serve" to make sure their names are on the lists, and they will be placed on the schedule.
Someone said a while back, "I am tired of being the stronger brother." Amen, sister!
Thank you all for the encouragement.
--Mary Lou
:::posted by Christopher on 9/02/2002 11:03:29 PM
Joe, I find that I hesitate to invite nonchurched friends to church with me unless they have already had some contact with us...VBS, Pioneer Clubs, or something else. I just had a conversation at work with some friends and it was very negative and they were apalled that I went to a church where women could not participate fully. They all told me I should leave and find another church. I tried to explain why I stay but was very inadequate in my explanation. I am afraid that I left them more than confused. Sorry that I wasn't more helpful. grace, Julie
I look forward to the day when I can invite without apologies and we as a body are allowing the Spirit lead to the heights!
:::posted by julie on 9/02/2002 04:36:45 PM
I'm interested in knowing if any of y'all ever invite non-churched friends to your churches. In other words, when I tell someone that I am a minister at a Church of Christ, I find that I follow that up with some kind of apology. One, how do you explain your Church of Christ affiliation to others outside our heritage and two, would you or do you invite non-churched friends to your churches and how do you deal with the patriarchical practices your non-churched friends will experience when they visit your church?
:::posted by jch on 9/02/2002 10:32:45 AM
Vicki,
I was going to say no but then I decided to check my work schedule. Now, I'm going to have to give it some consideration. It will be tough to get there due to having to work on that Friday evening and I don't normally get off work until 23:30 hours. I'm not presently serving as an elder but it would be really good to attend. I'll let you know more when it gets closer.
About that cloning thing---I don't think the world is ready for another "ME". I know my wife would probably have nightmares over that thought (BTW we have God-made "clone" daughters--twins), and I'm quite sure most elderships are not prepared to deal with me or a clone and would just cringe at the thought. Guess I'm just way too radical and opinionated :>)
Carmen,
you are a real sweetheart with those most kind words. They really mean alot to me and I will cherish them.
"at your service, ma'am"
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 9/01/2002 10:50:00 PM
Good Morning Friends,
Wow! I had a busy weekend and it's taken me a while to catch up on the posts! You can't blink too long here.
Lance, and all silent readers, I am sorry if I took us off course too. I have found strength in humor during this battle, but I guess some of our soldier jokes were too much for some civilians. I sure hope we didn't discourage anyone from enlisting in this battle.
You guys are all great with a metaphor! I love it. Vicki, Julie and I have always joked about the topics of area "Ladies' Days" calling them "Bloom Where You're Planted" talks. Maybe we should put one together called "Swing Where You're Standing." I think Lance and the folks who've put this forum together have given us the chance to look through the small chinks in the wall to see all the other hammerers working on this wall.
Now I've gotta run or I will be late for Sunday School. I'll try to keep my hammer in the little loop on my carpenter pants, but I will have it ready with me, just in case.
I love you guys!
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 9/01/2002 09:13:21 AM
Can we have Wiley cloned??
Wiley - Will you be a part of ElderLink in November?
:::posted by Vicki on 9/01/2002 08:32:25 AM
Shelly,
Thank you! I'm glad you like the lectures! I have not had the courage to listen to the tapes, but I have wondered if they even make any sense without the 200+ images. It was a difficult choice, but since I was speaking about the language of art, I felt the need to back off and allow the art to make some points without a profusion of commentary. Even so, I managed to talk too much anyway. Lance won't be suprised to know that I went overtime... I have always had great respect for public speakers but, since ACU, mere respect has been replaced with Awe. I'm an actor. People tend to think that that's "something." But let me tell you, memorising every sentence in Ulysses and delivering it to an audience of other actors is a cake walk compared to keeping the attention of an audience of learned Christians, equipped with nothing but your own spiritual meanderings! Yes, I like to do it, but it sure doesn't come easy ... but I guess that's why they have schools for it. God bless preachers, ministers, pastors .... whatever you want to call 'em! I toast you all (male and female...) with a jumbo jar of Tums.
And Wiley is such an inspiration for me too ... a real seeking soul. And I know that he truly forgives me for taking him for a computer technician or a maintenance guy! Before my lecture I was having trouble with the PowerPoint -- I only know it well enough to get into trouble -- and, on top of that, the air-conditioning had failed, so I called for assistance. Well, what am I supposed to think? Within minutes Wiley (whom I had never met before in person) appears at the door wearing a ballcap, flannel shirt and bluejeans ... to my eyes he was the fix-it guy I was waiting for ... equipped with everything but a toolbelt and with a calm "at your service, ma'am" kind of look. But he didn't let me feel like an idiot for another moment. He truly was at my service in the audience with his big smile shining at me through my "trial by fire."
You know the meaning of "Elder" when you meet Wiley. He feels like an open book that you can just fall into and find your own words written there. He is a confessor, a friend, and a spiritual father to me.
:::posted by Carmen on 9/01/2002 01:20:00 AM
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