The purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ. If you would like to join the forum, send an e-mail (including your first and last name) from your primary address to forum@gal328.org.
Vicki -- Don't know of any. I should think we'd have found each other by now! Looking forward to having female colleagues soon. I must add that many of my male colleagues (including a couple who are participating on this forum!) have been quite accepting. peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 7/31/2002 03:01:55 PM
Mike,
I would think that any Church of Christ preacher who quotes Anne Lamont in his sermon would be immune to bugaboos! But alas, new and more determined strains are always developing.
A good reason to stay strong and press on.
:::posted by Carmen on 7/31/2002 12:04:13 PM
Hello again friends,
Lisa, are you the same Lisa from the wineskins forum? If not, you two should "meet!"
I agree that it is frustrating to allow little girls to participate and then bar their participation as women. My young daughter was baptized this year. So far, she has not asked why she has not been able to serve communion like the young boys who are baptized are permitted to do. Probably because she understands the boundaries without anyone saying it out loud.
Lance, I was surprised with your bold "soul-sickness" comment. I've never heard that, but believe it to be true. I appreciate your candor. Anyone who is worried about their ability to control is not relying on God. (Although I have to include myself in that category too;-)
Mike, I don't know how to proceed without worry about area-wide "bugaboos." I know my home congregation has been making decisions and avoiding decisions because of fears of being excluded from the local fellowship of churches. I hate to see fear be our guide. Recently our congregation has stepped away from our traditional eldership. We want to return to having spiritual leaders, but we all recognized that what we had wasn't working. It had turned into a veto group. I'm hoping we can begin to have some movement now. I do know that the reputation our congregation has exceeds our actual practices. Everyone thinks that we are really "out there." But I think you'd find our services pretty traditional. That's just my perception. What I see as a baby step many others see as a Neil Armstrong step.
Thanks to everyone for for their encouragement. Indie, I will pray that God opens doors for you.
In Christ,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 7/31/2002 11:07:59 AM
Katie (or anyone else who knows the answer),
Are you aware of any other women in the pulpits of the Churches of Christ?
:::posted by Vicki on 7/31/2002 09:45:20 AM
Indie and Vicki,
I tried this post early this morning (0035 hrs to be exact) and my modem disconnected at the wrong moment!
I don't want to minimize the underpay issue for men either. I have good friends who struggle daily with low salaries
who are not paid for their qualifications or the responsibilities they actually have. Several have left ministery because of low pay. It's a sad truth. However, it is even more apparent in the area of females. A female with the same graduate degree as the comparable male will be paid less. I pray this changes to a position of equality at some point in the future, but I don't forsee it happening very soon. In my area, a male with the same experience/education as a female applying for the the same job (if it's really available to a female!) will be offered more. A very sad fact of life at this point in time. I think there will come a time when my daughter will be forced to make the decision as to whether or not to leave ministry because of low pay. Right now, she is trying everything she can to stay in it because she has the calling to be there. It's really the only thing she has ever really wanted to do since she was in high school.
I was chatting with her the other day and she was telling me about a trend that seems to be taking hold in some of the larger churches recently regarding replacing female Children's Ministers (since right now that is really the only readily available position of ministry for most females) who resign a position (saw this happen at our church also but hadn't put 2 and 2 together--we had a male Children's Minister who went back to football coaching in the public schools). She was telling me that the elders are opting for hiring several part time women within a congregation at much lower pay or going all volunteer rather than refilling the position with a qualified replacement. To me, this leads to a misdirected, or chaotic childrens program with the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing with the most valuable assets we have! At the same time, there is still a push to graduate women from a graduate theoligical school level to fill those positions that are already being lost to part time low pay workers.
Well, I guess this father as rambled too much. Grace to you and peace.
Wiley
:::posted by Wiley on 7/30/2002 09:47:53 AM
Hi, everyone, I'm Beverly Nuckols. I've been discussing with the Berean Spirit forum members on this for a while (and my fellow Christians in real life for most of my life).I've found support from a few men on that forum and from many more people on Grace Centered Magazine. That's how I found y'all. I'm so glad to find this site, the articles available on the site, and now, this Forum! You are truly a blessing from God.
Lisa Hart wrote,
", I made the observation to a woman at our church that it was interesting the way we encouraged the young girls to participate in a our children's worship with song leading, prayer, everything! And, what a difficult transition it might be for them to not have those same opportunities as adult women
At least in the American Baptist Association/ Landmark Missionary Baptist churches I grew up in, the women were allowed to lead singing, pray, teach teens and sometimes men (although it didn't happen if a qualified man was available, at all) and even (gasp) sing "specials," play the piano, organ, clarinet or other instrument. We girls had an opportunity and were encouraged to serve God. We didn't preach, but we testified, and the singing and special music meant a lot to me. And, we had a tradition of monthly business meetings attended by everyone, and all the members had an equal vote and "say-so." At least when there was a disagreement, it was out in the open.
We must depend on the men who are in power in our churches to realise the parallel between the women of today and the black and hispanic Christians of the last 40 years. Or we will lose our girls, our young women and then our women.
I agree that gender discrimination is soul-sickness for some men. (Have any of you seen the look on the little boys' faces when they come to the realization that they are "better than" or at least allowed to do many more of the things they see in church, than the girls?)
Actually, I'm convinced that the division of "worship" into "functions" and roles that are only open to men is idolatry, exactly corresponding to the Judaizers with whom Paul and Peter contended. If anything is more important in the fellowship than service of God, each of us as we have been blessed and to the fullness of our ability, then that "more important" thing is what is worshipped, rather than God. I can't imagine that God intended that any of us veil our light rather than shine for Him.
