Gal328.org - "Forum"

Articles
Contacts
Forum
Home
Join Us
Links
F.R.O.
Readings

The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.

I've been looking through our archived conversations for who's going to the Zoe conference in Nashville this weekend. Did we have that conversation here? or am I getting confused with worshipforum.com and wineskins.com? So remind me, who's going? I can't wait to go. Only 4 more days! Yahoo!
Love,
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/30/2002 09:58:08 AM

'sniff'

I love you too, Mom!
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/29/2002 03:13:14 PM

Dear Ann's (and Julie's) Mother,

I am crying over my keyboard after reading your camp experience. What an awesome thing to share as mother and grown daughter!

I'm so glad you're here!
- Vicki

:::posted by Vicki on 9/29/2002 12:40:53 AM

Sue, you are my spiritual mother and I will claim you anytime and forever. You make me so proud! Wow! We have come a long way since we first started talking about 15 years ago. I can only say, "You go, girl!" And I know from experience that Sue is a great camp nurse. grace as always, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/28/2002 10:22:35 PM

Hi everyone,
I've been listening in on your conversations for quite a while now. I feel like I often do at family reunions when my grown children are talking and I wonder where these interesting, intelligent people come from. Anyway I thought it was time I introduced myself and let you know I'm here.

My name is Sue. I'm 61 years old. I live in Maryland. My daughter Ann is part of this forum, as is my spiritual daughter Julie. I thought you should hear the thoughts of one of older generation who finally "gets it", and is anxious to see more freedom for all Christians in our churches. I've been thinking about posting this for awhile, since Lisa shared about how we go through stages from precontemplation to action on the role of women in our fellowship. For 50 years I was in the precontemplation stage. I grew up in a diferent world. All the women I knew were stay at home moms. The only working women I ever knew were school teachers. It was pretty much an Ozzie & Harriet world. The Church of Christ is the only church I've ever known. I learned about faith and love here.I was content and happy and serving my Lord. It never occured to me that I should questions the traditions that I had always known and trusted. I didn't know I was inside a box of rules that prevented me from seeing more and knowing more of God's grace. When Ann started questioning the rules and asking questions that I had never thought to ask it scared me. I was afraid she might get hurt. Then Julie and I started studying together. I wondered what she was trying to say. I just didn't get it. We kept studing and praying together. The elders and their wives (my husband was an elder for 25 years- he recently resigned) began to study the question of what scriptures really say and holding our traditional practices up to the mirror of God's word. I found it scarey. My traditions didn't match what I saw in God's word. It became obvious to the whole group that we were making up rules and putting up barriers that were not put there by God. The sad part was that the group found changing the traditions too hard to do. It was uncomfortable. They were afraid of offending someone. That was about 8 years ago. It has been a long, painful road since then. But I see signs of good changes in the not too distant future for our congregation now. We have been contemplating and preparing. I pray we are about to take some action. My advice to you. Never give up. Do not quit telling your stories. Do not quit studying. Be loving, but keep talking. Keep praying. Go ahead and be passoinate about what is important - and being free in Christ is important!

One camp story to share. Last fall our congregation went to the mountains for our annual retreat. Saturday evening we were talking about who would do what in our Sunday morning service. I said I would be happy to do the oration for the Lord's Supper, expecting the usual smile while they picked some man, but they said ok. So on a beautiful autumn Sunday in the chapel in the the woods I presided over the Lord's Table. I had thought a lot about what I would say, but it didn't occur to me until I was standing there with the bread in my hands that I had to also lead the prayer. I prayed with much thanksgiving. My daughter was on one side, a good woman friend on the other to serve the communion. I was 60 years old. I had been a Christian all my life. It felt right. God is good.

I plan to retire in June. I could be camp nurse. I really would like a place with flush toilets.
Grace & Peace to you all.
Sue

:::posted by Sue on 9/28/2002 08:56:18 PM

I have camped at Buffalo Gap with only sleeping bags, a pack of Poptarts and some matches. Poptarts are great stuck on a stick over the fire. We didn't think about the snakes...we were college students. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/27/2002 09:34:13 PM

Mike,

don't forget the dried up lakes, forests of mesquit with lot of thorns, and cedar for the sinuses. Talking about it just made me yearn to come out there. I'll be at Abilene State Park next weekend!!! ---Wiley

:::posted by Wiley on 9/27/2002 06:05:01 PM

Patty - It still counts! :-)

:::posted by Vicki on 9/27/2002 05:05:54 PM

Oops, I meant next weekend.
Vicki- LOL

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/27/2002 03:59:47 PM

Patty - I think it counts. A measure I use is that it counts when someone complains!

Have a great and blessing-filled weekend!!
-Vicki

:::posted by Vicki on 9/27/2002 03:43:57 PM

I just had to share this. A group from my congregation is going camping this weekend and on Sunday morning I'm leading singing! I'm pretty excited. It has been a while since I got to lead singing. I know that they may be thinking that it doesn't count so much because we won't be "at church" but my husband is doing a sermon, we are having communion so I think it counts.

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/27/2002 03:41:03 PM

And don't forget tumbleweeds and dust... But I'm a Harding grad, so I guess I should counter with Searcy. Mosquitos, humidity, and more mosquitos.

:::posted by TWD on 9/27/2002 03:27:56 PM

Why is no one mentioning Abilene? Think of it . . . heat, cactus, rattlesnakes, flat plains . . . . Now there's a camp to remember!

:::posted by Mike on 9/27/2002 03:06:21 PM

I have just had a terrible day at work and have caught up on your posts....emotions are running high. Wow! To be able to worship together in the middle of God's wonderful world and everyone could participate...wouldn't that be incredible?!! We should seriously do this. I am excited already! grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/26/2002 04:45:50 PM

OK, Next summer I have half of May and all of June off from work. Could we do it then? I could possibly get a week off later in the summer but that would be harder. There are some great places in Lake of the Ozarks for camping. But CO is also a great idea. How rustic do we want to go? (How much do we want to spend?) Would we make the first year just camping with families and work from there ? (Wouldn't that be fun! We could have Worship together on Sunday morning and everyone could participate!!!) I'm getting more excited as I type this. It would be a chance for so many of us to experience for one Sunday what we long to experience every week and never have. It would be a chance to show our children (not that I have any) what true equality looks like. Or at least as well as we are able to do it. A little slice of heaven on earth. Also doing it family camping style would mean fewer logistics to work out. No nurse or life guard to hire. No cooks, no camp insurance etc. Esp for the first year to get it off the ground.
I hope you guys are as serious as I am about this.

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/26/2002 03:05:00 PM

MO sounds good to me! It is the center of the US (not too far from INDY) and a beautiful place!
S.

:::posted by Shelly on 9/26/2002 01:33:09 PM

There must be a lovely place in Colorado! (Always looking for any excuse to go to CO!)

:::posted by Vicki on 9/26/2002 01:15:00 PM

Carmen,
There's a really large camp (Pendleton) just north of Oceanside, but I don't know if the Marines would share. Still, they have made a lot more progress in gender equity than many churches have, so it might be appropriate. Still, I'm sure Patty would point out that Missouri is the geographic center of the 48 states.
-Tom

:::posted by TWD on 9/26/2002 12:53:35 PM

Ann,
Lance will give you my email. C'mon Tom ... I was thinking that Oceanside would be just dandy for a camp. Care to be the activities director?

:::posted by Carmen on 9/26/2002 12:43:55 PM

Somewhere in Maryland sounds good to me ;-)
-Tom

:::posted by TWD on 9/26/2002 12:18:47 PM

That camp idea is terrific. I'd fly in with my kids to work there too. Let's think of it as a real possibility. I bet we could get some sponsors for finacial assistance. All we need is a location. It sounds like Carmen, Patty and I can be on staff. Any other volunteers? Does anyone have a location of possibility?
I'm excited about the idea!
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/26/2002 09:01:11 AM

Beverly, when you get a chance send me directions on how to get to Sunset Ridge. It looks like we may be camping in your area in December and that may be on a Sunday.

:::posted by Wiley on 9/25/2002 10:25:52 PM

Beverly, loved you telling about your experience at Sunset Ridge. There is life out there! Thank you for reminding us.
Patty, thanks for sharing your camp experience. I was way too close to the situation that Ann described and have taken many years to heal from those wounds. I am so glad that at the camp you attend you are able to be a part and make a difference. It is comforting to know that others have been on the same battlefield with us all along. If only we had known when in the midst of it. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/25/2002 09:16:17 PM

Here's the web link for the MISH
http://www.medinstitute.org/

:::posted by Beverly on 9/25/2002 07:03:28 PM

Sunday, at Sunset Ridge, we heard a woman give the call to worship (and opening prayer). little girls recite the 23rd Psalm, and men and women reading the scripture. No one seemed to notice, except me!
The few people I've told from our last church act as though I'm being smart ("See, I told you so" stuff) when really, I'm just happy that we were able to find a COC that appears to be much more egalitarian than I thought possible.
We haven't cut off ties with the New Braunfels church: next week Larry and I are taking the youth minister and his wife to a Changemakers abstinence education conference. For more information on the organization that sponsors Changemakers, see Medical Institute of Sexual Health www.medinstitute.org

:::posted by Beverly on 9/25/2002 07:00:33 PM

Mike- I see that you will be in my neck of the woods next month. (St Louis) I would love to get together if you have the time, but I understand if you will be just too busy.

On the Christian camp front. I would certainly support a camp like that. At the camp where I grew up and worked for many years as an adult the system was inconsistent at best. We had women on the board but they were never elected president, just secretary. (a position my father held for many years and then my mother did.) The girls were encouraged to be very active and participate in a lot of things but lines were drawn various places. Once 2 of my campers asked me to baptize them. I had known them for years and immediately said yes. This was only going to be allowed if no males were present. They had too many male friends to want that. In fact my studying with them wasn't even acceptable. They had to pick a man to do it and study with him as well. I was allowed to go into the water with them. I wish now that I hadn't done that but at the time it seemed like the best choice. Both girls were confused and hurt by the incident. They have now fallen away.
I had to study with girl campers when the director asked for volunteers to pray and didn't pick them. In fact only these girls volunteered and the director acted like he couldn't see them at all. At their home church they could pray in devo situations like that. I can't remember what I told them but I basically explained to them what the people who were keeping them from participating believed. I think I told them that it wasn't something that everyone agreed about.
Over the 80's and 90's while I attended and worked at camp I watched it become more conservative and closed minded. Part of the can be accounted for with my maturing and becoming more aware but a large part of it was giving most of the authority at that camp to a very domineering closed minded man, because it was a lot of work and he was the only one willing to do it. His own household was in shambles, none of his own children were regularly faithful and yet we allowed him to set policy for a couple hundred kids every summer. It reminds me of the verses about how to pick an elder...
Oh I also got in trouble for encouraging my older girl campers to not shave their legs for the week of camp. I wanted them to consider why they did these beauty rituals. It was part of our putting the world aside for a week theme. (I also asked them to give up secular music and reading for the week of camp) I was told that I should be teaching them to join the crowd not go against it. Most of these kids were the only member of their church that attended their school. I saw it as my obligation to teach them how to stand alone in the crowd of opposing opinions and ideas.
So, in short, yes I would not only support this camp, but if possible I would work at it.