Beverly
:::posted by Beverly on 7/29/2002 06:57:41 PM
Just an observation from the spouse of one of those "grossly underpaid" men in the ministry. He is (we are) not in this work for the money. Never has been. Hopefully, prayerfully, and through the guidance of the Spirit, never will be. O, it would be nice to never have to worry about insurance, retirement, etc., or not to worry if this car will make just one more 12oo mile trip home to visit family, but that's not what it's about. If it were, we'd be in it for the wrong reasons. I know a man who thought being in full-time ministry would be a "nice job." Guess what? That man left the pulpit after 3 years. He was never called, never anointed. Many thanks to those, men and women, who respond to the call of the Master, not the chink of the paycheck. - Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 7/29/2002 06:45:05 PM
Wiley,
Thanks for the reply. I'm sure it won't make you feel any better, but I have also known quite a few men in the ministry who are grossly underpaid as well. It shows where our priorities are. As for me, I've considered seminary myself but am also considering a bunch of other options. And since I currently work at a seminary, I am taking free classes. I hope that someday there will be lots of women in ministry who will be thankful to folks like your daughter for paving the way for them.
:::posted by Indie on 7/29/2002 06:02:45 PM
Indie,
There does seem to be "some" money available for females to enter graduate school
but it is not as much as is available for the males. My daughter received her Masters in Christian Education from
ACU's Graduate School of Theology this year. She did receive "some" help but, honestly, it wasn't near enough
for the amount of push they put on her to get into the field. In her case, though, she would have done it anyway without the help! I guess there have to be trail blazers, and she is definitely one of them, but the overwhelming debt load she is having to carry and small amount of financial return she is getting as a Children's Minister is absolutely ridiculous. Her debt load just from tuition and school expenses (this includes her undergraduate expenses at ACU which must be counted!) is more than 2x her present yearly pay--and that is after the limited scholarship money they gave her. Her salary is quite a bit below that of a 1st year school teacher with a BA in Education in the inner city schools in Dallas. Quite honestly it has given both my wife and I some real heartache. I don't want to scare off any female wishing to enter ministry because we desperately need females in all areas of ministry but please expect only minimal help overall for quite a while yet as compared to a male.
God bless,
Wiley Clarkson
:::posted by Wiley on 7/28/2002 05:15:10 PM
Carmen - Great description of the "major area-wide bugaboo." I've seen this pattern over and over in churches and Christian colleges. Rather than fearlessly looking at issues as they arise from our encounter with scripture and the world, we tend to recoil and retreat. How do we continue on this journey with both compassion and boldness? That's a question I keep finding myself facing. Mike
:::posted by Mike on 7/28/2002 09:50:55 AM
Lisa, your conversation calls to mind a couple of experiences. I can well understand women--who already do most of what gets done in the average church--worrying about being granted "expanded" roles. It is certainly true that gender justice must lead to a rethinking of the role of men as well. Now that would be a refreshing title for a book: Men in the Church: Reclaiming the Ideal.
I tried to get at this issue in the final phrase of the definition: “…and encouraging men to discover and cultivate their gifts for activities traditionally performed by women.” Even in churches that have made huge progress on gender justice—churches where women preach, teach, and lead singing—most men are slow to figure out that it works both ways. Gender justice has just as much to do with the nursery sign-up sheet as the preaching schedule.
On the question of men and their participation in church, in the conclusion of his essay "A Final Farewell to the 12th Century" in The Transforming of a Tradition, Dale Pauls notes that the decline in men’s membership and involvement in church is an 800 year old trend which dates (perhaps not coincidentally) to the 12th century when many of the church’s most patriarchal patterns of thought and practice were first introduced.
Injustice is a sickness in the human soul. Slavery is soul-sickness for the master. Gender discrimination is soul-sickness for men.
:::posted by Lance on 7/26/2002 10:48:47 PM
I had an interesting discussion this week and I'm wondering about the experiences you have had. In a nutshell, I made the observation to a woman at our church that it was interesting the way we encouraged the young girls to participate in a our children's worship with song leading, prayer, everything! And, what a difficult transition it might be for them to not have those same opportunities as adult women. (You think we're frustrated - just wait!) The other individual expressed concern that if women began taking responsiblity for the public worship too, then the men would not take responsiblity for that anymore either! (Emphasis was placed on the words "too" and "either!")
It struck me anew that patriarchy not only harms women, it harms men as well. Most of the "aside" type comments made by women about men do not hold men in high regard. In fact, some women seem to believe that men incompetent and irresponsible. This rarely spoken concern - that men will abandon duties/priviledges/responsiblities/opportunties in the church if women are allowed the same duties/priviledges/respo.... - this concern may be a major roadblock to change and gender justice. This question must be asked: Is this concern real or imagined?
Blessings,
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 7/26/2002 06:13:15 PM
Does anyone know if there are any scholarships for women from Churches of Christ who want to go to seminary?
:::posted by Indie on 7/26/2002 02:33:36 PM
Thank you Lance, Katie, Dale and all who have provided this site. Vicki, I live in southern California, but I am middle-aged and would love to be a part of your Step-by-Step group. As it is, I appear to be the only one doing any stepping around here. I know there must be people in my church group who can discuss "the women's issue" from something other than a hierarchal point of view, but I have not found them. In fact the churches in this area that had shown signs of loosening the grip, have tightened up again. I guess I have lived long enough now to identify this as a pattern. We go through periods where there appears to be a productive evolution of gender-justice ... women are given a little more room to move ... invited to stand up before the church and be recognised for some achievement or thanked for some service ... to stand at her place in the audience and make announcements to the congregation about some program or shower ... to serve on a hiring or building or missions commitee ... Then, suddenly, there is some change in leadership, pulpit, or a major area-wide bugaboo over something completely unrelated to women and service, and we must readjust to the tightend position. This tightening and loosening is achieved through the subtleties of nuance and modeling along with the occasional sermon prescription to "answer all of your questions about the difficult scriptures concerning women." Until we take that step away from the unapproachable hierarchal model we can't even begin to discuss the scripture as scripture because under that model scripture is reduced to icon.
Ann and Lance, I too believe that Jesus' dialgoues with women are much deeper than most are willing to hear. The story of the woman who washed his feet at the house of Simon the Pharisee contrasts with the confrontation between Elijah and Saul ... that woman washing his feet is the image of reconcilliation through selflessness rather than justification through power and priviledge. The woman who touched him in Capernaum contrasts with teh woman who touched the fruit in the Garden. The woman at the well contrasts with Rebecka and the servant ... and on and on. As literary comparatives, these interludes between Woman and The Son have deep spirtual value about women and God and can move man and woman toward reconcilliation.
Thank you again for reaching out. It is so good to know I can keep company here!
:::posted by Carmen on 7/26/2002 03:58:18 AM
Just a quick reminder:
When you post, don't forget to click "Post & Publish" so that your comments will be published to the Gal328.org Forum page as well.
:::posted by Lance on 7/25/2002 02:53:54 PM
Good morning to all of my kindred spirits! I thank God for you every day! I don't know your face, or the sound of your voice, or the touch of your hand, but I know your hearts. I find comfort in names that are now familiar to me. And because your hearts are revealed in your words, I have found a safe place with you. We ask the same questions, read the same books. The world is smaller, and God is closer because of you. I draw strength and courage through you.
There is a group of middle-aged women (YEA!) out of Dallas, TX called Step-by-Step. There is a song on their CD with words I want to share:
So, onward we go,
to where we don't know.
But the Lord says to go.
And the Lord, He knows.
The Lord, He knows.
Trusting Him,
Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 7/25/2002 11:57:20 AM
Hello to all,
I have been trying to join but got a little "blogged" down;-) So now I have a whole lot of catching up to do in this intriguing discussion. I'm sure I'll miss some things, but I'll try to keep up better now.
Vicki, Christina, and Lisa,
It is a constant struggle to worship in an environment that forbids your worship. You've read of my struggle, but I am filled with hope recently. I pray that God will use your perseverance and questions to open more doors in the Churches of Christ. There is nothing wrong or selfish in asking questions. My favorite is "Could it possibly mean something else?" If our traditions are solid, there should be no fear in questioning them. But they aren't. The fear, often displayed as self-righteous anger, indicates that we are chipping away at man-made traditions. Don't stop asking questions.
In my home congregation we've recently survived some big changes. Opportunities are opening to women. We don't fit the description Katie listed earlier. We temporarily have no elders or preacher. Everyone keeps resigning because our traditions and fears keep butting heads with questions. But as a congregation, we just ammended the by-laws to allow women the right to vote in business meetings. One of our corporate officers and one of our trustees is a woman. We've just hired a new preacher to start very soon that is open to new thinking. We are going to be cautious about re-establishing elders so that we don't make the same mistakes we did before. Women are teaching mixed adult classes. Women are ministry leaders and lead devotionals and singing in some of the small groups. We only haven't broken the stained glass ceiling of our auditorium on Sunday mornings. But the terrific thing is that I hear discussion from so many sources asking, "Why not?" It's no longer just me and a friend asking questions.
I know not everyone agrees on the extent to which women should participate. Many would draw a new line at elders and preachers. It has taken ten years of questioning to get this far. As much as I want revolution, I will be patient for a Spirit-led evolution in our practices. Everyone agrees that women can serve communion. I'm confident that our first step on Sunday mornings will be there.
Lisa, I really liked your point about women being "imiators of God" too (Eph 5:1.) I think the biggest weakness in our churches treatment of women is our inconsitencies. If women being silent is a timeless command, then does Ephesians 5:29 apply to women? How about Eph 5:19-20? How about the Great Commission? You see how silly it can quickly become to be so legalistic? (Of course you see!) 2 Timothy 4:2 tells us to "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season..." I think it would be safe to say that we are "out of season" in many places. But we should be prepared. So keep studying sisters! Keep asking questions. Most of all, "Cast all your anxiety on Him because he cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7.)
Vicki, you say you've put the "yoke" back on. Jesus says his "yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matt 11:30.) You may feel stuck where you are, but God has a plan for you. Don't give up hope. And stay connected with other Christians on forums like these and wineskins.
Lisa, my book club read Pope Joan about a year ago. I loved it (if you can go along with a few stretches of plot.) A similar style book is Ken Follet's "Pillars of the Earth." I warn you that the portrayal of evil in this novel is graphic, but it provides a great commentary on good and evil and formal religion. You might also enjoy "The Shunning" by Beverly Lewis. It's about an Amish woman who just can't fit in to all the regulations of her religion. (Sound familiar?) I'm currently reading Carroll Osburn's "Women in the Church: Reclaiming the Ideal." Fascinating and supportive.
Simply Clinging to the Cross,
Ann
:::posted by Ann on 7/24/2002 05:46:20 PM
Jesus’s acceptance of women is a compelling argument for gender justice and I’d like to see a responsible treatment of it for the site. I’d like to point out, however, that in “Lord of the Sabbath,” Paul Casner is up to something far different—something, frankly, bigger.
Following in the footsteps of Karl Barth, he is arguing that Jesus Christ is the sole hermeneutic principle. This has major implications for gender justice—and everything else.
And this is my experience: that gender justice is not a discreet issue. Rather it is part of a larger shift in the church’s self-understanding that has far-reaching implications. Katie got at this in her list of “things gender justice churches have in common.” For discussion, I offer a few “traveling companions” of gender justice, especially with reference to hermeneutics:
1. The realization that “God said it, I believe, and that settles it” just won’t cut it. Nor will “command, example, inference.” The realization that the “plain sense of scripture” is not as plain as once supposed. Disillusionment with the model of the New Testament as blueprint or constitution.
2. A frank assessment of the “tension” that exists within the Bible—awareness of the need to arrive at an interpretive key that unlocks the tension.
3. A close corollary to #2 is the discovery that the Biblical witness is not “flat,” but that some things are far more important than others, indeed that some things trump others altogether.
4. A return to the NT narratives (the Gospels and Acts) for guidance. A reawakening to the way inspired stories work to redeem the human imagination.
5. Renewed interest in the Kingdom of God that Jesus preached. Rediscovery of God as the one who does the unexpected, champions the marginal, upsets the religiously self-satisfied, and generally turns things upside down for the sake of his surprising grace and love.
6. As a result of all of the above: Reduced dependence on doctrinal certitude as identity. Deep trust that, although we don’t have it all figured out, God does. A resulting disposition of humility and openness to what God might be up to in the church and in the world.