Patty
St. Louis, MO

:::posted by Patty on 9/25/2002 06:41:28 PM

I prefer to send my son to YMCA camps. The church camps here seem to be run by the most conservative members. The one time we sent our son -- two years ago -- he came home with the most amazing collection of wierd doctrine that I have heard anywhere -- and having owned and operated a Christian book store for 17 years, I thought I had heard just about everything! We also teach him the Bible at home rather than put him through the anxiety of unteaching him things he learns in Bible School. But this gives me an idea ... Wouldn't it be great if a group of parents organised a gender equitable backyard Bible school or overnight Bible camp and even advertised it as such to the Christian community at large. What a minstry that would be!

:::posted by Carmen on 9/25/2002 12:29:20 PM

On a smaller scale than universities, I believe that has happened with the summer youth camp our church supports. The previous director was allowing the girl campers too much inclusion. Girls were praying in the evening devotionals. Women teachers were speaking in chapel in the morning. (For heaven's sake!) The board, rather than address their discomfort with the loosening of traditions, allowed a sort of coup to happen to oust the free-thinking director. The new director is not only conservative, but also is cold and unkind. I know many, including me, who won't send their kids now. But this director is less controversial. Unkind is better than non-traditional. I believe the board is afraid of losing finacial support if girl campers and counselors gain too much freedom. I send my kids to sports camp instead. Sadly, Carmen, you've hit another nail squarely on the head. Here's a clear example of money being the root of evil.
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/25/2002 09:31:19 AM

Ok, so now anyone who is reading can tell that gender-justice is not an organised conspiracy. Most of us have been of this view for a long, long time. I don't think travel has much to do with it. Most of the churches around San Diego are full of well-traveled military families and, generally, they seem quite conservative. In fact, there are very few places in the world where one can see women worshiping with men in egalitarian unity. If the church of Christ will just have a breakthrough I think our own little denomination is our best hope. There is growth beneath the surface. I would like to discuss one reason that I believe limits progress -- quite obvious, but still one that we have not discussed -- money and institutional dependency. I have some experience working with development and alumni relations with a major university. Someone mentioned earlier that if a univeristy like ACU would take a stand, then others will follow. I think this is true. But the financial risk is too great for institutions that depend on donations from alumni and the board of trustees. You can only shake these people up so much before they get disgusted and break away. Just this year a catholic university in town put up a poster of a classic nude sculpture to advertise an art exhibit. A board member said "take it down" and the $1,000 poster came down the same day. Every church has to deal with the money dependency issue on it's own level. I know that one church I attend is financially dependent on many members who just don't care that scripture supports (or demands) gender justice, they will leave and their dollars with them if anyone in authority seriously questions the current tradtions. I know there is a growing movement toward house churches. Perhaps this will be the only way immediate change can come.

:::posted by Carmen on 9/25/2002 02:22:49 AM

Well, I'm not one of the nomads, but my home congregation near D.C. is full of them. We have lots of turnover with military and government workers - and that's on top of the usual transfers of church-hoppers. Julie and I have been in the opposite position of having to "enlighten" new members over and over again. For example, our congregation had a Sunday morning Bible study about women's role in the Church six or seven years ago. The class was taught by the elders. The conclusion was that women in the early church had more freedom than women in our church. But sadly, our leadership was afraid to take any action based on that conclusion. For two years after that class, nothing changed. By the time we finally had the first woman teaching a mixed adult class, about a third of the congregation was new and had not participated in the study. So there was fallout again.

But a couple of weeks ago, a newer member asked me to help her study what the Bible says about women. We've spent hours together in study and discussion. I may soon be leading a small group discussion on the freedom of the Spirit. It's is exciting to have people ask me to talk about it for a change instead of people asking my to shut up about it.

I wanted to tell all y'all Texans that even though we're in Maryland, we do have the Texas flag hanging in the front of our congregation - really! Julie has coordinated "Ribbon Banners" for our church family. These are two banners that are made entirely of long ribbons collected from each family. Each family or individual selects a ribbon that represents themselves. Together, they make a beautiful tapestry. Anyway, one of our families decorated their red ribbon with the Lone Star flag. So this Sunday, I saw it again and smiled, thinking of all of you - excuse me, y'all. We'd so love to have you visit us out east.

Thanks again for all the smiles and support.
Love,
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/24/2002 09:38:25 AM

Greetings and Salutations...

I am back from the Green Mountains of Vermont refreshed. I have spent the last half hour catching up on the posts over the last week. While I missed my new found friends here - I was really enjoying the quiet and solitude of God's Creation.

Following the pattern of earlier posts, I live in Cleveland, OH. I am 41, divorced and remarried. No children. I teach Performance Management for a large midwestern regional bank. I was a fulltime minister for 11 years. I serve in an interim capacity now when a congregation is between ministers.

Jeff

:::posted by Jeff on 9/24/2002 09:36:23 AM

I'm another young'in: a 26 year-old single male, never-married minister/student (and a philosopher and a gentleman, too!) :) My mother tells me I've been raisin' a ruckus since the day I was born; I started out sqawling at the world and haven't stopped yet. I could rightly pass for a civilized Bostonian, especially since nobody thinks I sound like what they think a Texan is supposed to sound like. But I am routinely betrayed by certain words like "y'all" and "ruckus" and "over-yonder" that just won't wander harmlessly out of my vocabulary and invariably come out of my mouth with a slight drawl. That, and as my church up here now knows, I can country line-dance "purty darn good". (which, incidently, is something I picked up at Lipscomb University of all places, after I left Texas.)

I suppose I first became interested in this issue in high school, though it wasn't until college that I really started to put several things together. I grew up at a more "progressive" CofC where in our youth group, girls always at least prayed, read scripture, or led songs. I could see that this practice didn't quite match up with what we did "in the auditorium". So I started asking questions (and the rest is history, as they say). And my best Christian friends were from school, and all were non-CofC. We had a truly ecumenical lunch table, and that was essential at a large public school. (I wasn't surprised to see my alma matter on ABC nightly news about 4 years ago after there had been a major drug ring busted there!) I learned more about grace from a young woman in my high school choir who was raised charismatic and wound up a Methodist than I ever learned from any male or CofC friends. But, as others have mentioned, I see gender justice as one of several issues related to the larger question of what it means to work for a more just world as a whole.

Julie, I love Garrison Keillor! Maybe I'll have to consider relocating to Lake Woebegon.

Blessings,
Chad
Brookline, MA

:::posted by Chad on 9/21/2002 10:02:00 AM

Patty - One does not have to go to Bible college or have a degree in Bible to preach. My husband is an excellent teacher/preacher - and I am not biased! - and his Master's was in in Business Mgmt. Just last year he received his PhD in Christian Counseling. The fact that he is not a product of a specific school's theology has been a plus for him. This might be one of those cases where a woman would have to have the degree in order to be taken seriously. There are many women already preaching (a former BSF "lecturer" comes to mind), but, because there are no men present, it isn't considered preaching. Go figure. (And go preach!)

TO ALL the nomads represented here, a thought/question: Do the transitions in our lives from place to place grow us into a more flexible people? Every place is different in climate, in culture, in lingo, in attitude. Either we adapt, or we're unhappy and miserable people, longing to return to that which we know.

Loving you all more intimately today,
Vicki

:::posted by Vicki on 9/20/2002 08:04:16 PM

I guess we have moved from the talent portion to the short answer. :-)
I'll add to my bio started earlier.
I am 31 years old and have been married for just over a year to a wonderful man who God was saving for me. I grew up in Connecticut, even attended college there except for one year at Northeaster Christian Junior College, a now defunct c of c school that most of the country has never heard of. Attended the same small congregation for most of my life a church my parents helped start when I was about 5. The great thing about our congregation was that we were mostly 1st generation in the c of c and those who were further entrenched were college professors with a good grasp of studying to learn. We (as a church) approached scripture with a pretty open mind. We also went through a period of about 6 years without a paid minister. The men of the congregation taught all the classes and did half of the preaching, the other half was from men from other congregations that we could get to come for a stipend. No one at our church had a bible degree and yet the preaching was good most of the time. It also meant that anyone who was willing and able to do anything outside of the assemply, was not only allowed but encouraged. At the time that the ministers left the eldership also disolved. For 11+ years all decisions have been made in congregational meetings held every 6 weeks. The only thing that ever made me feel like I couldn't speak at a meeting like that was my age when I was younger.
It is interesting to me that one of the main reasons given by my father (a former elder and still very much a leader) for not studying gender issues is the small size of the congregation (40-50 members), and yet those of you in large congregations can attest to how difficult it is to deal with this issue, and even get it noticed, because of how large your congregation is. Ultimately I don't know that size has that much to do with it. It just brings up different issues.
A couple of years after college I moved to St Louis to train to be a missionary and return to the north east, an important mission field. Instead God called me to remain in St. Louis and work with an inner-city ministry, which I did for several years. I learned some valuable lessons about working as a team in a ministry. Mostly about what doesn't work.
It has taken me years to acknowledge that what I really want and am called to be is to be a preacher. I have been preaching on a small scale to most of the people in my life since I was quite young. Not always effectively, but always passionatly. For various reasons I have not gone to school yet for it and can't at the present time, but it is in the plans for my future before too very long. Those of you who want scholarships for cofc women going into ministry get working on them. I'll need one in about 2008 or so. :-)
I love hearing about all of you and what got you to where you are.
The experience that catipulted me into this issue was when I was teaching a college bible study in my home and a minister from another congregation chastized me for it saying that it was not only wrong for me to be leading a bible study with men attending but that the leadership of my congregation was also wrong to allow it. (they encouraged it and even gave us a budget) When we became an official campus group he refused to let me be the president of it (when I was voted to it) since I am a woman but I could be the chairperson. He is another story, but I am thankful for his outrageousness, it made me aware of the contradictions in my own life and brought me to where I am today.