:::posted by Lance on 7/24/2002 10:25:37 AM
I have read just about everything on this site, and I applaud not only the depth of study, but the spirit-led humility with which the information is presented. Ann Evankovich’s article resonated with me. I vacillate between staying and leaving. In my “staying” mode I vacillate between giving up and being the change agent. In my “leaving” mode I vacillate between finding something that “suits me” and creating something new. Paul Casner’s article got close, but just when I thought he was going to actually talk about how Jesus interacted with women as an example for us to follow, the exegesis ended up falling along historical-sociological arguments relative to Pauline texts. These arguments are very powerful, and I am in agreement with them. They seem, however, to occupy the lion’s share of the discussion, so I’d like to present another tack.
I worship the God-man who broke with the tradition of his time regarding gender-issues. He, for example, spoke with the Samaritan woman -- two rules broken here, 1) that he chose to be alone with a woman – big no-no [Mishna-Kiddushin-14] and, 2) that he chose to speak with a Samaritan – cultural faux pas. That he chose to acknowledge a woman with a 12-year blood-issue problem, who touched him in public, opened him up to the criticism of rendering himself unclean, but he acknowledged her none-the-less. “Oh,” you say, “but these were not formal meeting assemblies governed by men-only leadership. How about the time when He called the crooked woman down from the sequestered women’s section of the synagogue, brought her to the men’s section, whereupon post-healing she erupted with a very public glorification of God in the hearing of all those assembled? Maybe the men were plugging up their ears? Maybe He forgot to tell her that women were to keep silent? Wouldn’t this have been just the perfect opportunity for Him to do so if He fully intended for us to worship with only mute women present? Don’t we believe that He could have foreseen this dilemma coming 2,000 years hence and nipped it in the bud with a little teaching-on-the-spot when He had opportunity?
Now, the CofC version of the above stories, were they to occur today, would go something like this: Important revelations, such as the announcement by Messiah of His Deity, must be made at an elders’ or men’s business meeting, but could certainly not be made to a lowly woman first. A woman should find out important news from her husband, and if she has been divorced 5 times and currently is shacking up with #6 she wouldn’t be allowed in the building anyway, much less be allowed an equal-time conversation with the preacher that included challenging theological questions. “Unclean” people of any type must first get cleaned up before they can worship with us, and let’s hope they don’t rub off on us before they do get cleaned up. The crooked woman would be allowed to come forward, but she would have to write her thoughts on paper and the preacher would then read them to the congregation.
It is interesting that in my sacrifice-worship-life-halakah (walk) I am commanded to imitate Him. Hummm … does that mean I can pick and choose what parts I imitate, or do I really need to keep that command? If the former, then must I, too, break with traditions of my time that do not acknowledge the importance of humanity with gender-less souls? Which part of “imitate Christ” can I exclude?
I am also told that He is God and that God never changes. So, either He never changes or that’s a lie. Either He’s the same yesterday, today and forever and we’re to imitate Him or He’s changed and we’re not to imitate Him. But, my experience is that the picture of His attitude, treatment and inclusion toward/of women is quite different than the imitation of Him that is generally practiced today.
:::posted by Lisa on 7/23/2002 11:29:19 PM
On the "Pope Joan" thread, I recommend "Paul: A Novel" by Walter Wangerin, Jr. I don't quite buy all the details of his reconstruction, but it is a fascinating read. His treatment of the relationship between Lydia, Priscilla, and Paul is serious food for thought.
:::posted by Lance on 7/22/2002 08:31:15 AM
I want to thank gal328.org for this opportunity. I have been reading the archives and the love and support shown here are genuine and godly, thank you.
Vicki & Christina,
My heart aches for you as I hear the pain/betrayal both of you are feeling. Know that you are not alone! As I have the opportunity to speak to members in my very average, mid-western, main stream CofC I am SHOCKED at how many people (even elders and ministers) support gender equity in the Church. The complainers are just the noisy ones (ringing cymbals!) Remember, we have support here and in many other surprising places.
I pray for the day when we (or maybe our daughters as Patty said) will be free. Free to teach, free to testify, free to pray, without the fear and frustration we feel now.
Shelly
:::posted by Shelly on 7/20/2002 09:12:53 PM
Thanks for the encouragement, Patty. Good to hear from you.
Lisa, I read "Pope Joan" a few years ago -- enjoyed it quite a lot, though the ending was a bit over the top. But then the whole thing was quite unbelievable, wasn't it? One can hardly imagine a fact --a person! -- being edited out of history by those who want to protect the illusion of the status quo. Unless one reads the Christian Chronicle and noticed a certain minister whose job title was changed to "minister of youth" for no apparent reason! Makes me feel a little like Jack Nicholson in that movie with Tom Cruise: "You can't handle the truth!" [smile...sigh...smile again...]
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 7/20/2002 08:01:48 PM
This is a quick post to first of all say that I am here with you. I know that longing for gender justice can be very lonely at times. You may feel like you are all alone and that no change will ever happen, not just within your life time but that you can make no significant contribution. That just isn't true. How we raise our children will impact this issue far more than anything any one of us can say or do.
That said, I want to thank Katie for posting your 8 points on change. It greatly encouraged me. Our congregation fits right in line with what you posted. Recently the elders read a paper outlining some changes that they want to make, over time. We have begun to have women give their testimony in the Sunday morning service in a question answer format. The proposed changes are far from gender justice, but they will be getting people used to hearing women's voices where before they were silent. I just hope and pray that this will not stall. Thankfully God brought a man to our congregation who was instrumental in the change in Brookline as well as the two congregations in the Malibu area who have incorporated women at least partly in their services. He is now on our preaching team and working with the elders (along with others) to move forward in this area. God also blessed us with a small group where virtually all the members believe in gender justice. There is little restriction of my role, as a woman, in our small group meetings. In fact I am in charge of our worship time together.
This is something I never envisioned at our congregation, even a short time ago. In fact I left for a while, partly in pursuit of a place where I could worship as an equal. I found that at Stamford and was blessed by my time worshiping there. It was like a vacation for my spirit. Then God called me back here to St Louis and the Mid-West, where I never envisioned any cutting edge changes for 20+ years. He introduced me to a man who supported gender justice, who I then fell in love with an married. Even my Father-in-law, who is an elder at a conservative church, understands and supports gender justice. He can see that the lack of it silences half the church. Being in a small congregation, he can see well the importance of using every available person.
God is changing hearts and minds. He is working when we don't see it or know it. Be encouraged, those who have thrown up your hands in despair. The time is coming when people will wonder how the church could ever have supported a patriarchal version of Christianity. Prayer is not a useless option. It avails much!
Patty
:::posted by Patty on 7/20/2002 06:32:55 PM
Cristina,
Your post really touched me. I am so sorry that you are being held back in this way. I do not believe that this is by God's design. Sometimes, tradition brings people more comfort than God does (and that "people" is sometimes "me") . How sad! If we focus on man (or the church for that matter) rather than Christ, we will stumble.
If dialogue with the Campus Minister is possible, I urge you to try. We must keep the communication open. Sometimes, it helps me to try to see the other persons position. How did the minister feel when no guys offered to pray? Does he have the dilemna of trying to "please" an eldership that is stantchly traditional? How difficult is that for him? Is he currently pushing the envelope as far as he dares? Is he being bound up by tradition rather than freed in Christ? Being in bondage is awful! In my mind, none of these things justify the ongoing subjugation of women. However, if I am able to find some compassion (sometimes, I can and sometimes, I stay angry), then my discouragement lifts. Does this change the circumstnce? No. Does it change me in the circumstance? sometimes. I would like for that answer to be a simple "yes." Maybe someday.
Finally, you are not (not, not, not) being selfish! You are wanting to enter in fully. To be "unveiled". To enter the "holy of holies". God invites you. That's the tug you feel.
Here's my question. How do you answer God's call in an environment like this?
Lisa
P.S. As a side note, I'm an avid reader and I'm always wondering whose reading what. A novel (yes, a novel) entitled "Pope Joan" addresses the catholic church and women with historical fiction. It's excellent and I'm curious if anyone else has read it.
:::posted by Lisa on 7/20/2002 11:16:18 AM
1 Cor. 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. We were asked to read through 1 Corinthians with a special meditation on this verse for our summer devotionals with the campus ministry. Tonight we had some powerful testimonies by two of our sisters, with one of them asking for some specific prayers regarding repentance in her life. Please understand that we have been encouraged to share what God is doing in our lives at all of the devotionals, but tonight I spent much of the prayer time silently in tears asking for forgiveness from our Lord. After my sisters and others shared, the campus minister asked if any of the GUYS wanted to pray. He said it TWICE. One of the sisters who shared raised her hand and he said it again. The guys only could pray. He and I have had several discussions lately about women and the church, and I feel that he wanted to make sure that I understood that I was not allowed to pray at this time. He left before I had a chance to speak with him about it, and now I don't even know what to say. I was so hurt and discouraged. Why can we testify, but not pray? If we are to be silent, then we are to be silent. How is this strengthening, encouraging, edifying or uplifting to the women in this group? Am I missing something here? Am I being selfish and divisive? I ask for your advice and prayers, that I will keep my focus on Jesus and not let this become a stumbling block in my walk with Him and that I not lose faith. That at the end I may stand.
In Him, Cristina
:::posted by Cristina on 7/20/2002 01:14:31 AM
Katie, thanks for your post about why women sometimes resist change. It is important that we advocated for all women to be able to use their talents, whatever they may be. We shouldn't alienate people by judging jobs the way the world judges them. We also have to be patient with people. Sometimes I expect others to understand and be ready for right away what took me nine months of fervent study to understand. How quickly we forget!
:::posted by Indie on 7/17/2002 05:55:46 PM
Okay, at the risk of being accused of Forum Greed, I'll post another thought or two to get the discussion going.
(1) Mary Lou, that observation about the positive effects of the "division" of Paul and Barnabas is wonderful. A similar thought has occurred to me when I've heard people say they can't discuss a difficult issue at church because "The church won't survive." Since when did the body of Christ become so concerned about survival? The original body of Christ, Jesus himself, didn't think much about it. He recognized in faith that death is not the final answer to any earthly question or struggle. Churches who have suffered the pain of change on the gender issue have indeed died, or at least come to the brink of extinction -- and have experienced resurrection by the Spirit of God. Survival is not a New Testament motivation. Resurrection is, and for that you HAVE to die!
(2) Indie and Vicki, your exchange about women who are resistant to change points up something I've encountered a lot in my career. I call these women the "threatened beneficiaries," the ones who stand to benefit the most from change but are threatened somehow by the possibility. One possibility for how they feel comes to me from my mom and her contemporaries: that if I'm right about women being privileged and obligated to use their God-given talents for the church, then they have been wrong all these years. They have achieved much in the professional world and in their personal lives, but when they accepted their roles as communion-preparers and nursery-keepers at church they buried their talents and squandered opportunities.
See, there's an implied indictment in our push for change, even if we don't mean for there to be. If we don't mean to communicate that, we will have to be explicit about it. We will have to remember to say (because we believe it!) that the humble, behind-the-scenes, "women's" work that keeps a church running is exalted in the kingdom of God. Who is doing the Lord's work, the one who blesses and breaks the bread in front of the people of God, or the one who put the crackers on the doilies and washes the plates afterward? "The last shall be first and the first shall be last." In the kingdom of God, it's hard to tell!
peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 7/16/2002 10:06:47 PM
Thanks, Lance for your advance posting of a portion of Dale's article. Our " . . . ethical and evangelistic witness . . ." indeed.
And thanks, Vicki for your response. Let's keep asking the questions. Let's answer them without fear.
:::posted by Fritz on 7/14/2002 07:52:25 PM
David, I read your post right in the middle of preparing Dale Pauls' "Sons and Daughters" for the "Articles" page. Here is a paragraph that your story resonated with:So, slowly, each of us in church leadership roles started preparing to take whatever risks or sacrifices were necessary to be honest to the truths we knew. And to do it in good time—time that mattered—not after our witness would no longer really be needed. We came to see the trouble we would face if we did not change. Churches of Christ, custodians of marvelous gospel truths about personal rebirth and responsibility, would find their ethical and evangelistic witness crippled by being among the last to stand for a principle of justice that one day all will see. That all will one day see the justice of gender inclusiveness was not, and is not, in question; it is the witness of Churches of Christ that is at stake.