Patty Lacoss-Arnold
St. Louis, MO

:::posted by Patty on 9/20/2002 07:13:48 PM

I guess I'm one of the young'uns. I'm 24. In addition to Mass. where I've lived for a year (we were driving our UHaul trailer here on Sept. 11), I've lived in CA, OR, and AR. Sorry to insult the Texans. When I went to Harding, every year at convocation when the Texas flag was brought in (they brought in flags from all of the states and countries that students came from) the Texans always raised a huge ruckus. Then everyone else would hiss. It was a yearly tradition. Texans are either proud of their state or full of themselves. I guess it depends on how you look at it. But, since I am outnumbered, I'll try to keep the Texas insults to a minimum.

:::posted by Indie on 9/20/2002 06:09:59 PM

Friends,

Wow! When I suggested that we all identify ourselves by city I didn't expect to hear so many biographical sketches. I love reading all your stories. And, Tom, your description of "y'all" was exactly right, and your post renews my hope for the survival of civilization. If I ask, "How are y'all doin'?" and you are the only person in the room, then I am indeed asking about your family, and expect you to tell me if your dog had pups or your Mama's feelin' poorly.

Now I suppose I should identify myself a little better, since you all have been so forthcoming. I was born in Chattanooga (5th generation in the Church of Christ) and grew up in Birmingham, near Houston, in North Alabama, and in western Colorado. After graduating from Lipscomb in 1983, I had a strong sense that my Bible professors had been trying hard to protect me from learning something, and I wanted to find out what they were afraid of. So I attended graduate schools in Cincinnati and Connecticut. Mary Lou moved to Connecticut when we married, since I was still in school. Then we moved to Nashville for her job, to Chicago for her job, and now to North Carolina for my job. At last, we both have jobs we really like in the same area.

We have met wonderful people at various congregations all along the way. In response to some posts, I suppose our interest in the gender justice issue is partly generational, but I think maybe also my own thinking has been influenced by the fact that I grew up in several states. I think that experience affected me by teaching me that "we've always done it that way" simply doesn't fly as an argument for anything, because in the next state over they always did it some other way. The more I have been exposed to different kinds of people with different ways of practicing their Christianity, the more I've had to think for myself what I should do in light of the gospel, and the less I've been able to fall back on habit or local tradition. Teaching in a Roman Catholic university and now in an AME Zion seminary have no doubt contributed to the process, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I have, I think, the best job in the world--I get paid to study and talk about the Bible. I have been fortunate to teach in institutions that have not been looking over my shoulder to check for doctrinal correctness. Surely one of the things most harmful to faith is when religious leaders shut down discussion because a question seems unorthodox. If we don't give one another room to ask questions, how will each generation learn what they believe?

Grace be with you all,

Christopher Hutson
Salisbury, NC

:::posted by Christopher on 9/20/2002 05:25:51 PM

Ann, I love you! Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/20/2002 04:52:14 PM

Hi Friends,
Sorry for my hiatus. Life kind of spun out of control once the school year started. Also, the struggle for gender equity has been reheating and taking up a fair amount of my energy here. But all efforts have been positive. Things are getting pretty exciting around here. But I've been too tired to do more than listen to your conversation for a while. I really need the re-charging I'm counting on from the upcoming ZOE conference.
I am 37 and live in Bowie, Maryland with Julie. I've lived here all my life. I don't know how y'all can move around so much! Pretty much my entire life has been at the Bowie Church of Christ. In fact, the building was built in the same year I was born. During college I (usually) attended CofC's. For 3 or 4 months I left and visited other churches in town but came back. I guess I'd rather be a rebel than a refugee.
Tom, I'm with you on the beauty pagent: if I have to shave my legs, I'm not entering!
It's good to be back.
Love,
Ann

:::posted by Ann on 9/20/2002 03:41:50 PM

Vicki - you forgot stubborn, opinionated, and choco-holic (not always in that order) and you’re are wrong on the beautiful thing, you are beautiful!

I am 38, 39 next month, divorced and re-married, my children are 18, 16, and 14 and a 15-year-old stepdaughter, and at every opportunity, a 2-1/2 year old great-niece. My 18 year old enlisted in the Navy yesterday. Peter is my favorite apostle, and my favorite verse is every verse that says in one form or another, "LORD, YOU ARE MY ROCK!"

Grace!
Shell

:::posted by Shelly on 9/20/2002 12:39:06 PM

Wiley,
I knew from your past posts that you were near Granbury, which is why I mentioned it specifically. I know of those towns, but moved away from the area (Whitney) when I was two. Preachers' families may not move quite at the rate of military families, but it tends to be up there.

Shelly,
As one who spent most of my formative years in the South, and as an amateur linguist to boot (a dangerous combination), I think it's more like "you" (or "yuh") is specifically singular ("how're yuh doin'?"), "y'all" is a collective case that includes the person being addressed and his/her immediate family ("how're y'all doin'?"), and "all y'all" is a plural form that draws in everyone in hearing range ("How are all y'all?"). But, your milage may vary. Oh, and I'm 42.

Back on track, it strikes me that so many of you (including me) have lived in a lot of different places. I wonder what impact that has on where you stand on gender justice. What does that mean for prospects of change? Traveling seems to help in general, but I know some significant exceptions from my missionary kid days. How can we open peoples eyes to the broader perspective?

I know for me that living in different parts of the US and Africa and traveling in Europe has had a significant impact in opening my eyes to divergences of opinion on this and many other issues. In Arkansas, "mixed-bathing" (sounds so much worse than "gender integrated swimming") was considered a really bad thing, and certainly not something that churches would be involved in. In California, our congregation one night rented the city pool for a swimming fellowship.

-Tom

:::posted by TWD on 9/20/2002 12:30:06 PM

Shelly - A little Texas grammar lesson; Y'all is singular. All y'all is plural.

I know it isn't nice to ask people how old they are, but I thought it would be interesting to know the age spans. Some are under the impression that this is a "young" women's thing, others that it is a fallout from those of the '70's. I'll be brave and go first. I'm 48, 49 next month. My kids are 14 and almost 11, which makes some think I am younger.

More useless personal trivia: I've lived in central FL, VA, and OK, as well as previously mentioned WNY. I am divorced, widowed and married, in that order. I was raised in CoC, but took a side trip with Independent Baptists, and a long walk on the wild side. When my husband died, I gave my life and my son to the God of All Comfort. I contracted Hepatitis C from transfusions following a car/motorcycle accident in Tampa, FL, April Fools' Day, 1977. I am a non-responder to Rebetron, and depend solely on the God of All Healing to keep me ticking. I have a love/hate relationship with being in full-time ministry. I love ministry, but hate the fishbowl. Guess I'm just a rebel at heart. I am at the Tulsa Workshop every year. I am not, nor have I ever been, beautiful, talented or athletic. I love being in East Texas, and I love my church family. Come visit us sometime at the North Lindale Church (of Christ).

Well, that's all of my baggage! Write more about yourselves. I'm fascinated by - all y'all!
- Vicki

:::posted by Vicki on 9/20/2002 11:42:52 AM

I live outside of Walnut Springs, TX, which is 12 miles north of Meridian, 12 miles south of Glen Rose, 10 east of Iredell, and 10 miles west of Morgan. In other words, we are VERY rural. Watched the deer and turkey out our back doors (large glass style) this morning!
I am also 33 miles south of Granbury and we are members of the Granbury CoC and I'll bet Tom probably knows every one of those towns I named.

My wife and I both work at the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station (one of Texas' two nuclear powered electric generating plants between Glen Rose and Granbury).

A more complete write up (along with photos of us, among other things) can be found at http://www.clarksons.org.

Oh, and I have absolutely know idea if we are related to Ms. Kelly Clarkson along the way (suspect we may be at some remote point)but it's nice to see a a very talented Clarkson in the news!!!

Wiley

:::posted by Wiley on 9/20/2002 10:56:34 AM

Don't let Vicki fool you, she's just an ol' (notice I DID NOT SAY OLD) country girl at heart! I'm her sister, Shelly. I'm in INDY where her roots are. I've lived everywhere from Phoenix to Charlotte and the barrier Islands outside Charleston. Talent, huh, usually mine is opening my mouth before engaging my brain!

Nice to "meet" ya'all!!

S.

:::posted by Shelly on 9/20/2002 09:54:15 AM

Near Frederick, MD, about 60 miles north of Washington and 60 miles west of Baltimore. Born in Granbury, TX. Got here via Arkansas, Tanzania (East Africa), Ghana (West Africa), New Jersey and San Diego County CA. Semi-reformed preacher/missionary kid. Never entered any beauty contests, though. I guess my legs were too hairy.

-Tom

:::posted by TWD on 9/20/2002 09:40:12 AM

As long as I can wear my Gardenweb.com t-shirt over the swimsuit... and the shorts with all the pockets for my bandana, garden tools and cell phone.
Sorry, my post about Tyler made perfect sense to me: In Texas-miles, Lindale and Tyler are in the same neighborhood. East Texas is unique as neighborhoods go.
(my gardening obsession is in view on my Yahoo photos - Look at one of the pond albums
http://photos.yahoo.com/hocndoc
(Ignore the pictures of my beautiful daughter's wedding)
Beverly

:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 11:56:36 PM

Swimsuits? Scary!

ALL Y'ALL seem like pen pals now. I think I will get that map. Maybe you won't seem so far away.
-v.

:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 11:46:36 PM

God's gift of humor is so refreshing. I have laughed tonight catching up with the posts.
I live in Bowie, Maryland. It is a suburb of Washington, DC. I grew up around DC also but have lived other places inbetween.
Indie, be careful what you say or you may not win Miss Congeniality. Those Texans can be tough.
Lance, I am dying to see the baton routine. Do you use fire?
Chad, you could do a segment of This Old Theological House in Garrison Keillor style. I think you would be good at that.
Are we doing the swimsuit competition?
I love you guys! grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/19/2002 09:51:53 PM

Ok, Y'ALL...I'm living proof that one can be a native Texan by birth and a New Englander at heart. I think I'll lay off the batons, since I'm sure Lance is better at that than I am. Maybe I'll try carpentry...