:::posted by Lance on 7/13/2002 08:33:09 AM
David - I'm so glad you shared your cool story! Unlike your friend, I grew up in this fellowship, but I still have just as many questions. Someday we'll have all of the answers.
Mary Lou - Thanks for the support, and for showing me a positive side of division. God can do great things with some of our biggest messes, can't He?
Safety among brothers/sisters seems a long way off to me right now. I feel every thing I say and do is being watched for criticism. (Gives new meaning to that VERY old song "There's an All-Seeing Eye watching you, watching you." Hope you don't know it. What a burden!)
Good night, my friends! - Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 7/13/2002 01:37:02 AM
Could a discussion of women's roles in the church be an evangelistic event? Some anecdotal evidence from only a few hours ago. I kid you not.
I boarded the train for the trip home. It was late, the end of a long day and a hard week. I sought solitude--away from families and their problems, away from a group of kids going to the city for a night out, away from the guy on his cell phone verbally abusing someone else, and away from the parents with kids. I slid into a spot I thought would be safe, finished off my soda, and opened my book.
Then he sat next to me. Then he peeked around to see the title of my book--Essays on Women in Earliest Christianity, Vol. II (1995, Osburn, Carroll, ed.). Then the questions began. I felt that God was testing me.
He politely got my attention and asked if he could see the book, and I handed it to him. He examined the book for a few minutes and handed it back. He asked me if I was familiar with the editor or with any of the writers, and I said that I was, and that, in fact, I had once taught the editor's daughters in a Sunday School class. He asked me of which church I was a part, and I said that I worship with the Church of Christ in West Islip out on Long Island. He asked me what distinguished Churches of Christ from other churches, and we talked about some of the usual answers to that question--a capella music, congregational autonomy, weekly communion, lay participation, and a "high view" of scripture, especially of the New Testament. He asked where the Churches of Christ were most heavily concentrated, and we talked about places like Tennessee, Texas, northern Alabama and other, mostly southern, locations. He asked me where there were Churches of Christ in our metropolitan area and I mentioned several. I gave him directions to the Manhattan church. He asked when the Churches of Christ were founded, and I mentioned Jerusalem, 33 A.D. (that got a laugh), and I mentioned a few other dates like Cane Ridge, 1801.
Then he asked me why the subject of women and their churches was such an important topic of concern. At that moment I wished I had a cell phone, for I would have called my friend Lance Pape, handed the phone to my seat-mate, and resumed my reading. Instead, I put the book down and settled in for the long haul. I said that women have been relegated to subordinate roles in the work and worship of their churches for too long, and churches experience exhausting and gut-wrenching periods of study and prayer when they examine the subject. He asked me what the arguments were on each side of the issue of women's participation in their churches, and I mentioned the egalitarian vs. hierarchical views of men and women as depicted in the scriptures. He asked me for examples of scriptures on each side, and I pointed him to the essay I had been reading--Rick Marrs, "In the Beginning: Male and Female (Gen. 1-3)," and I mentioned I Tim. 2:11-15 ("Let a woman learn in silence . . . I permit no woman . . .") He asked me for my own view, and I said that I believe that the use of a passage like I Tim 2 is often over-emphasized in our churches. I also said that I believe that the resulting treatment of women is not consistent the ministry of Jesus, especially as portrayed by Dr. Luke. He asked me how long I have held this view, and I said that this has been a recent realization for me. There wasn't enough time to tell that story.
He asked me how Luke portrays Jesus, and we talked about Jesus--how he welcomed and ministered to the poor, the outcast, and the marginalized, including women. I now felt that God had been using me.
I asked him about his background. He said that he had grown up in Russia. He also said that he was a non-believer.
It was time to get off the train and go our separate ways. I had forgotten to ask his name. I wish he had left me alone to my reading. I'm glad he didn't.
:::posted by Fritz on 7/13/2002 12:40:38 AM
Vicki,
Your messages really touched me. I have struggled with many of the same issues. The congregation where we currently worship is not ready to think about studying these issues yet, and it pains me to think they may not be anytime soon. The only way I have been able to find any sense of myself there has been to do as much as they will allow me to do, that I'm comfortable with. This has included planning fellowship events, speaking and leading singing at a Ladies Day (which I was very reluctant to do since I have generally found such events to be insipid, but this one was all right) and personal visitation. Of course, it has helped me immensely that my husband is very supportive and on-board with the idea of gender equality. Things could be very different if he were not. I will pray for you to find some peace in your situation.
I also have a comment about an earlier point that was raised, the question of division. It has occurred to me that while we fear and avoid division at great cost (for good reason, I think, since many of us have experienced disastrous church splits), the New Testament contains examples of division being a tool to spread the word further. For example, in Acts 15 when Paul and Barnabas disagreed about whether to take John Mark on another missionary journey (not even a doctrinal issue!), THEY PARTED COMPANY over it. Paul took Silas on his trip, and Barnabas and Mark went off in another direction. Yet there is no disapproval in the text, no hint of "well they had some division and nothing good ever comes of that." Instead the text merely notes that two mission efforts went forward instead of one. Can it be that we have developed the wrong attitude about division? Instead of assuming that a division will kill what little momentum we have, should we instead take an attitude that "perhaps those folks will be able to reach someone I cannot"? I don't know but I think we may be wrong to fear division so.
--Mary Lou Hutson
:::posted by Christopher on 7/12/2002 10:58:30 PM
Hey Vicki,
I don't think you ask too many questions. You bring up some interesting points. My husband and I have often discussed what sort of psychological thing is going on with CofC women that makes them act this way so often. I remember when I was at Harding one young women said in a Bible class that she was glad to submit because then her husband would take care of things and she wouldn't have to do anything. Sounds like not wanting to take responsibility to me. And once in a Church of Christ women's discussion group I heard several women saying that when they submit then they really have power over their husbands. This sounds a lot like your "subtle manipulation of men" point. I don't have any problem with submission when its done the biblical way (i.e. Eph. 5:21, mutual submission).