Chad Smith
Brookline, MA
(by way of Dallas, TX and Nashville, TN--I keep moving progressively east: next stop, Iceland!)

:::posted by Chad on 9/19/2002 09:10:21 PM

I have to confess - I'm not a REAL Texan! I'm really a born and bred Yankee. I grew up in Indianapolis, and spent 7 years in western NY's finger lakes region. But I can say "f'yont to" ("if you want to" to the rest of the world!) with the best of 'em!

Makes me want to get a big wall map with little colored pins!

:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 08:45:58 PM

Do you want our current location or where our roots are?
I'm from North-eastern Connecticut. (bet you texans didn't know it was even big enough to mention which part. :-)

Patty Lacoss-Arnold
St. Louis, Missouri

:::posted by Patty on 9/19/2002 07:07:46 PM

Imagine that. You mean I've been fraternizing with Texans! :)
Indie Davis
Boston, Massachusetts

:::posted by Indie on 9/19/2002 07:00:35 PM

Vicki,
Both my kids were born in Tyler, Texas and I'm a proud graduate of Tyler Junior College and the University of Texas at Tyler (1986). Moma and Daddy live in Athens, now, because of a coincidence, they moved there about the same time Larry and I moved to Tyler. We could have run into each other, in the last bastion of Bubba-dom, way back when! (I hope I'm not offending anyone, but it really is Bubbadom, and proud of it, sometimes.)

Carmen, thank you for your prayers.

Beverly Nuckols
New Braunfels, Texas (North of San Antonio)

:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 06:54:38 PM

I'll be the next contestant:

Lance Pape
West Islip, NY (Long Island)

I haven't settled on a routine for the talent segment yet, but I'm leaning toward batons.

:::posted by Lance on 9/19/2002 05:49:14 PM

Responding to Christopher's recent post, and feeling a little like a contestant in a beauty pageant:

Vicki Cox
Lindale, Texas! : )

(Not to worry. I'll get in my 50,000 words later!)

:::posted by Vicki on 9/19/2002 03:30:28 PM

Sisters and Brothers,

I haven't posted for a while, but I do check in from time to time and read all of your notes with pleasure.

Lisa asked how we might reach those "on the bubble." My first instinct was to say that this very forum is designed partly to reach those folks. Many visitors to the site may not post to this list, but all are able to read our comments. I think and hope that some readers who have not had the experience of hearing a woman teach a Bible class or preach may benefit from the experience of reading many of the insights of women on this list. They may be affected by the consternation, frustration, humility and grace that are constantly expressed by both men and women on this list. I hope this reading experience will help folks see that the question is wide-spread in our congregations, that it is not limited to that one woman in their local congregation who keeps asking the questions. To that end, I would like to encourage all of you to include your city and state along with your signature at the end of each post. Casual readers should be able to see at a glance that we are carrying on a coast-to-coast conversation.

But, second, Patty reported how her friend visited this forum and was turned off by it. Alas, the forum won't have the desired effect on every reader. So to that end, I encourage all of you to take advantage of our "Readings" section. Note especially the sections on "getting your feet wet." Consider purchasing a spare copy or two of whatever book you have found most helpful so you can offer it to someone who is "on the bubble." With all those copies of Rowland's book floating around out there, you never know when one of them will find its target. Or consider donating a few books to your congregation's library. And, certainly, keep recommending this site.

Thanks to all of your for your interesting conversation.

Grace be with you,

Christopher Hutson,
Salisbury, North Carolina

:::posted by Christopher on 9/19/2002 02:10:41 PM

Beverly, I'm afraid that you're right about the church at large not being ready. From my reading, the story of the Bible is not about God, it is the epic saga of the archetypal Man and Woman. God is the storyteller/matchmaker who agonzies with the lovers compelling them through every influence and tutoring them in the way of One over many. And as the divine storyteller, God takes on their struggles as his own ... becoming Sin, leaving Paradise, like the woman in the garden, He suffers the rejection of his beloved Jerusalem and (like the Woman) opens Himself up to blood and pain in order to give Jerusalem a New Birth. At the cross, Mary and John bring full circle the Man and Woman at the Tree in the Garden. If we think in terms of One in the way we conduct every aspect of our lives, then differences are peripheral. But we are not ready for that. The idea of the Bible being one story rather than many is too big and so we break it up into little books of rules and protocol for "daily living". Beverly, I have been praying for you ever since I read your annoucement on the Grace Centered board. You are in the protection of a God who knows your story. And you're right. Violence against women is deeply entrenched in psychological and cultural angst promoted by a corrupt understanding of the One. The church has the healing solution to the world's problems but we will not even look at it to heal ourselves.

:::posted by Carmen on 9/19/2002 12:09:45 PM

Thanks for the names, Julie!

I agree that we need to watch for contemplation, precontemplation, etc. And support our sisters when they seem ready. But, every chance we get, we need to educate.

The "principle" of the scripture vs. the letter is accepted by many men and women when it comes to so many passages that could be considered commands, such as those on foot washing and hair braiding. We should emphasize this where appropriate, but I'm still convinced that the scripture is clearly *not* as clear as we've been taught. And understanding the original words as well as the intent could wipe away any the delemmas of 1 Cor 11 vs. 14, and the leadership roles of Phoebe and Junia vs. 1 Tim 2.

For example, over on that other board (Berean Spirit) I posted 1 Tim 2:11, 12 with "peaceable" (as in verse 2 in the NIV) for "hesuchios/hesuchias." This simple change - using the word/connotation used by the same, respected scholars, in translation from the Greek to the English completely changes the way the passages read. In the same way, there is a strong case that "usurp authority" is more appropriate than "exercise authority" because of the date of the letter. How many would risk implying that the letter to Timothy is a second century document when confronted with the evidence that during Paul's lifetime, the word ("authentein") implied much more than trying to be a leader.

The same goes for 1 Cor14:34,35. If these verses are read as parallel to the examples in the rest of the chapter, as supported by the words Paul chose, then it's more clear that Paul was concerned with fit and orderly worship, and had no intention of keeping the women silent.

(And I'm aware that I'm not doing what I say "we" must do. But, our church just isn't ready. When he was teaching 1 Cor this last spring, Larry handed out copies of the book " I Permit Not a Woman" by Rowland to our elders, preachers, and entire Sunday Bible class and got virtually no feedback. He and I sounded out the preacher and a couple of elders and the consensus was "not now." And I'll never forget the absolute silence followed by *not* being included in the "Ladies class" prayer after I asked. Because I mentioned that I believed that our culture of teaching our girls to be submissive and our boys to expect it added to the violence against women in the world. (The night after I was invited to be on the National Advisory Committee on Violence Against Women) I asked for prayer, and was only included in the "If I've forgotten any one, Lord." Only one woman spoke to me after the prayer. So, I backed off or ran away.) (This sounds like whining, but, I'm going to post it, anyway, 'cause I feel the need to explain.)
Beverly

:::posted by Beverly on 9/19/2002 12:59:31 AM

I would like to add a few thoughts to the idea that Katie hit on about doing the groundwork in a congregation. In addition to the items she mentioned, it seems important to teach about the nature of scripture. What is God's word trying to tell us? What is eternally relevant and what is historically particular? My husband and I are co-teaching a class on the nature of scripture. We are using God's Holy Fire from the ACU press and Fee and Stewart's book How to Read the Bible for all It's Worth. There were six of our 14 elders in there tonight. We discussed what we bring as people to the scripture that influence/determine our presuppositions. Asking, "What is this passage saying in the there and then? What does it say in the here and now?" is critical. Examining our presuppositions seems essential to any change in gender roles and limitations. I am convinced that many Christians do not know what scripture teaches. They know what they have been taught about was scripture teaches. Sometimes the teaching is right on the mark. Sometimes it's in error. I don't want people to believe what I teach them. I want to believe what the Bible teaches them! The right questions must be asked of Scripture before the right answers will come.

I think that possibly doing the groundwork from this position brings down the defensiveness of others. I very much doubt that this is always true, but is at least sometimes true. Think of it with this analogy: If the goal is to get into the house, you can go in through the front door, back door, or a window. If you cannot get in through the front door, it is a better use of energy to try a different door or the window. Ringing the doorbell *should* work. But, if it doesn't work, stop ringing the bell, try a different point of entry.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Blessings,
Lisa

:::posted by Lisa on 9/18/2002 10:16:23 PM

Wow! You've all been typing like crazy! Just a quick note to Beverly...make a point to meet my very good friends at Sunset Ridge...Steve and Kim Gilbert. They are wonderful and you will feel immediately at home with them. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/18/2002 10:01:52 PM

Mary Lou responds to Lance's evangelism point in a most interesting way, talking about women who are already baptized, church-going Christians, and therefore usually outside the scope of our evangelistic efforts. She reminds me of a book on my shelf, Walter Brueggemann's "Biblical Perspectives on Evangelism." Brueggemann persuasively argues (from the Old Testament, of course) that the church must first evangelize -- that is, share good news -- with its own folks before it goes out to convert the masses, and that this re-evangelism of one another is a never-ending process. We gather on Sundays to testify to God's work in our lives and our world -- to evangelize each other! -- and of course, we have a primary obligation to evangelize our own children. When the church behaves badly toward its own members -- when we make Christ's call to discipleship sound like bad news to those who are already on the road -- we are not fulfilling our primary evangelistic responsibility.

I mention Mary Lou's (Brueggemann's) idea because it dovetails with Lisa's (Prucheska's) five steps to change -- precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance, which I like very much. What I'm trying to get at is that gender justice is not an isolated idea -- we are asking our churches to go through these five steps over and over again with each new step in the road toward something as radical as "breaking down the dividing wall between us," Eph. 2:14. There are so many assumptions one has to change before one can get to the essential nature of the gender question. One example would be, you might have to change what you mean by "evangelism." Yes, we have to consider those outside the Christian faith who can't comprehend our inequitable practices. But are we not obliged first and forever to make sure that our church offers good news to our wives, our daughters, our mothers, our sisters?

This is surely a fuzzy beginning to the answer Joe's looking for: how do we make progress in our congregations on this issue? I would think a preacher or teacher in such a church would want to back up from the issue of gender and see if the groundwork has been laid. Is this congregation ready for the God of Surprises, the God Who Almost Never Does What You Expect God To Do? Has this congregation learned from scripture that God identifies with, chooses, lifts up, privileges those poor souls that the world exploits, takes advantage of, disrespects? Is this congregation humble enough to be fluid and malleable, clay in the hands of a Potter who sometimes breaks it down in order to build it up? Does this congregation believe in resurrection, as in, you (we) have to die in order to experience the fullness of God's power and love? (Or is this congregation afraid to die? lose numbers? lose friends? lose money? lose status?)

These are markers of a congregational identity that can be developed over time so that it is ready when the Spirit huffs and puffs and blows its gender hierarchy down.

peace -- Katie

p.s. Joe, the moderator of this forum, and his wife Laura, are expecting a baby in March. That's what Patty's congratulations are for. I'm going to be an aunt, again!

:::posted by Katie on 9/18/2002 08:21:33 PM

I personally directed a friend who is on the bubble (although she won't admit it) to this site. Unfortunatly she misunderstood what I told her and only read the message board stuff. It unfortunatly didn't make the best impression, but she isn't to where most of us are, yet. I wanted her to read the articles. She is one of those women who is caught in the middle. Not convinced that it is right and not convinced that it is wrong. She knows that I want to be a preacher and has never attempted to talk me out of it. She currently attends a congregation that is more restrictive than she beleives in and has found herself in the uncomfortable position of defending gender justice, (to a very small degree).
I honestly don't know where to send her to discuss it. Most, if not all of us here, have made up our minds and aren't really discussing the why's and why nots. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
Joe- first congradulations! I just got word from your sister. I want to add to your question unfortunatly I don't have any answers. I am currently drafting a letter to the elders of our congregation explaining our (mine and my husband's) understanding of scripture in reguards to gender. I know they often here from those opposed to any participation of women when there is any hint of it and I want to add my voice to those who are pro gender justice. I have been heartened to learn that many, many members (more women than men, go figure) are ready for some version of gender justice in our congregation. (for whatever reason preachers and elders is a sticking point for most people). Including (reportedly) the preacher's wife. I know at least one of the elders is also for it but not all the way. Ultimately I believe that talking is the only way to make a difference. It was what changed my father from completely opposed to it to now completely in favor. (well except for elders, he's just not sure on that point and has an interesting theory of an early christian office of widow being comparable, but female apostles are just fine :-)). Although his small congregation in CT is unwilling to tackle the issue they are completely willing to have fellowship with the Stamford church when it is possible and my parents have been at the front of efforts to keep the local christian camp from drawing lines of fellowship on these issues.

Mary Lou- I personally haven't met women like that. I am sure that they exist, and perhaps I just don't ask the right questions. Our church is pretty active and willing to let women do pretty much anything that doesn't involve sunday morning. We organize and lead lots of things, just not worship services. Some comittees are all women (our annual church family encampment comes to mind). Not by design, just because it happened that way. I have been blessed by going to small churches I guess. Small churches can't afford to only have men active and doing the work. That is a luxury that only larger congregations can afford.

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/18/2002 06:04:52 PM

Carmen is right, it is on everyone's mind, but some of those that we would identify as being "on the bubble," do not self-identify in that way. There are women out there who feel intensely frustrated with their church experience but they have not been in an environment where anything different is even an option, so they don't think of it in those terms. This goes to Lance's point about evangelism. One of the saddest experiences I have had in this regard was nearly ten years ago. We were living in Nashville and I was talking to a friend there, a woman my age (thirtyish at the time), a woman who is the daughter of an elder at a prominent congregation, and we were talking about how we just didn't feel connected or involved at church, and she said, "the only reason I go is so I won't lose the habit of it." I was stunned that she would say that but I understood where she was coming from. She's a wife and a mother, and it would not be acceptable for her not to go to church, but she did not feel she was getting anything out of it.

I have spoken to many other women who tell me where they are attending church and when I ask them what they like about it, what programs have been meaningful to them, they reply to the effect of, "we mainly go for the children's programs." There is a whole generation of women out there who hold responsible jobs and make decisions at work and fully participate as equal partners in their marriages, who go to churches where they are silenced. And we wonder why we are having trouble keeping this generation in the churches of Christ, why they are wandering off into other denominations or giving up on church altogether. I don't know how to reach them other than by allowing them a place to see that it's not like that everywhere and you can take scripture seriously and take Paul's letters seriously and ALSO allow women full participation in worship. For some of them, the light will go on.

--Mary Lou

:::posted by Mary Lou on 9/18/2002 03:41:02 PM

Someone asked about forums for reaching those on the bubble. In my experience women seem to open up about injustice and inequity in the church at women's retreats. Don't get me wrong, it is never on the agenda. The discussions usually come up in the cabins at night or during free-time and do not involve more than an handfull of women and are never a planned event. They just happen. Which clues me in that it is on everyone's mind all of the time.

:::posted by Carmen on 9/18/2002 02:08:37 AM

Wow! The board is great today! I don't know about everyone else but I've just been busy ... checking in but too lazy to respond. Patti's post, in the context of this particular community, seemed to me to be about love. How each of us are judged first by the measure of love we are capable of, and how the truth of justice and equity must first meet the demands of love. I agree with that. However, I completely understand Vicki's response as well. How are we supposed to experience or teach strength in love detached from all that is unjust? A Chrisitan woman friend once told me that patiently and quietly suffering the injustice of being a woman in the church of Christ was actually a blessing because it fostered spiritual attribute of humility. I do not believe that Christ called me to brood over my pettiness with masochistic self-disgust and take pride in it to boot. Yes, it is true that humility is a necessary precondition of faith. But if we crown ourselves as martyrs that is not humility it is a farce of humility and then we will not have the faith of Christ. So how do we balance truth with love? The call to gender-justice is an imperfect beginning in the work of reconcilliation. The work of gender-justice requires intense work in humility on the part of all concerned even if some are only working toward an aesthetic for the purpose of evangelism. Then, hopefully, time will perfect us in faith toward the new reality of reconcilliation.

:::posted by Carmen on 9/18/2002 01:54:00 AM

You know, I guess what bugs me the most is that we're not talking about non-essentials here. One can sit on the bubble when deciding whether or not it's OK to sing contemporary songs, clap when singing contemporary songs, or having a praise team lead contemporary songs. But one can’t sit on the bubble on this one. We're talking about the sin of prejudice, the sin of prejudging someone's acceptance by God based ONLY on their physical appearance the moment they pop out of the womb. And it seems to be a totally acceptable practice. Prejudice is sin, whether talking about race or gender. There is enough to read on this site alone to help one get off the bubble! Go to the church links. There are complete studies available. Don't sit on the bubble. It's lukewarm up there.

:::posted by Vicki on 9/18/2002 12:11:14 AM

I just thought y'all were all really busy.

We're starting to get a few calls here and a note there from members of the church we left, after we've been gone 3 weeks. Most are confused about why we left. I guess I was pretty good -or too good - at keeping my mouth shut.

Sunday, we visited the Sunset Ridge Church of Christ in San Antonio. A woman made the announcements - before the opening prayer, though. And there *were* women serving the Lord's Supper - one was pregnant! Otherwise, the service seemed like a normal church service (now that I'm used to the lack of piano). The people were very friendly, and I think we'll go back for Sunday School this week. There seem to be women teaching the adult classes. I just wish it weren't so far away. It will be hard to make it for Wednesday nite, for example. I will miss that.

Lance, your first post today was incredible. And your second makes me jealous. I would love to be in a situation where I didn't have to notice because there's nothing to notice. Enjoy, and God bless.

As a matter of fact, may God bless us all!
Beverly Nuckols

:::posted by Beverly on 9/18/2002 12:01:16 AM

Lance,

I totally agree that offense is inevitable. Beyond any doubt, Jesus was offensive to the religious leaders of his day and he certainly did not appear to hold back due to concerns about their toes. I remember the future when I hear the pain and impatience of others. The women in the church's future will probably be bolder and more impatient. This goes to the evangelism piece. We will lose people. We will lose talent. We're losing talent now whether it is sitting quietly in the pew or exiting to a more accepting environment.

Here is a challenge for me. I mentally step back and look at our church as a system. I visualize those in the middle. The "Change maybe somedays." They seem calm and open. I feel that way some days. I see those on both ends. The "Change nows" and the "Change nevers". The "change nows" have an anxious sense of urgency. I feel that some days. The "change nevers" have an anxious sense of protectiveness. I rarely have this one. I want the calmness of the middle and change all at the same time. That's "wishfullness" rather than "realfullness." I think maybe the mental shift that I need to make is to change my focus on to the "change maybe somedays." The "change never" people kinda drive me crazy. How do you love someone and think "get out of the stone ages!" all at the same time?

Maybe this will be helpful, a psychologist by the name of Prochaska has identified 5 Stages of Change. In a nutshell they are: 1) Precontemplation - as in not thinking about it. 2) Contemplation - as in considering it. 3)Preparation - small steps, small changes. 4) Action - consistently doing it differently over a period of time. 5)maintenance - doing the change differently forever. Prochaska would say that you cannot successfully do action without doing contemplation and prepartion. That makes sense to me. Maybe the first step in changing our churches is in identifying where people are in the Stages. If someome is at precontemplation, they will panic if you are urging action.

Anyway, something to think about, I guess.

Blessings,
Lisa

:::posted by Lisa on 9/17/2002 10:56:51 PM

As Lisa suggests, there is some tension between the two halves of the site’s purpose statement; for now that tension seems to settle in the forum.

I think quite a bit about how the forum discussions must strike those who are undecided and come to the site as part of their decision-making process. My view for now is that giving offense is probably inevitable and that the best we can do is try to make sure that the offense we give is focused on the issue itself and not some distraction from the issue. For example, a good reason to risk offense would be that we are impatient for justice and are effectively giving voice to the pain and sorrow we feel when justice is delayed. A bad reason (hopefully not to dig up and rehash an old issue) might be that we are so tired and battle-worn that we become a little crass in expressing our frustrations. If one lives with this issue long enough, one is going to be guilty of this eventually (mea culpa); but we should try our best to help each other keep it in check.