:::posted by Indie on 7/12/2002 03:01:28 PM
Thanks for all of the encouraging words! There are days when it seems I cannot stop the tears, and there are days when hope gives way to joy. Today was both.
I have been told that some of the strongest opponents to this kind of study are women. Are they afraid? If so, of what? Responsiblity? Is a tool used by women subtle manipulation of men? (Indeed, the most powerful people in the churches of Christ are wives of Elders.) Why would women feel it is OK for them to pray in a small group setting, but not during a worship?
My husband always says I ask too many questions, so I'll stop. - Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 7/12/2002 12:49:20 AM
Vicki and Katie,
I worship at a larger church and I must say that it is difficult for me to imagine any change of this magnitude. Sometimes, I think, "If I hear one more patriarchial comment from that pulpit, I'm going to stand up and scream!" (Thus far, I have restrained myself)
As to, the "in our lifetime," question....I've been reading a book about Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton called "Not For Ourselves Alone". These women labored most of their adult lives for women to receive the right to vote, yet neither one of them ever got to cast a ballot. But, without their efforts, would women even have the right to vote today? We must take the big picture view! This is not for ourselves alone. I influence who I can, whenever and where ever I can. I stay focused on what scripture says. I pray. I influence some more. It will happen someday!
Lisa
:::posted by Lisa on 7/11/2002 07:48:23 PM
Vicki, Thanks for putting your feelings "on paper" in this safe place. My road hasn't had these hurdles in it. Yet, in a real sense, when part of the family of God is ignored or silenced, the whole family suffers. May God minister to you in deep places that you might know, despite how others might make you feel, that you are God's beloved--redeemed by Christ and gifted by the Spirit. Your faith journey, as you endure, is heroic. Mike
:::posted by Mike on 7/11/2002 04:56:16 PM
Vicki, your post cut me to the heart. I just spent a weekend with my Mom and Dad, who attend the C of C in small-town Texas where I grew up. I found myself telling my mom outright, "I don't think it's going to happen at your church in your lifetime." It broke her heart to hear aloud what she already felt to be true. Their minister recently gave a series of lessons on "How to Convert People to the Church of Christ" -- not to Christ! -- and included pointers on how to prove from scripture that communion can only be taken on Sunday morning. The question of gender justice hits a congregation like that way, way, way too early in its theological development, like a pregnant woman going into premature labor. There are about five thousand steps between "The KJV is the only true Bible" and "women and men are gifted equally by God's Holy Spirit."
But perhaps my faith is too small. Just because I've only seen it happen one way (roughly like the 7 or 8 characteristics I posted a couple of nights ago) doesn't mean God can't do it other ways in other congregations. Someday perhaps we will post three or four or even a dozen models for how such a radical change can occur in congregations of all shapes and sizes. God is better at thinking these things up than we are. Hang in there, sister. -- peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 7/11/2002 02:34:46 PM
Vicki, I hurt with you. When I was introduced to Christ almost 12 years ago the congregation I ended up at was very similar. I wasn't even really taught about leadership because it wasn't a "concern" of mine. I left the church and renounced Christianity in any form for about 8 years after that experience. I returned (to a different Church) - 2 1/2 years ago because of the call of Christ and I know that amazing things are happening. As the song says, "This is the season of a new anointing." - Cristina
:::posted by Cristina on 7/11/2002 12:13:42 AM
The blogger.com servers have been down most of the afternoon preventing any posts. No doubt, this explains why no one has responded to Vicki's heartbreaking post with a word of encouragement.
In response to this problem, I have upgraded the forum to the "pro" (read "not free") version of blogger which will give us much more reliable service and other features. The "publish" feature is now functioning properly.
There has been some confusion about registering and posting to the forum. Technically, our forum is a “blog” (web log). Those who wish to join should send an e-mail with their first and last name to forum@gal328.org. In turn, they will receive an invitation e-mail from Blogger.com which explains how to make posts. Basically, you follow the link in the invitation e-mail and then enter a user name and password at the Blogger site. For convenience you should check the "remember me" box when you sign in so that you won’t have to enter your user name and password every time you want to post. Once you get to the "edit your blog" page it is a good idea to bookmark the page for easy access in the future. I'm also going to look into adding a link to the "edit your blog" page at the top of the forum page. Clear as mud? Don't hesitate to send me a note at lance@gal328.org if you have any questions.
:::posted by Lance on 7/10/2002 04:01:19 PM
I found Katie's observations interesting, but discouraging. Longevity does not exist in my congregation of less than 5 years. Our elders are not unified among themselves, and do not have a relationship with our minister that exhibits mutual trust and respect. They were incapable of studying women in God's church and through His eyes more than 4 sessions. They think the KJV is the original text! I have been treated
as an outsider by these elders, even as the enemy, for respectfully requesting a church study on women's roles. I have been accused by them of trying to push for change, and split my beloved church family. At no point did I ever request, much less push for, change. Only study. My heart is broken. I stand silent because of their threats. I voluntarily put the yoke back on.
- Vicki
:::posted by Vicki on 7/10/2002 01:41:50 PM
Dale Pauls has been following this discussion and wrote me to report that he has just completed a detailed account of the process at the Stamford C of C (Stamford, CT). It will be posted to the "Articles" page soon under the title "Sons and Daughters: Hearing Women's Voices at the Stamford Church of Christ." He is also preparing a print copy for anyone who is interested.
:::posted by Lance on 7/10/2002 01:40:59 PM
About getting off of "dead center," as Tom puts it, here are a few late-night observations. (It's late for me, okay? My kids have been in bed for hours.) Call this a list of "What Churches of Christ Practicing Gender Justice Have In Common."
1. They have a long-time preacher who is trusted by his congregation personally and professionally. He is known to be a student, a pray-er, and a humble servant. He has put in years of hard work as a pastor and preacher, and the families of the congregation are grateful for his longevity.
2. Several or even many years into his ministry at this congregation, the long-time preacher becomes the student of theological anthropology (a.k.a. "women's roles") on behalf of the congregation because he has an inkling that something is not right with the old way. Maybe he is prompted by the dissatisfaction of some within the community with the status quo. Maybe he is prompted by the Spirit. Maybe these are the same thing.
3. The preacher has always worked closely with elders (or some other form of church leadership) who are in no way his adversaries. The shepherd-preacher relationship is NOT the adversarial Congressional-Presidential system of checks and balances. It is a relationship, rather, of mutual trust and respect. The preacher begins to talk to the elders about his "inklings" years before anything "happens."
4. The preacher and elders study and pray, pray and study, for a long time before going to the congregation. They all join together in the teaching of the congregation over time. The congregation struggles to hold two ideas in tension: first, that they are full participants in the life and decisions of the church; and second, that ultimately the shepherds (elders) have responsibility for this flock and will heed God's call regardless of the congregation's comfort level.
5. Phone calls, small group meetings, and home visits are employed by the shepherds as pastoral tools, but not to poll the congregation about what they want. Theology By Concensus has not, in my experience, been the means by which congregations have taken bold, Spirit-led steps concerning gender justice or any other matter.
6. At some point the shepherds issue a public written statement as to the theological warrant for gender justice. They assure the congregation that the practice of the church will change slowly over time, even several years, so that people will have time to adjust. Some people leave the congregation because there is the prospect of any change at all; others leave because even a guarantee of incremental change toward a goal of full inclusion is not fast enough.
7. These congregations suffered. They suffered when they lost friends and relationships with family members. Many of the individuals in the congregations suffered without even being fully convinced themselves that these changes were for the best, but they trusted their shepherds and their preacher to have struggled with the Spirit's help to reach the best conclusion. The members who are left when the transition ends have a sense of having survived something very Important together. They celebrate their survival every week, recognizing their own story in the death-burial-resurrection story of Jesus' first body.
8. These congregations, the ones who actually make the change, are small. I have absolutely no idea how a big congregation is supposed to do it.
I've worshiped with the Big Three -- Brookline, Cahaba Valley, and West Islip -- where full inclusion of women is the theory and the practice. I've observed and participated in Stamford's transition. I've been a member of a congregation that tried to get off dead-center and couldn't, probably for lack of longevity and trust in its preacher and leaders.
Sorry for the long post. Moderator, please don't kick me off! Peace -- Katie
:::posted by Katie on 7/09/2002 10:27:13 PM
The question or issue of division is an interesting one to me. The claim is made that to push for gender justice is to push for division. However, as exemplified in Tom's situation, are we not being divisive if we don't push for gender justice? Tom watched as "sisters in Christ left the C of C in frustration and tears." Is this not, in effect, being divisive?
:::posted by jch on 7/09/2002 05:47:34 PM
Cristina,
I hear you; there are brothers who want to see our sisters treated as the joint-heirs they are. I find it ironic that to push for a more scripturally sustainable view of gender is considered selfish and divisive, but to refuse to discuss the matter is not. I have heard similar arguments used in my southern home state to justify segregation of congregations by race.
I have seen sisters in Christ leave the C of C in frustration and tears, and who knows how many we have never reached in the first place. I don't want my daughter to be treated as a second class citizen by those who should be encouraging her to use her God-given abilities.
Yes, Lance, the card gets played exactly as you describe. And I think those who play it aren't so much disingenous as fearful. I have read all those links you mentioned, as well as Caroll Osburn's and Robert Rowland's books. If I could just get some others to read them!
-Tom
:::posted by TWD on 7/09/2002 05:33:22 PM
When I mentioned some of my convictions to a brother the other day, he told me that I was being selfish. What a blow! I am so thankful for this site and now this forum. In Him, Cristina
:::posted by Cristina on 7/09/2002 05:15:22 PM
Thanks for the positive feedback on the new look, T. I confess that it may have come at the cost of a couple of neglected diapers on my part. ;) There is actually a pretty good story behind it. A certain female preacher that I know was invited to preach at Stamford C of C (Stamford, CT) and donated the honorarium toward the purchase of new web design software.
Unfortunately, the “division” card is usually the first played and it almost always takes the form “them, not me.” As in, “Personally, I am fine with at least discussing it, but there are some in our midst who will be offended and alienated.” In my experience, it is a very rare thing to actually meet the person who will own responsibility for preventing an open discussion. If this is your experience, perhaps it would help to frankly expose this irony.
I often hear from supporters who are paralyzed by concern about the pain of change. I guess my own feeling is that there is plenty of pain to go around. In other words, it is high time that someone gave voice to the pain of the status quo. That’s the value of pieces like Ann Evankovich’s Why I Left the Church of Christ and Why I Returned.
This is all about the important difference between thinking that gender justice is “okay” and discerning in this so-called issue a moral imperative that warrants suffering. See Katie’s In Our Lifetime? for more on this important distinction. While I’m plugging site resources, let me recommend Two Churches, Two Journeys which describes the change process at Cahaba Valley (Birmingham, AL) and Brookline (Boston, MA).
:::posted by Lance on 7/09/2002 04:09:40 PM
Here is a report from the Florence, AL area. We are firmly rooted in the Middle Ages at almost every church. I would like some input, as T Dockery asks, on how to see some movement in this matter. Any one seen or employed a strategy that is effective?
:::posted by Bob on 7/09/2002 03:05:41 PM
I guess the $64,000 question for me is, "how does a Church of Christ congregation, even a somewhat progressive one, get off of top-dead-center on this?" It seems like we can't even get sustained discussion going because of fear of division.
BTW, I like your new look.
:::posted by TWD on 7/09/2002 02:32:40 PM
A Texan Church-of-Christ-er has a daughter going to Lehigh University (Bethlehem, Pennsylvania) in the fall. He asked me for a church recommendation. He subscribes to the website and is looking for a congregation where his daughter will be able to participate, or at least not made to feel like a second-class citizen. I'm not familiar with the area. Any ideas, anybody? peace -- Katie Hays
:::posted by Katie on 7/09/2002 01:04:14 PM
Welcome to the gal328 forum. My name is Joe Hays and I'll be serving as the moderator of this forum. Remember, "the purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and mutual support and edification among those who strive toward gender justice in Churches of Christ." I hope this forum will prove helpful to all those who participate. Let the blogging begin.
:::posted by jch on 7/08/2002 05:06:25 PM
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