As for Patty’s post, I know Patty well enough to be sure that she meant well. But, I was feeling a little protective of Vicki, probably because, as I indicated, I bring some baggage to this discussion (i.e. periodic complaints about my “obsession” with this issue being a distraction from what is essential).

This brings up one of the weaknesses of an online community. Most of us only know each other from this one context. There is no way any of you could know (unless I should say) that I preach much more about Philippians 2:5-11 and Matthew 25:31ff than Galatians 3:28 or Romans 16. The last sermon I preached about gender justice was, I think, sometime in the Spring of 2001. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard Katie say anything about gender justice from the pulpit. She has gone out of her way to not let this become “her issue” as a minister. But how could any of you know any of this since our relationships with each are worked out through the filter of this forum. Most of you only know me and Katie as advocates of this one issue. I guess I don’t see how it could very well be any other way. I might wish you peace on 9/11, and Wiley might offhandedly mention that he is going dove hunting, but for the most part we know each other as people who are passionate about gender justice.

As for Lisa’s question about persuasion, the single most persuasive thing I know of is listening to a gifted woman preach. If someone with a soft heart will listen to Katie preach for fifteen minutes, they will never again rest easy in the certainty that the Spirit doesn’t gift women to preach. (No pressure, Kate!)

:::posted by Lance on 9/17/2002 10:05:02 PM

Lisa raises a great question for all of us to ponder and discuss: "How do we persuade gender justice in our own congregations and across the brother/sisterhood?" and "How do we find those on the bubble and persuade them?" Some of you who have "been there and done that" please respond. You can look on the site for several great readings that talk about this specific issue but it would be great to hear from all of you.

:::posted by jch on 9/17/2002 06:23:26 PM

I need to speak up about a couple of concerns:

First, I was surprised (and relieved?) to see Patty's post. I honestly thought that I may have been the one to have placed an offensive and silencing post. Boy, did I ever feel caught. I feel offensive at church because I'm a "feminist" . Offensive here because I'm overwhelmed by other's pain. Maybe I'm offensive because I strive to be a peaceful warrior. I try to stay calm about gender justice because I know me. If I get angry, I can knock people over with my words. Being verbally quick can be both a gift and a vice unless submitted and submitted to God again and again and again....

Secondly, I'm concerned that individuals who are open to change, but are on the bubble may feel unwelcome. Which leads me to this question: What is the primary purpose of this forum? What is the secondary purpose? If the primary purpose is to provide a safe haven, in my experience, it does a good job of that. However, if the primary or even secondary purpose is to persuade church of Christ members who are on the bubble of acceptance of change, then I'm not sure that's happening. Please accept this as loving and from my heart. I hope no one finds offense because absolutely none is intended. Obviously, this forum cannot be all things to all people.

I just re-read the purpose statement which was "mutual support, communication, and edification" (did I get it right?). That sounds more like a safe haven to me. Let me be clear, I think that is great. Here's what I want to know: How do we persuade gender justice in our own congregations and across the brotherhood? How do we find those on the bubble and persuade them?

Blessings,
Lisa

:::posted by Lisa on 9/17/2002 05:42:04 PM

Dear Patty,

Friendly Fire comes to mind.

I confess that I am overly-sensitive on this issue. I guess you could say I have very sore toes, and the least little touch hurts. It’s not just the lack of love from elders and women I considered mentors that brings heartache, but the fact that they are just downright mean! They don’t step on toes, they stomp on them! It seems that stones and spears are thrown from every direction - friend and foe, alike. So I duck. The temptation to pick one up and throw it back is always there. Weary? Yes, I understand weary.

I did a lot of thinking for several days after your post. I needed to be sure that I had not “crossed over”, to be sure that love is still my motivation. It’s always good to listen and think. So I thank you for making me take the time to think.

Know that if God is calling you back into this battle, I welcome you as my comrade.

Thank God for the Gift on the cross that covers us all!
-Vicki

Lance - Your statement "…there can be no love without truth, and no truth without love," is quotable! And the Hallmark card comparison made me laugh out loud. It's so true! Jesus wasn't warm and fuzzy over sin. He lovingly confronted it. (Why is it so hard for us to do the same?)

:::posted by Vicki on 9/17/2002 05:33:02 PM

Lance,

Have you ever wanted to make a comment and just flat didn't know how to word it? Being a moderator on another forum, I usually don't have too much trouble but this time I'm not sure how to go where I want to go without sounding pretty bitter over some of this. I'm afraid if I get too wordy, I will go off on a tangent and write a book!

We have just barely started stepping out of the racist stigma we have carried all these years. Since the 50's and the racism (not to mention the gender issue) that openly existed in almost all white churches, it has taken 50 years to get ACU, along with just a few churches to actually admit to the racism and discriminatory practices, and that's only just been in the last two years. Yet, those same churches/institutions cannot seem to grasp the simple fact of gender discrimination! Just several weeks ago, I heard an elder at our church make the comment regarding being told that the women's class the day before had spent 15 minutes questioning why women can't help serve the Lord's Supper made the statement "that won't happen as long as I'm an elder here"---and we are a multi racial church!!! I literally had to almost bite my tongue off to keep from jumping in his face--which would have obviously been counter productive. Do you really think we stand a chance of even getting a real foothold in just one generation? I'm a fairly optimistic person most of the time, but after knowing about and hearing about the activities in one particular church that was once moving forward (slowly- but moving) until 6 months ago, I have to admit to some pessimism right now. My wife is so mad at that particular congregation's eldership that she won't hardly talk about it! I'm wondering how long it will be before ACU, which seems to be a trend setter institution for a percentage of our congregations, will actually step out and say they have helped foster the gender discrimination issue all these years? Once one domino falls.... We've seen some excellent books that have been published from ACU but they are all on a "flying solo" basis. ACU has been real good at encouraging women to do the graduate level work and try to go into ministry, but they are not real good with the financial aid for women (who need it worse than the men because of future earning power) and the job placement!!! If ACU would come out of the closet, take an official published position, and run a Lectureship with Gender Justice as a/the key topic, it would probably be the key to many churches starting to really study the issue. We might see a target of a generation if that were to happen. Of course, Physics Class teaches for every action there is a reaction, and in this case, since the reaction that would hurt ACU the most would be an expected loss of funding from the traditional sector, I'm not holding my breath for it to happen anytime soon (but I have been wrong before--and I sure hope I am this time)!!!

I guess I've vented enough for right now. Back to fixing computers on my day off (including my wife's). Then maybe a little dove hunting!

:::posted by Wiley on 9/17/2002 04:45:05 PM

I want to begin by apologizing to any and all who thought that I was criticizing you in any way. I was not. If I was criticizing anyone it was myself and confessing my weakness to all of you. I haven't posted much here but I too feel safe here. It is a place where everyone "gets it". I don't feel like I need to explain myself and apparently I assumed that all of you could see inside of my head. :-) Sorry to all of you not granted the "gift of telepathy".
It is because I hold all of you in such high esteem that I posted the importance of loving God and loving others. I belive that it is impossible to follow that and not pursue gender justice. I know that I get caught up in majoring in minors from time to time. I was not accusing any of you of doing that. I do however recognize it as a human weakness and wanted to nudge any of you who were drifting that way. I want for everyone I know to develop a better and better relationship with our Lord and Savior. I was attempting to interject a message that was on my heart that night. I personally need to hear it all the time and hadn't in a while. It was an attempt to affirm to all of you that those who deny gender justice are hurting their brothers and sisters and their relationship with God and in my humble opinion sinning. I felt that it needed to be balanced by the possibility of the converse sin of making that the most important issued.
I will be eternally indebted to the men and women of various churches who have spent years of their lives studying, presenting, convincing and crying so that a road map is already drawn for the rest of us. I have no doubt that God is well pleased by their effort to honor him through this work.
I am further indebted to all of you for giving me the nudge I needed to become active in this issue again and for your wielding of hammers, velvet clothed or otherwise. I laid mine down a couple of years ago out of weariness and have been considering taking it up again lately. That is thanks to all of you.
To be 100% honest, if it weren't for the loving note that I got from Katie today I would have no idea that what I had said was what was being responded to in the previous couple of posts. My intent was to encourage and it came across to many of you as criticism. For that I am truly sorry. There is enough heart ache for all of us who know the truth of God's plan for his people and aren't allowed to live it on Sunday morning without my contributing to it no matter how unwittingly. I have not re-read it. I am certain that what I meant and what I said were not the same thing. I was feeling very emotional that night.
Moderator please, please delete it. I have no desire to cause further pain to those who haven't read it yet.

In Sisterly love,

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/17/2002 04:08:50 PM

Vicki,

Thanks for the honesty of your post. I get e-mail occasionally that criticizes the site’s focus. People writing in to say that this issue I’m promoting is distracting attention and resources away from what “really matters.” It turns out that what “really matters” is a matter of some debate. The three most common candidates with my canned responses are:

“Neighbor Love”
I'm with Vicki: the choice between love and truth is a false one. My conviction is that there can be no love without truth, and no truth without love. If I really love someone, I can and will endure the suffering that comes with telling them the truth and listening to them when they try to tell me the truth. On the other hand, anything I do or say in the name of truth becomes a “noisy gong or a clanging symbol” if it does not grow out of committed love (agape). Jesus loved every single person he encountered, but his life was hardly one big Hallmark card. The love he lived and died for will always be costly for everyone who encounters it.

“Evangelism”
I can’t imagine a single issue more critical to evangelism in our context than gender justice. I believe with all my heart that if we fail in this cause of gender justice, our witness will be crippled. This problem is getting worse every single day. The day is soon coming (and where I live the day has already arrived) when a church that discriminates on the basis of gender will be regarded in exactly the same light as a church that discriminates on the basis of race. Without serious progress, within a generation (give or take for location) we will essentially enjoy the evangelistic credibility of racists. A good way to recruit other racists, perhaps, but a dying way of life in the 21st century.

“The Fight Against Secular Values”
Discrimination based on the circumstances of one’s birth is the ultimate secular value. Why would anyone listen to anything we have to say about morality when we are walking around with this mossy old log in our collective eye? I don’t know about other parts of the country, but in the pluralistic society I live in, people no longer automatically look to the church for guidance on questions about ethics. In other words, our relevance to moral discourse is now an open question. If the church wants to be taken seriously in the marketplace of ideas about morality, we should stop everything and deal with the question of gender justice now.

Here endeth the rant.

:::posted by Lance on 9/17/2002 02:19:22 PM

Vicki,
I'm still here :>) Spent the day yesterday with my children's minister daughter listening to frustrations, worries, problems, etc. That included Dad buying lunch as usual (which I'm not complaining about at all :>) !) and yesterday evening watching TV with my wife, who I only see one or two evenings a week (and about 10 minutes out of each 24 hours the rest of the time) thanks to Osama!. Been checking in on the forum apx every 2 hrs this morning while repairing computers but been too busy to even let anyone know I was around. Wiley

.

:::posted by Wiley on 9/17/2002 01:51:30 PM

I came this a.m. to break the silence, but I see Julie has been here already. I wanted to ask if the silence came because it was implied that if we are angry with our brothers, we don't love them. I don't know if that's why the others have been so quiet, but it has been true for me. I also want to make one very clear statement: It is BECAUSE we love these brothers that we are in such pain over the anger of their actions toward us, the anger in their voices toward us, the anger in the faces toward us. The deeper our love for them, the deeper the pain we feel. It is no longer a question of IF we will be treated this way again, but of WHEN. We expect it. But it still hurts. If anyone is overwhelmed reading about our frustrations, pain, and yes, anger, then don't read. We need this place of refuge, safety, comfort. Please don't take it away from us because of your discomfort. Please don't make us feel that we have to tiptoe here, too. We are comrades in a battle with extremely high stakes. We need to bring to light that Christ died to bring reconciliation to all people for all time, that is, to take us all back to the Pre-Fall relationship with God. Salvation is total liberty. May we see it in our churches, in our lifetime.

:::posted by Vicki on 9/17/2002 10:59:19 AM

It has been very quiet around this forum lately. I have been busy with work, family and church. I know that this is a busy time of year and we are all trying to get back to a regular routine after summer fun. I am so looking forward to the Zoe conference in Nashville in a couple of weeks. Are any of you attending also? If so, let's make sure and meet each other so we are not talking to blank faces anymore. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/17/2002 01:07:14 AM

Jeff's 'Green Acres' comment started me thinking about how it is that once you accept Galatians 3:28 and what "both male and female" really means for the church, you begin to see more and more women in the New Testament in significant roles, and you can't avoid the issue. At the last congregation where we worshipped, the membership was very sensitive on the topic of women and did NOT want to get into this discussion. Yet every time they asked Chris to teach a class, the topic somehow came up. Acts? The women are in there. Once you see it, you can't avoid it in the text anymore in those passages where you used to read past it because "it can't mean that." Romans? Check out that 16th chapter. How about those instructions for how women should dress while praying and prophesying (and if it wasn't in a public setting, why would it matter how they were dressed to do it?).

It's like when you learned how to read. One day, those symbols on signs and pieces of paper meant nothing to you. The next day, you could read some of them, and soon you could read them all. Once they acquired meaning, you couldn't help but read them. You can't walk by a sign today without reading it; if you so much as glance at it, you have the content.

Katie raised an important issue awhile back, which is how to we get past "it's okay" and move on to "it's imperative." Someone else--was it Julie? said, and I may be oversimplifying, the worst thing is for a congregation to study it and do nothing. I agree, I've been at several congregations where it was studied, and people were ready to admit that the inclusion of women was scriptural, but they felt no prerogative to DO IT. Whereas before the study I could maintain the notion that "if they just studied it, then they would accept me," once we had studied it as a group and they did not act on it, it felt very much like a personal rejection to me and I wondered if I had held back the cause by being too forceful, wanting it too much, not being traditional enough in other ways so as to be less threatening.

I feel for those of you currently dealing with this question on a day to day basis. Where we are here in NC, no one is really approaching the issue so in a way, I have a bit of a rest from it (and I'm back in the mode of telling myself, if they studied it, they might agree with me). In terms of practical advice, Katie has written a very perceptive article about what the congregations have in common, that have made progress on the issue. In terms of what not to do, I can offer these tips:

1. Don't think that this battle can be fought in the pulpit, Change on this issue does not come from a series of forceful sermons (at least not at the front end). Minds and hearts will be reached one on one and in small groups, and change will build from there. A sermon series can be a good way to explain what has already happened to the congregation, to give everyone a framework to put their understanding on, but the basic understanding has to come first and in a more intimate setting.
2. Don't think that it will happen quickly--it won't.
3. Be prepared for the arguments around our history: why are we the first people to figure this out? Well, we're not. Our Restoration history includes women playing much more significant roles than you think, serving as deacons, and even preaching. But most of us aren't very well versed in those aspects; most of the folks who will argue that 'the church of Christ doesn't do that' do not want to think about our movement prior to 1960.

Keep the faith and above all, keep sight of the priorities mentioned a few days ago. Gender justice is not the end, it is a side effect for what we are really after.

--Mary Lou

:::posted by Mary Lou on 9/13/2002 09:18:24 PM

Jeff, I love the "Green Acres" illustration! I believe that is accurate and explains why others have such a hard time acclimating to us. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/13/2002 01:52:41 PM

Jeff said "I think what we all want to do is motivate people to ask questions..."
Patty said " . . . anything that gets in the way of loving God and loving others is sin. No matter who does it and no matter why. "

I read both of these posts this morning and these two quotes keep running through my thoughts, somehow connected. For some unknown reason it made me think of an article / interview with Max Lucado that I read in Christian Chronicle.

"The Churches of Christ need to return to the days when we did it best. Look at the convictions of the Campbells, Stone and others. Genuinely simplistic. Passionate in love. Tolerant in controversy. They accepted all who accepted Christ and disagreed agreeably. Relevant. Flexible. They took Scripture seriously, yet had respect for the mystery therein. They dreamed of restoring the faith and force of the New Testament Church … ahh, now there is a dream worthy of imitation."

Why my mind is connecting these I don't know, just thought I would share.

Shelly

:::posted by Shelly on 9/12/2002 03:17:34 PM

Just a quick note before I go on vacation... We are headed to Vermont for ten days - no phones, no computers -just a fire in the woodstove and lots of books to read...

I was talking to a friend this week who grew up as a Baptist and has an advanced degree in religion. She married a lifelong friend of mine a couple of years ago and they have been attending a church of Christ ever since. Her description of the church is that it's a lot like the old television show "GREEN ACRES" in that strange things happen and no one seems to take much notice except Mr. Douglas. People climb poles to talk on the telephone...that's just the way things are done. Arnold the Pig carries on long conversations with folks and everybody but Mr. Douglas can understand him. Mr. Haney sells junk at exorbitant prices and everybody just pays the price except Mr.. Douglas.

I think what we all want to do is motivate people to ask questions..."Why are we doing things the way we do with regard to gender justice?"

Have a great week! God's richest blessings on everyone here!

Peace,
jp

:::posted by Jeff on 9/12/2002 07:59:32 AM

Amen, amen, amen.
In the terrible stories of the losses and dangers on the news shows, there was some good: I heard God mentioned over and over.
Beverly

:::posted by Beverly on 9/11/2002 11:22:52 PM

I worked very hard today in my very busy labor and delivery unit. It was good to welcome new lives into the world on this day that was reminding us of so many lives lost. grace, Julie

:::posted by julie on 9/11/2002 10:23:25 PM

Grace and peace to all of you on this terrible anniversary.

:::posted by Lance on 9/11/2002 09:37:16 PM

I just returned from watching a video of the memorial service for Stanley Shipp who died 2 weeks ago. My heart is full of sadness, hope and conviction. What I learned while an intern was that loving God and loving people is all that really matters. It is actually our churches motto.
I just want to remind all of us that anything that gets in the way of loving God and loving others is sin. No matter who does it and no matter why. That means that if we focus our lives on gender issues and forget God we are sinning. Also if others focus on the gender issue in the opposite way and keep some from working for the kingdom because of it they are also sinning. All that really matters is if you live your life serving God and serving others. I know I have wandered off course some myself. I needed that reminder tonight. Perhaps it is timely for others of you as well.
Please don't mistake what I am saying. Gender justice is very important. It is part of living as God would have us. I am just urging you to make sure that imitating Christ is your goal and gender justice is the side effect of it not the other way around. I know that I get the the goal and the side effect reversed way too often.
In Him,

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/10/2002 11:12:43 PM

I can sew - clothes better than humans, sometimes.
Everyone needs a laugh, so I'll tell a story on myself.
For years, I told everyone that I had to "sew up" about making all my family's clothes for years (My poor son!) I proudly told about winning second place in the East Texas State Fair in Tyler, Texas, for a real, tailored men's suit, with the rolled collar and everything.
One day, as I was telling this story in order to distract a 9 year old boy, who was very upset about the whole process. He quieted, sniffled, and looked up at me and said,

"I wish you'd won 1st place."

Beverly

:::posted by Beverly on 9/10/2002 08:43:51 PM

(Beverly - FYI - Those minister robes are slightly higher than scrubs - easily $800! What I could do for my wardrobe with that!)

:::posted by Vicki on 9/10/2002 01:32:14 AM

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. We have talked about Oak Hills (in fact, visited there 10 or 12 years ago, before moving north to New Braunfels. We would like to find a closer, maybe smaller, congregation, but I'm wide open, right now. I think I heard about Sunset a while back,but didn't write the name down, and so, Lance, you saved me a phone book search. I did look at the CBE site for information, and that's where I found about the Disciples of Christ church we visited on the 1st. (My husband literally pales at the single, quiet piano -I''m not sure he breathed during the whole service because of the organ, candles and robes - but, he can adapt, we'll see.)

(And, Patty and Lance, just as scrubs solve my dressing delemma at work, at least the robes and vestments would solve yours! Just think - no expensive adornment, no gender-specific clothing, and an identifiable uniforme, to boot. You could probably design them so there'd be no need for a tie or panty hose!)

We were visited by members of the church we visited yesterday. They left information, including a monthly calendar - all of the leaders, except the nursery and "children's church" teachers are men. I mentioned to the wife of the couple that I was looking for a church where women were Christians first, and she told me about the Women's meeting. Oh, well. Even some women don't get it, yet.

Larry and I agree that we need to look for the best fit (I'm still praying for a perfect fit). I think he may be more sure that we don't want to end up in a situation that's only half-way there.

I've been thinking about If I had the chance to talk to an elder who believed that men and women should be recognized as full members in the royal priesthood of our Savior, I'd say, "You're a leader. Lead!"

Beverly

:::posted by Beverly on 9/10/2002 12:34:24 AM

Patty,

Welcome back. You may have read that we have done the “clothing and gender” thing to death with regard to “modesty.” Your question deserves some attention as well.

I can say that I am a convert to the “what you wear matters” school. I went a long time insisting that what I wear is a trivial matter warranting little attention. Now, I just admit that, like it or not, it really does matter to most people. With apologies to the apostle: “To those who care about clothing I have become like one who cares about clothing.” I have to “dress the part” to be taken seriously as a minister by many.

My guess is that this is even trickier for women in ministry. Random story: One of my all time cherished memories is of Katie, 8 months pregnant, offering the ecumenical Thanksgiving service homily at St. Joseph’s Roman Catholic Church. I seriously doubt a woman had ever spoken in their sanctuary and, believe me, there was no getting around the fact that she was a woman. There is no point to the story, really, but it leads me to my suggestion that there is no sense trying to dress so as to help people forget that you are a woman.

“Feminine” clothing is, no doubt, a rather broad designation that could mean very different things to different people in different contexts. I don’t know about the pink sun dress, but I would suggest that, man or woman, a minister must be a student of their own context and should dress as if they expect to be taken seriously.

:::posted by Lance on 9/09/2002 09:54:58 PM

Beverly,
My husband and I recently finished the church search. Even though we knew there was an egalitarian CoC near where we were moving to (Brookline) we looked at a bunch, only considering it as one of the options. One thing that we found very helpful was to check the statement of faith that the vast majority of churches post on their website. This allowed us to eliminate the ones that we thought were out of sync with our beliefs. Although most churches don't have anything on their websites that says whether they are egalitarian or not, you can check their list of leaders, read articles they've posted, etc. to get an idea. We tried to keep the number of churches we visited down to a minimum since its very draining to go somewhere different every week (although interesting if you've never done it before). There was only one situation in which we were unsure of where women stood in the congregation after we had visited so my husband emailed the preacher. He said that they believed in full participation for women, but all of the women they had asked to be elders had declined. I think a lot of the women had come from conservative backgrounds and were still uncomfortable with stepping into the leadership roles.

:::posted by Indie on 9/09/2002 08:27:50 PM

I would NOT say that the gender issue is simmering below the surface at our congregation, but it keeps coming up in conversations at church (maybe that's because I'm part of those conversations - I hope it is more than that!) What I would say, is that I keep finding people who agree, but are not going to fight for it, and I think that eventually it will take a fight. Recently I was speaking with a well-known preacher who said that he agrees, but it's not something that he would fight for, and all I could say is, "that's because you're not a women - you're not on the other end of this issue." Since then, I treasure every time I hear a man speak out FOR women.

I may be faced with changing churches, too and the thought really upsets me. I've been moving all over the country / state / city for the last 22 years and I don't want to change churches again! I'm not sure there is a congregation within 30 miles that would be any better / different on these issues - well, maybe one (surface or real thing???). There is so much potential, but I'm afraid the opposition is too great, even if they are few, they are LOUD. There are several bright spots, we're studying Beth Moore's Breaking Free, the one Vicki mentioned a few days ago. Great Study, I highly recommend it. We also have a couple of Elders that are real treasures! One is the father of four daughters, all very strong Christians, and VERY capable leaders. HOWEVER - Sunday we lost our Involvement Minister, good man, one of those I trusted. This spring we lost our Pulpit / Senior Minister, also a great minister, leader, counselor. We are currently looking to replace both and add an Education Minister (one of the elders mentioned, in a public forum) that the Education Minister could be male or female - bright spot! (Send all applicants to INDY). We did have a woman as Children's Minister (part-time paid position) she did not leave the congregation; she is the wife of one of our Elders.

On the abuse issue - it is taught in every aspect of our culture that girls need someone to look out for them, boys can take care of themselves. I can hear those words (my Dad's) echoing to me from the past every time I wanted to do something that my brother had been allowed to do. We may not want to face it, but we are still the weaker sex in the eyes of the majority of the world. I have worked in male-dominated fields (I am a fleet maintenance manager) for the last several years and I see it daily! I lived it and am terrified of the [lack of] example I have been to my children. My 15, almost 16-year-old daughter thinks that, "the angriest person wins." The Church, as a whole, needs to un-bury there heads (necks, shoulders, arms, legs) and face these fact that abuse is happening daily, and it is evil, and the abusee (is that a word?) is not required to stay, nor are they required to stay quiet or alone for the rest of their lives. In the end it was my decision, no one elses, to stay in that situation for 13 years, and I am not sure that I could have made any other decision at that time. God saved me from him, more than once I'm sure.

I better stop - I feel a sermon coming on . . .
Thanks for listening to my rantings!

Shelly

:::posted by Shelly on 9/09/2002 08:18:00 PM

Beverly,
If San Antonio is within driving distance you might also take a look at Sunset Ridge Church of Christ. They are not egalitarian, but they are still probably in the top 1% in terms of women's participation. You can take a look at their web site: http://www.sunsetridgechurch.org/. Their class schedule indicates that they have women co-teaching classes. It's a little pathetic to have to get excited about that, but it is better than the status quo.

:::posted by Lance on 9/09/2002 08:14:03 PM

Beverly,

I don't get down to your area very often, but the first place I would be looking if I were within 30 miles of San Antonio (and I think New Braunfels is close to that-you can correct me if I'm wrong) would be Oak Hills CoC (where Max Lucado preaches). We have visited with them before they moved in the new building and found it to be a good worship experience. Linda and I drive almost 35 miles to find a congregation that we can feel somewhat comfortable with. It's a loving congregation but is what Joe Beam might describe as "searching" leaning toward "cautious". From comments I have heard recently from some of the women, the gender justice issue is simmering just below the surface, waiting for elders with a more open attitude. We already have several that, given the right situation, I think will be open to serious study.

Wiley

:::posted by Wiley on 9/09/2002 07:00:50 PM

Beverly, at the risk of sounding like a broken record -- check out the Christians for Biblical Equality website. (Find it at www.cbeinternational.org or link to it from the gal328.org site.) They help match individuals with churches that are truly committed to gender justice (not only the appearance thereof). Our congregation is listed there and they sometimes send requests my way from people who are shopping in our general vicinity. Their geography is not great -- Long Island is very "long" and therefore our congregation is too far for the majority of folks who find us in this way. But in other states it might work better, especially if you live in a populated area. Give them a try. Churches listed there will be evangelical, mostly, which is to say biblically conservative and with a strong commitment to the Bible's warrant for true gender justice. peace -- Katie

:::posted by Katie on 9/09/2002 06:43:20 PM

I got away for a couple of weeks and I can't belive how much I have to catch up on. I'm working my way through it.
A few comments right now while I have the time.
1. I really love being here and reading all you have to say. I don't often think I have much to add but I like listening in on the conversation.
2. My heart aches for those of you who have been confronted head on by leadership about gender justice and I also am in awe of you. I wonder if I should be doing more since I have only gotten into that situation once and that was with a minister from a congregation I didn't attend.
3. As a newlywed (married just over a year) who is striving for gender justice I love to hear of couples who have been more or less doing it for many, many years. My parents do it (although my mother is now horrified that I think it should extend to Sunday morning and tries to claim that they don't or that it is sin) and my husband's parents did to the best of his knowledge (his mother is deceased and his father is married to a rather traditional woman now so we really can't ask about it much). We're still learning how to do it and learning what our unconscious tendencies are. (like I assume the man will take out the trash) I will mow the lawn as much as I am physically able however.
4. The idea of giving up femininity to achieve gender justice was touched upon earlier and I want address it more. (and perhaps talked about more in posts I haven't gotten to yet). I too find that I must prove my worth through the manly things I do. I mow the lawn and fix the car. I am embarrassed to like girly things. As though it makes me weak minded. I tend to like "masculine" colors and hate pink and ruffles but sometimes... Would a female preacher in a pink sun dress get the respect that a man in Khakis and a polo shirt gets? Must she choose between respect and femininity? Must she look as masculine as possible (ie suit) to be respectable? That is true in the work place, is it/should it be true in our churches? At our church suits are rarely if ever worn. Ties are rare in fact even on the preacher. What might a female preacher wear here?
I have no idea if any of that even made any sense. I am just so thrilled to talk to people who I don't have to convince of anything. I have been retreating in my cocoon for the past few months. Enjoying how much more I know about church now that I have a husband and resenting it at the same time. I have been a member of this congregation for 5 years and I now am more in the loop as to what is happening than I have been in years. Now that I have a husband who is filled in, and sometimes passes it on. (For a long time he assumed I also got the e-mail updated he got. He was bewildered to discover that I don't.)

You have stoked the fire under me. I am considering a letter to the elders about my beliefs. Their is one elder who know what we belive and mostly supports it. I think it is time to come out of the closet though to the rest of them.

I'm going to quit rambling now.

In His Love,

Patty

:::posted by Patty on 9/09/2002 06:41:08 PM

Beverly - Be wary. I am of the opinion (like, who cares?) that MOST churches where women are more visible and vocal are only there because they have been given premission by male leadership to do those things. In my mind, that is not egalitarianism, but the APPEARANCE of egalitarianism. If you're looking, don't stop until you find the REAL THING! You just might have to be a church-planter to find it!

If you're up to a move, there is a great little church in Missoula, MT I highly recommend.
-Vicki

:::posted by Vicki on 9/09/2002 04:54:54 PM

Can any of you give advice on looking for a new church?

Larry talked to the elders yesterday, and they said that he is (or we are) right, even about us leaving. (I'm paraphrasing the summary I heard from Larry. I didn't go because I am not sure I can remain Christ-like while explaining in "real-time' that women should have a voice in the service of God. I waited 24 hours before I trusted myself to even write about it.)

I wonder whether going to the preacher with a list of questions (or a statement of my own "creed") - and then evaluating his reaction to my asking them at all as well as the answeres - is the way to go.

We visited an Independent Christian church yesterday where it appears that all the leaders are men, but the women spoke from the congregation (one even stood and faced the congregation, from the side of the auditorium) at the request for announcements, prayers and concerns. And there was a choir and piano, but no robes and no candles (as last week at the other church.). It was very like the services I grew up knowing. (But Larry says I should be wary that it was emphasized several times that they are a people of the "Book." Even if the Book is the NIV.)

Beverly

:::posted by Beverly